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  1. #1
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    Default Frien with a Mitchell's Mauser

    My friend's friend came by to show his MM.... A little about me: I am a wood worker and I collect K98's. I have to describe this friend of a friends MM: I am convinced it is a TEAK wook stock. The barrel and action have enough correct, non fooled with markings to seem legit. The overall lenght is right. The bolt is 7/58:. the thing has an M48 rear sight leaf. the bands are mis matched. To the eye this is one beautiful rifle! Howwever, it appears to be the most piece of crap I've ever seen since it was a fortune and touted as a collector's item...He has no pics (maybe I can gt some eventually). This thing looks like a K98-m48 conglomeration...My question is ...Is it possible to mismatch 98 an 48n in the same platform? I hate to tell him he has a piece of crap, though a great lookin shooter. How can I let him down easy?
    Last edited by mustang69; 02-07-2012 at 01:40 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Convince him to join the Gunboards. The rest will take care of itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Othais View Post
    Convince him to join the Gunboards. The rest will take care of itself.
    I will take you advice! He just needs to be introduced sloely into the world of collecting firearms...He ain't gun dumb. Just needs toslow down and learn..Thanks for you advice..
    NRA LIFE MEMBER
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  4. #4
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    I've had to do this with a number of friends that get into milsurps as a result of befriending me. First, I don't belittle their purchases, ever.(Unless it's someone I feel comfortable enough to give out a little ribbing as a result of being on the recieving end on occasion) Second, I will provide a more correct example for their inspection if I happen to have one, or locate the information for them to review on the internet. Third and most importantly I offer a chance to go shoot, as you never know, they might just have an accurate shooter that makes them feel a little better about their purchase, and they can at least brag a little about that.

    Maybe they got it cheap enough to justify keeping it as a shooter. Once they are armed with more knowledge it's now up to them to decide if they want to keep their less historically correct example, based upon how it shoots and what they gave for it, or resell it for funds to put towards a more correct example if that's truly what they are after.

    Telling someone that they've purchased a mixmaster butchered peice of crap can be a direct turn-off for someone looking to get into collecting milsurps. Don't bewilder them with too much info though, as that can be just as daunting to a new collector. Just ease them in the proper direction, assuming they even care to obtain a correct specimen. I may not always hold out for a museum grade example, but more times than not I'm at least armed with the knowledge of what to look for assuming something turns up at a good price.

    I do have to admit that I find all the German Mauser codes and subtle differences among different manufacturers mindblowing. Trying to keep up with which codes, years, s/n's are more desireable than others can be a science just unto German Mausers. When I actually stumble upon K98's I basically look for all matching numbers, has the stock been sanded, does it have Russian capture markings, are all the parts truly K98 parts, etc. I have not had any luck finding a decent K98 locally for what I feel is a garage sale deal. I wouldn't even rule out a numbers matching Russian capture with a nice bore, little to no peening, and a decent stock but I have had no luck with that either.

    I can remember several years ago when Military Gun Supply in Ft. Worth, Tx had several walls full of Russian capture K98's in various condition. I should have purchased a couple/three decent examples then until I found a proper non-RC K98, or to at least fund the purchase of one. But of course, back then, people were poo-pooing the RC's almost as badly as the Mitchel's Mausers.

    Dale

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    Does anyone know a good source for all these very minor variances? If there isn't a "one-stop-shop" for this info I'd really like to start gathering data and images for my site. It would make a huge, but good article.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tenntex32 View Post
    I've had to do this with a number of friends that get into milsurps as a result of befriending me. First, I don't belittle their purchases, ever.(Unless it's someone I feel comfortable enough to give out a little ribbing as a result of being on the recieving end on occasion) Second, I will provide a more correct example for their inspection if I happen to have one, or locate the information for them to review on the internet. Third and most importantly I offer a chance to go shoot, as you never know, they might just have an accurate shooter that makes them feel a little better about their purchase, and they can at least brag a little about that.

    Maybe they got it cheap enough to justify keeping it as a shooter. Once they are armed with more knowledge it's now up to them to decide if they want to keep their less historically correct example, based upon how it shoots and what they gave for it, or resell it for funds to put towards a more correct example if that's truly what they are after.

    Telling someone that they've purchased a mixmaster butchered peice of crap can be a direct turn-off for someone looking to get into collecting milsurps. Don't bewilder them with too much info though, as that can be just as daunting to a new collector. Just ease them in the proper direction, assuming they even care to obtain a correct specimen. I may not always hold out for a museum grade example, but more times than not I'm at least armed with the knowledge of what to look for assuming something turns up at a good price.

    I do have to admit that I find all the German Mauser codes and subtle differences among different manufacturers mindblowing. Trying to keep up with which codes, years, s/n's are more desireable than others can be a science just unto German Mausers. When I actually stumble upon K98's I basically look for all matching numbers, has the stock been sanded, does it have Russian capture markings, are all the parts truly K98 parts, etc. I have not had any luck finding a decent K98 locally for what I feel is a garage sale deal. I wouldn't even rule out a numbers matching Russian capture with a nice bore, little to no peening, and a decent stock but I have had no luck with that either.

    I can remember several years ago when Military Gun Supply in Ft. Worth, Tx had several walls full of Russian capture K98's in various condition. I should have purchased a couple/three decent examples then until I found a proper non-RC K98, or to at least fund the purchase of one. But of course, back then, people were poo-pooing the RC's almost as badly as the Mitchel's Mausers.

    Dale
    tenntex, Thanks for the reply. I would never tell anyone their rifle is a piece of crap. However, this one , although beautiful, is not what he thinks it ia as a collectors piece. I will, of course, steer him towards the more valuable ones because he wants to have them increase in value. It's a shame because he has the funds to rescue some very fine rifles if I can convince him to do his homework....
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    There were a number of people who thought M48 rifles had teak stocks. Somebody finally had the wood analyzed and found it's european elm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regis Rex View Post
    There were a number of people who thought M48 rifles had teak stocks. Somebody finally had the wood analyzed and found it's european elm.
    I HAVE HEARD THAT IT IS ELM...AFTER A SERIES OF SIMPLE TEST i HAVE FOUND THE STOCK TO BE INCONCLUSIVE AS TO THE WOOD. hOWEVER, IT LEANS TOWARD TEAK WHICH IF ORIGIONAL TO STOCK WAS NEVER USUED BY THR GERMANS. iF ELM, IT WAS NOT USED IN 1941 AS THIS RIFLE IS A BNZ41...
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    There were quite a few reports of MM's using m48 actions and passing them off as German k98ks. I can't serm to find the links anymore since they are pretty old but I remember clearly that people were rightfully appalled and upset.
    WTB SVT 40, FINN rework or Soviet. Must have MINT bore. Or a receiver or barreled receiver.

    Looking for a late round hole Mauser Oberndorf complete matching bolt, serial #9547.

    Looking for a original matching BNZ 45 "T" block bolt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MauserGuy85 View Post
    There were quite a few reports of MM's using m48 actions and passing them off as German k98ks. I can't serm to find the links anymore since they are pretty old but I remember clearly that people were rightfully appalled and upset.
    Yeah, after some measurements I think the action is m48. I have seen my share of misleading ads in my life but MM takes the cake. The "offical" paper work that came with it would probably amuse a lawyer. Shame is not the product so much as the way it is represented and the way high cost. After many suggestios from the board members I have shown him how to go slow and educate hinself about firearm collecting...
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  11. #11
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    A trailer from America's hit show, "Ow! My Balls!":
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAg1r...eature=related
    http://k98kforum.com/
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambone View Post
    A trailer from America's hit show, "Ow! My Balls!":
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAg1r...eature=related
    Lol
    WTB SVT 40, FINN rework or Soviet. Must have MINT bore. Or a receiver or barreled receiver.

    Looking for a late round hole Mauser Oberndorf complete matching bolt, serial #9547.

    Looking for a original matching BNZ 45 "T" block bolt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang69 View Post
    Yeah, after some measurements I think the action is m48. I have seen my share of misleading ads in my life but MM takes the cake. The "offical" paper work that came with it would probably amuse a lawyer. Shame is not the product so much as the way it is represented and the way high cost. After many suggestios from the board members I have shown him how to go slow and educate hinself about firearm collecting...
    You can also look at the front action screw..if locking screw is behind..intermediate length M48..if its ahead...full length K98 (there are other types of rifles that dont follow this pattern but between M48 and K98k it is always true)

    What code is stamped on the receiver???..Dont think I've heard of Mitchells actually stamping codes

    The Yugoslavs never used Teak on anything..Ever Source is Branko Bogdanovic through 'Nug ...the Teak mis info started with Marstar or whatever dumbo told them

    EDIT:...reread your post regarding BNZ41 as the code..

    What were your measurements?? If you have a scrubbed M48 action that Mitchells applied a German code to..Well even the awkward wording of the Mitchells provenance letter couldnt make that less than an actionable fraud

    I highly doubt that is the case and I think you need to remeasure ..a few small parts swapped yes, sure..but not the receiver Try a K98k bolt in it, another simple test as it wont work in any M48 series rifle

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    http://k98kforum.com/
    K98k Research and Reference Forum
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambone View Post
    I love Idiocracy. And these clips are oh so applicable here.
    "Wir Deutsche fürchten Gott, aber sonst nichts in der Welt!”
    --Otto von Bismarck, 6.2.1888

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    Check out this old thread. I hope your buddy didn't buy sovietsteve's m48 remarked bnz41....

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...CHELLS-MAUSERS!!!!

    Try to post up some pics.... It will be be very interesting to see what's the story with your buddies rifle.....
    WTB SVT 40, FINN rework or Soviet. Must have MINT bore. Or a receiver or barreled receiver.

    Looking for a late round hole Mauser Oberndorf complete matching bolt, serial #9547.

    Looking for a original matching BNZ 45 "T" block bolt.

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    The reciever is marked BNZ41 and the waff eagles look real. The bolt is (by action screw measurement advice) a m48 but I am stumped on the stock...I don't think friend really cares but i am courious...It is a dense light tight grained wood. At first glance it looks laminated but it is not.....I appreciate you guys assistance . Rifle is a good shooter but I just can't get over MM decriptions of it being a RC 98 all matching....Anyway friend is happy and that's all that really counts...Thanks again. Like I said, there is BNZ41 stamped on top of the reciever and obo on the left side of reciever......He can't do pics but next time I see him I will take and post pics......
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    Quote Originally Posted by MauserGuy85 View Post
    Check out this old thread. I hope your buddy didn't buy sovietsteve's m48 remarked bnz41....

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...CHELLS-MAUSERS!!!!

    Try to post up some pics.... It will be be very interesting to see what's the story with your buddies rifle.....
    I read the link ya sent. I think MM can get away with it. The paper work accprding to my friend says...K98-M48 but the description only talks about Germany.....Anyway he lives and he learns..Think I will encourage him to at least contacy MM and complain..As I said, He paid for a collectoers grade fifle but I guess collectors grade can mean many things...The price was over $600....
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang69 View Post
    The reciever is marked BNZ41 and the waff eagles look real. The bolt is (by action screw measurement advice) a m48 but I am stumped on the stock...I don't think friend really cares but i am courious...It is a dense light tight grained wood. At first glance it looks laminated but it is not.....I appreciate you guys assistance . Rifle is a good shooter but I just can't get over MM decriptions of it being a RC 98 all matching....Anyway friend is happy and that's all that really counts...Thanks again. Like I said, there is BNZ41 stamped on top of the reciever and obo on the left side of reciever......He can't do pics but next time I see him I will take and post pics......
    If that is the case then it's a MM restamped fake. Waffenampts hand stamps can be reverse duplicated from original stampings for as little as 80 bucks a pop. 80 bucks each without discount or negotiation yet. The more you have made the bigger they discount. The ones made that are computer analyzed from an actual part can be copied to 99% exact match. Im not going to say much more on details because I don't want to give possible humpers ideas but my old high school buddy is a supervising machinist at a company similar to infiniti stamps. We were actually talking about fake k98ks since he also collects. The conversation evolved into pricing and overall do-ability of making correct looking new hand stamps. He said for a $500-600 hundred bucks you can can get an entire set made with copied serials, WaA's and firing proof. Now if you provide let's say a complete matching sights barrel then all the markings can be duplicated with 99% accuracy. We're talking depth, style, impression..... His words... " a total expert could not tell the difference because they are perfect copies".

    Now obviously there are still many ways to spot the fakery even with perfect copied hand stamps..... Again I'm not gonna share because I don't want humpers to cover their tracks but the expert collectors know what I mean. I'll just say roll marked receiver for one.

    My whole point in this is that having duplicate "perfect" hand stamps made for Mitchell's or a private humper will cost them $500-600 and with one fakely stamped m48 they can make that exact money back or make money on it. With fake stamped rifle number 2 they are making all profit. What's $600 for a fake bnz41 stamp set for Mitchells? That's loose change in a piggy bank in the corner of Don's office.

    With all the fake stuff I've been seeing lately... It's shocking and a serious destructive issue in k98k collecting. This stuff has been happening for years upon years... It's not new and with all the new excellent reference works out there it really gives humpers nice blueprints on how to fake stuff properly.

    If your sure the Bnz 41 receiver is intermediate length from the measurements then rest assured that it's a restamped fake!! No question about it. No other possibilities. Period.
    WTB SVT 40, FINN rework or Soviet. Must have MINT bore. Or a receiver or barreled receiver.

    Looking for a late round hole Mauser Oberndorf complete matching bolt, serial #9547.

    Looking for a original matching BNZ 45 "T" block bolt.

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    I went through this whole thread again and am still not sure what we're talking about. Your friend has a MM which is actually an M48 stamped BNZ41 and sold as a K98k? That's a new one on me, even from Mitchell. That reaches a whole new level of fakery, even from them. Wow, Don Mitchell must have balls the size of basketballs to try to pull that. That one belongs in the Mitchell Mauser Museum Of Fakery (MMMOF).

    As to the stock wood, the general consensus is that it's elm. Why would the Yugos go to the trouble of importing expensive teak wood to make rifle stocks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regis Rex View Post
    I went through this whole thread again and am still not sure what we're talking about. Your friend has a MM which is actually an M48 stamped BNZ41 and sold as a K98k? That's a new one on me, even from Mitchell. That reaches a whole new level of fakery, even from them. Wow, Don Mitchell must have balls the size of basketballs to try to pull that. That one belongs in the Mitchell Mauser Museum Of Fakery (MMMOF).

    As to the stock wood, the general consensus is that it's elm. Why would the Yugos go to the trouble of importing expensive teak wood to make rifle stocks?
    I will get him to let me get pics in a few days...This rifle is really confusing so far.....At least the thing shoots...
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    Quote Originally Posted by MauserGuy85 View Post
    Check out this old thread. I hope your buddy didn't buy sovietsteve's m48 remarked bnz41....

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...CHELLS-MAUSERS!!!!

    Try to post up some pics.... It will be be very interesting to see what's the story with your buddies rifle.....
    Soviet Steve had no rifle..see post #s 17 and 26 for some real insight


    The wood you are describing is likely just walnut..I'll say again the Yugoslavs according to Branko Bogdanovic author and historian for Zastava never used Teak..M48 series rifles were sold without the stocks and the receiving country/entity could have stocked them with whatever they wanted..however I've never seen or heard of any of them using teak

    Your friend doesnt need pics..he just needs to look at the action screws and tell us if the locking screw is forward or aft..And could you just give your "M48 Measurements" intead of being vague about it???
    Last edited by painterjohn; 02-08-2012 at 04:40 PM.

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    "Soviet Steve had no rifle..see post #s 17 and 26 for some real insight"

    Ahhh I really see the insight there in the posts (full sarcasm). Thanks for proving whether or not sovietsteve actually humped a m48 rifle, wanted info to fake one or purchased a MM m48/98k humper....

    I see absolutely no evidence/proof in your "really insightful" posts that verifies your statement that "he never Had no rifle". I see his humped/renumbered/ fake stamped stuff on gunbroker quite regularly so he is more than capable of doing one IMO...

    This in turn through speculation means that if some Joe Shmo out of Buffalo, NY can do Hump jobs at home, then why can't a big business company/firearm importer who is known for humping rifles and falsely advertising? They have the financial means, equipment and marketing department to certainly create humped rifes and sell well so why not a few fake stamped M48's?

    Ill leave it at that as I really see no need to continue discussing anything else with you, but to be unbiased and disregard our past differences...

    I will agree that it's not teak though, John! It could also possibly be ELM instead of Walnut though.... Without pics we all can just write pages and pages of speculation...

    "Your friend doesnt need pics..he just needs to look at the action screws and tell us if the locking screw is forward or aft..And could you just give your "M48 Measurements" intead of being vague about it???"

    I totally agree with the above statement as well. If it does prove to be an m48 action, then detailed pics are a must!!
    Last edited by MauserGuy85; 02-09-2012 at 12:51 AM.
    WTB SVT 40, FINN rework or Soviet. Must have MINT bore. Or a receiver or barreled receiver.

    Looking for a late round hole Mauser Oberndorf complete matching bolt, serial #9547.

    Looking for a original matching BNZ 45 "T" block bolt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MauserGuy85 View Post
    Check out this old thread. I hope your buddy didn't buy sovietsteve's m48 remarked bnz41....

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...CHELLS-MAUSERS!!!!

    Try to post up some pics.... It will be be very interesting to see what's the story with your buddies rifle.....
    This is a banned member here... who has terrible feedback on GBroker and is a known humper...

    But you hope that the OP didnt wind up with his rifle???..Did Mitchells buy it from old soviet Steve and then resell it with the box and letter of provenance LOL ; )

    The fact is he was known to some before that post and when pushed came up with ZERO pics ZERO..hence my insightful call out...

    He was called out again on that very same rifle here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...t-away-with-it


    Mauserguy Quote: I see absolutely no evidence/proof in you "really insightful" posts that verifies your statement that "he never Had no rifle"

    I guess if you want to believe it existed on the mere word of someone who you now at this later date admit is a serial humper ..then well..guess that will be a good example of your insightfulness-id-ness

    I suppose it might also be considered insightful to put forth that Mitchells is willing and capable of humping markings..but its common knowledge here and again..I've never seen a humped German receiver code

    Have you Mauserguy???

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    Mustang69,

    I wouldnt be surprised by much coming from MM but I am getting confused by some of the info your providing

    Quote Originally Posted by mustang69 View Post
    The barrel and action have enough correct, non fooled with markings to seem legit. The overall lenght is right. The bolt is 7/58:.
    combined with this: "Yeah, after some measurements I think the action is m48."

    If the bolt was standard length it wouldnt fit in an M48 action..Did you try or can you try one of Your K98k bolts in it???

    and this: "The paper work accprding to my friend says...K98-M48 but the description only talks about Germany.."

    ..thats the "letter of provenance sent out with the M48 series rifles seen here:Click image for larger version. 

Name:	pix034255609.jpg 
Views:	17 
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ID:	512003

    ..the one sent with the K98k is different

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    Quote Originally Posted by painterjohn View Post
    This is a banned member here... who has terrible feedback on GBroker and is a known humper...

    But you hope that the OP didnt wind up with his rifle???..Did Mitchells buy it from old soviet Steve and then resell it with the box and letter of provenance LOL ; )

    The fact is he was known to some before that post and when pushed came up with ZERO pics ZERO..hence my insightful call out...

    He was called out again on that very same rifle here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...t-away-with-it


    Mauserguy Quote: I see absolutely no evidence/proof in you "really insightful" posts that verifies your statement that "he never Had no rifle"

    I guess if you want to believe it existed on the mere word of someone who you now at this later date admit is a serial humper ..then well..guess that will be a good example of your insightfulness-id-ness

    I suppose it might also be considered insightful to put forth that Mitchells is willing and capable of humping markings..but its common knowledge here and again..I've never seen a humped German receiver code

    Have you Mauserguy???
    John, in the interest of avoiding anymore "public jabs" between you and I, I'm going to not reply to 50% of your post. Honestly its not because I dont have anything to say but rather that it's just not worth it. The OP has not presented us with any detailed evidence or photos of anything. Everyone here is just speculating and discussing. If you find my posts to offensive or not true in any way then unfortunately there is nothing I can do to alleviate your pains. I provide pics, links, reference works on a regular basis and my pm box has new messages daily by members of all types of status asking for advice, parts help, opinions, etc. To be honest I have even received quite a few concerning you and your jabs towards me during our last spat. With those folks saying that they don't want to be publicly involved but that you are a "............" So please in the interest of not bringing up our rc k98s shellac removal differences into this thread, let's just quit it.

    "But you hope that the OP didnt wind up with his rifle???..Did Mitchells buy it from old soviet Steve and then resell it with the box and letter of provenance LOL ; )"

    When I posted post #16 the OP had not made it clear IMO that his buddy actually purchased his MM from MM. It wasn't until post #18 that mustang69 made it clear that his buddy purchased a collectors grade $600 from Mitchell's. Can an individual purchase a Mitchell's Mauser from a private individual who still had the box and letter it came with? In post #10 the op gave some hints but to me it wasn't clear where his buddy got the rifle exactly. There are at least two live auctions (which I cant post) going for MM's on gunbroker being sold by private individuals and they include the box, accessories and letter of authenticity...

    "I suppose it might also be considered insightful to put forth that Mitchells is willing and capable of humping markings..but its common knowledge here and again..I've never seen a humped German receiver code

    Have you Mauserguy???"


    Have I seen k98k receiver code hump jobs??? Thats a big Hell YES!

    1.) humped receiver code and date recent BCD45.....
    http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread....ed-on-this-k98

    2.) forum member Award's bsw Norwegian Mario stock that grew into a bsw matching sniper. The faker humped the serials and codes (pics are gone by now so can't be 100% on the code humping but receiver serial humping is a criminal offense and was done).
    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-into-a-sniper

    3.) Recent posting of a bcd45 made from a post war Czech k98. Bill and mrfarb verified as fake receiver code stampings.
    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...what-did-I-get

    I think these 3 examples should suffice with 1 and 3 being the biggest recent examples. I won't even dare speak of the ones I've seen at shows over the years and auction sites because to you I assume you would say that I'm a "liar who has no proof", but I think I have shown now that average joes can fake restamped Mauser 98s and sell them as the real thing. Until I see pics of the OP's buddies rifle, I won't comment on Mitchell's restamping m48s to appear as k98ks. I'll wait for the photographic evidence to do the talking if it turns out to be an intermediate action m98
    Last edited by MauserGuy85; 02-09-2012 at 03:09 AM.
    WTB SVT 40, FINN rework or Soviet. Must have MINT bore. Or a receiver or barreled receiver.

    Looking for a late round hole Mauser Oberndorf complete matching bolt, serial #9547.

    Looking for a original matching BNZ 45 "T" block bolt.

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    ..more insight from MG..Are there really Humped K98k receiver markings ?!?! whoa !

    obviously I'm referring to MM humped receiver markings..I mean the c'mon..thats what the thread is all about

    Didnt realize it was a MM???? Whaaa?? Heres the first sentence from the first post "My friend's friend came by to show his MM.."

    OH MG ..you dont need to have a box, paperwork, know where it came from, document how many hands its gone through ..all MM have the MM import mark..surprised you didnt know that

    So your answer is(I'll answer for you ; ) ..NO.. I have not seen an MM with a faked receiver marking..I can only link the Banned members post regarding one that was never shown and pretend that this discussion was one on General humping instead of MM humping and then pretend I've made an actual point

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    Quote Originally Posted by painterjohn View Post
    ..more insight from MG..Are there really Humped K98k receiver markings ?!?! whoa !

    obviously I'm referring to MM humped receiver markings..I mean the c'mon..thats what the thread is all about

    Didnt realize it was a MM???? Whaaa?? Heres the first sentence from the first post "My friend's friend came by to show his MM.."

    OH MG ..you dont need to have a box, paperwork, know where it came from, document how many hands its gone through ..all MM have the MM import mark..surprised you didnt know that

    So your answer is(I'll answer for you ; ) ..NO.. I have not seen an MM with a faked receiver marking..I can only link the Banned members post regarding one that was never shown and pretend that this discussion was one on General humping instead of MM humping and then pretend I've made an actual point
    Please re-read my post and take a breath before posting....

    As usual your jabs are rearing up again.

    The thread title is "Frien with a Mitchell's Mauser. The first sentance is "My friend's friend came by to show his MM...."

    Neither the thread title nor the OP's entire first post states where his friend of a friend got the MM. There are no pics or sound details for that matter. I never said I didn't realize it was a Mitchell's, I said that I did not know where it was purchased from. From mitchell's directly or from some previous owner.

    "I suppose it might also be considered insightful to put forth that Mitchells is willing and capable of humping markings..but its common knowledge here and again..I've never seen a humped German receiver code

    Have you Mauserguy???"

    You asked if I've seen humped German receiver codes and I answered "Yes" with proof. If you were "referring" to MM receiver code restamps then you should of asked that. You asked a general question. I'm not your personal mind reader, I can only go forth and answer from what and how you ask a question.

    This is just ridiculous below and how could you possibly come up with this statement to try to make any point?
    "OH MG ..you dont need to have a box, paperwork, know where it came from, document how many hands its gone through ..all MM have the MM import mark..surprised you didnt know that"

    Let me get this straight? So your saying that you don't need to have paperwork, box, or know of any of previous owners a particular rifle has gone through? "all you need is the mm import mark".... Is that what your saying? If so I don't understand your point since your the one who posted the quote below in the first place.

    Your post: "Did Mitchells buy it from old soviet Steve and then resell it with the box and letter of provenance LOL ; )"

    My response: When I posted post #16 the OP had not made it clear IMO that his buddy actually purchased his MM from MM. It wasn't until post #18 that mustang69 made it clear that his buddy purchased a collectors grade $600 from Mitchell's. Can an individual purchase a Mitchell's Mauser from a private individual who still had the box and letter it came with? In post #10 the op gave some hints but to me it wasn't clear where his buddy got the rifle exactly. There are at least two live auctions (which I cant post) going for MM's on gunbroker being sold by private individuals and they include the box, accessories and letter of authenticity...

    So it seems that your saying is that all you need is an import mark? Usually when you buy something from a company, your getting a product that no other individual (so to speak) owned before you. Its usually safe to assume that it hasnt been messed with by a humper. The k98ks are messed with by mm so lets exclude them right off the bat. Supposedly the yugo's are unissued and "original" or so they claim. Do you think it's possible that somebody bought an m48 like solvietsteve or some other humper out of the thousands out there and grinded/fake german stamped a Mitchell's? Let's just say someone has, so if I purchased it from that individual all I need is the import mark? What does that prove. Import marks are removed by humpers faster than any other humping, especially the ones on the barrel or sight bases. Knowing information of where your firearm came from is pretty important IMO.

    The point I was trying to get across in post #16 was before we were informed that the OP's buddy's buddy purchased the rifle from the Mitchell's Mauser company directly. So if I wasnt aware for 100% that the OP's friends rifle was purchased from the MM company directly until post 18, then what is the issue here? If I buy a MM import marked humped german fake stamped receiver code m48 from a gunshow let's say... Is it still not a Mitchell's Mauser import? What if it comes in the original box with certificate... Could one assume that Mitchell's is the culprit of the humping or is that accusation only confined to the previous owner? What if the seller swears he bought it from the company direct like that?

    There are literally tons of speculations, facts, and ideas accociated with MM's. In this case, after it was made clear that the OP's rifle in question was a direct Mitchell's company buy I said we need pics to see the story!

    "So your answer is(I'll answer for you ; ) NO"

    Well if that's the case then what can I do? If your gonna speak for me, then there's nothing I can further add to this discussion.
    Last edited by MauserGuy85; 02-09-2012 at 07:15 AM.
    WTB SVT 40, FINN rework or Soviet. Must have MINT bore. Or a receiver or barreled receiver.

    Looking for a late round hole Mauser Oberndorf complete matching bolt, serial #9547.

    Looking for a original matching BNZ 45 "T" block bolt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by painterjohn View Post
    Soviet Steve had no rifle..see post #s 17 and 26 for some real insight


    The wood you are describing is likely just walnut..I'll say again the Yugoslavs according to Branko Bogdanovic author and historian for Zastava never used Teak..M48 series rifles were sold without the stocks and the receiving country/entity could have stocked them with whatever they wanted..however I've never seen or heard of any of them using teak

    Your friend doesnt need pics..he just needs to look at the action screws and tell us if the locking screw is forward or aft..And could you just give your "M48 Measurements" intead of being vague about it???
    Painterjohn, the overall length of the rifle is 43.5", the bolt is 7 7/8" and the locking screw is immediatly aft. As for the stock, it could be walnut but it is medium colored..The paper work from MM says
    'teak

    '
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    *edit: nevermind*

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    Jeeze, get a room, you guys.

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    Sorry for taking up so much time with this tread and hope I did not put anyone out..Thanks for the valuable information.I will never bother you again.................
    NRA LIFE MEMBER
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang69 View Post
    Painterjohn, the overall length of the rifle is 43.5", the bolt is 7 7/8" and the locking screw is immediatly aft. As for the stock, it could be walnut but it is medium colored..The paper work from MM says
    'teak

    '
    OK very good thank you..I have in hand at the moment a K98k and an M24/47 which has the exact same action as the M48 series rifles and an M48..here are the measurements I'm getting

    K98k ..from center to center action screw 7 7/8"...From bolt face to rear of bolt body (disassembled) 6 1/4"

    M24/47& M48..From Cntr to Cntr Act screws 7 5/8...From bolt face to rear of BBody 6 1/16" (154mm)

    I have an RC in the truck that I didnt think to bring in as I'm going back out to work and the K98 in hand is a YC with Yugo barrel so I dont think I'd trust overall length..my apologies I'll get the RC in tonight and meaure it.

    The M48 (with butt resting flat on floor) is reading 43 3/8"

    Here is another factor to look for when you next get to lay hands on the rifle ..These pics are courtesy of Nothernug..The broach cut for the extractorClick image for larger version. 

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    The only other Standard length action rifle I can think of with the locking screw aft of the front action screw is the Belgian made FN1930..I will ask Geladen if there is another as he was the one who told me about the FN1930

    ------------------------

    'Nug, I'm sorry I did not have a chance to check back on the other thread to see if you had actually given me permission to use your fine pics but I wanted to get the Gentleman what information I could before running out the door..perhaps a Yugo oriented royalty should be in order : )..Thank you

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    Dang mustang you posted as I was posting..dont let this be the end..and it was sure no bother to me..I'm glad to help in any way I can

    please ignore any BS between people who dont care for each other IE..Me and guess who..its not relevant and I want to know as well as lots of other guys

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    Quote Originally Posted by painterjohn View Post
    Dang mustang you posted as I was posting..dont let this be the end..and it was sure no bother to me..I'm glad to help in any way I can

    please ignore any BS between people who dont care for each other IE..Me and guess who..its not relevant and I want to know as well as lots of other guys
    Something I will agree with completely. All our BS aside.... John, according to mustang's measurements what is your opinion on the rifle in question? Im asking seriously here. Locking screw aft and seems like a Standard length.... I'm getting 43.65" for overall length of one of my RC's (with cupped butt resting on floor). I agree with your k98 bolt and action screw measurements and trust you on the yugo 24/47. The overall length of a yugo m48 is 43.5" from online sources (I don't own a m48 so can't measure)... Which is the same as mustang69's measurements.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M48_Mauser
    http://dblomq.tripod.com/html/mauser48.htm

    Mustang69 please get us some pics either way.....
    Last edited by MauserGuy85; 02-09-2012 at 05:19 PM.
    WTB SVT 40, FINN rework or Soviet. Must have MINT bore. Or a receiver or barreled receiver.

    Looking for a late round hole Mauser Oberndorf complete matching bolt, serial #9547.

    Looking for a original matching BNZ 45 "T" block bolt.

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    Well, here goes again..over all length from butt to muzzle is 43 about 3/4", a mauser k98 bolt fits. the action and retainer screw have me puzzled though.....Pics by the weekend...Again, sorry for
    taking up ao much space .I think, in the end this is just a plain jane MM...The kid is happy with it. Can't wait to show you the stock wood. Beautiful, even if it is not correct...........
    NRA LIFE MEMBER
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    If a K98k bolt fits, it's a standard-length action. I'd like to see a pic of the trigger guard.

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    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...le-with-WaA140

    Mustang,

    I think from what you have presented so far it is likely that the Soviets picked up one of these FN1930 rifles..either in The Balkans from a Yugo Greek capture or any number of other areas such as the rifles mentioned in this thread with actual German marks and FN refurbishment markings ..this triggerguard found itself in the parts bins and was built into a YC that was then turned into the MM

    I do not know if the FN1930 triggerguard is the exact same length as a K98k only that the screw spacing is the same..I am going to ask folks who own one

    Look forward to the beautiful stock pics..Thank you for persevering and bringing us this fun and interesting mystery

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    I never rain on someone's parade even when they've overpaid for something that is not really collectible (at least, by general Gunboards standards, anyway). Jf it's nice looking, I may say, "well, it may not be original or correct, but it's still a nice looking Mauser, and if it shoots well, you will really enjoy it" or something like that.

    Always be a path to knowledge.
    Nothing worthwhile ever comes easily.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bones92 View Post
    I never rain on someone's parade even when they've overpaid for something that is not really collectible (at least, by general Gunboards standards, anyway). Jf it's nice looking, I may say, "well, it may not be original or correct, but it's still a nice looking Mauser, and if it shoots well, you will really enjoy it" or something like that.

    Always be a path to knowledge.
    I agree bones. Just hate to see him begin his collecting by getting ripped off by MM...At least when we figure this thing out he will have good knowledge of what is and isn't true...
    NRA LIFE MEMBER
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang69 View Post
    I agree bones. Just hate to see him begin his collecting by getting ripped off by MM...At least when we figure this thing out he will have good knowledge of what is and isn't true...
    http://k98kforum.com/
    K98k Research and Reference Forum
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    Sir Winston Churchill

  42. #42
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    Hello All,

    All I can add is "double WOW!!!!" This is better than the RC shellac controversy. Can we have a referee please?

  43. #43
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    I'm still waiting for pics of this MM maybe yugo m48/k98k/FN30 with BNZ41 top receiver code and German proofs.....
    WTB SVT 40, FINN rework or Soviet. Must have MINT bore. Or a receiver or barreled receiver.

    Looking for a late round hole Mauser Oberndorf complete matching bolt, serial #9547.

    Looking for a original matching BNZ 45 "T" block bolt.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by painterjohn View Post
    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...le-with-WaA140

    Mustang,

    I think from what you have presented so far it is likely that the Soviets picked up one of these FN1930 rifles..either in The Balkans from a Yugo Greek capture or any number of other areas such as the rifles mentioned in this thread with actual German marks and FN refurbishment markings ..this triggerguard found itself in the parts bins and was built into a YC that was then turned into the MM

    I do not know if the FN1930 triggerguard is the exact same length as a K98k only that the screw spacing is the same..I am going to ask folks who own one

    Look forward to the beautiful stock pics..Thank you for persevering and bringing us this fun and interesting mystery
    I checked with a senior member Geladen who has a very well rounded/extensive Mauser collection ..See his thread in the sticky section of the Milt. Mauser board "Mausers only Mausers"

    I asked specificaly if the dimensions on the FN1930 TG were the same other than the spacing of the action screws..here is the answer I received:

    "
    John,
    The screw spacing is the same on both but the overall length of the FN1930 is about 1/4 inch less. The difference in length is forward of the front guard screw hole. You should be able to drop an FN1930 trigger guard into a K98k stock but the reverse will require inletting about 1/4 inch at the front of the guard."

    So now I am most interested in 1) the stock forward of the triggerguard and 2) the inletting for the receiver

    #1 because I think it would be easiest to add a 1/4" plug to cover the space

    And #2 because to have the correct inlet for the trigger guard you would need to use an M48 stock and re cut for the longer action..More work but they are selling these pimp shinies for looks and a plug that shows on the outside might have been avoided for that reason.

    I also think the stock not being easily identified by Mustang who collects K98k rifles also lends a clue if you will to an M48 stock..these can be Beech, Walnut or Elm..Quote from Brank Bogdanovic:

    "The Model 1948 and Model 1948A rifles were fitted primarily with beech stocks, although some were also fitted with stocks made from elm. But the entire first series of the Model 1948 rifle had walnut stocks."
    Branko"

    at any rate I personaly own over 40 Yugoslav bolt actions and have examples of all three woods so I look forward to your pics Mustang when ever you get the chance..I know I've got several new rifles and 1/2 a dozen bayonets I'm trying to find enough time to picture as well

    Thanks again for your efforts and the fun mystery

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    2 things to add
    Wasn't here but linked to a copy of a old shotgun new, there were waffenamps for sale
    used to 'make your mauser match'
    but I forget, I believe that it was Mitchels selling them OR yet another case of the 'intermediate' action 98....
    yeah, I love me some of the Mitchels Mosins, Ivan must be turning thinking of all those capitalist suckers that would of bought what he sold for $5 a peice???
    Live, learn and be happy.
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