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02-25-2012, 09:38 AM #1
Do you shoot your Argentine 1891? 1909?
Are these safe to shoot with modern ammo? Milsurp ammo (I have some). Hand loaded only? I read in Mechanical Variations of the Mauser Bolt Action Military Rifles by James A. Wingate, P.E. pg 27-28
9. 7.65 x 53 mm Rimless smokless power cartridge (1889 Belgian Contract)
This cartridge is a rimless bottleneck metallic case number with a round nose metal acketed bullet of 211-216 grains bullet weight. The case is 53 mm in ength, and the overall cartridge is 78 mm long. The 7.65 mm caliber works out to .30 inches caliber, quite a change from the 11mm black powder job it followed. It originally packed about 39-41 grains of smokeless powder, and delivered a muzzle velocity around 2034-2132 feet per second from a standard long rifle barrel (which was 30.67 inches long in the Belgian M89 and 29.13 inches long in the Turkish M90. The Argentine and the Turkish long rfile modle barrels were of the same length. The Turkish/Argentine was the hotter round.)
Today, it is commonly called the 7.65x53 Argentine, and is loaded a good bit hotter then the original 19th Century version. The last box of commercial 7.65 Argintine I bought is loaded with 180-grain jacketed soft-point semi-ogive projectiles, with an advertised 790 meters per second muzzle velocity (about 2600 feet per second), which puts the loading in the same energy class as the .308 Winchester / 7.62 mm NATO round. The military loading for the 7.65 Argentine in later years was 44.7 grains of power behind a pointed 154grain full metal jacket bullet, and it gave 2.755 feet per second at the muzzle of a Fabrique Nationale barrel of 23.2-inch length. Compare this to the 7.62 NATO and you will find no practical difference. Now.... However, you should be very careful regarding chamber pressures, and shoot only hand0loads with pressures less than 37,000 CUP in the "old" ones (1889-1918)
What say the masses?
02-25-2012, 10:12 AM #2
What I found from PPU
PRVI PARTIZAN AMMUNITION Search Result
Article Caliber Bullet Type Bullet Wt[gr] Bullet Wt[g] Vellocity [m/s] Energy [J] Barrel Lenght[mm]
A-129 7.65 x 53 Argentine FMJ BT 174 11.3 800 3620 610
A-176 7.65 x 53 Argentine SP 150 9.7 860 3590 610
A-179 7.65 x 53 Argentine SP 180 11.7 775 3510 610
I am not sure what this all means....ie what are the limits.
02-25-2012, 10:13 AM #3Senior Member
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
As I understand it, Argentinian military ammo, as loaded until the late 1970's, was intended for use in all service bolt action rifles, and machine guns, including the 1891, and 1909 series rifles. If you think about it, tthere is no reason the cartridge could not be loaded even hotter, except for the existance of the older 1891 series rifles.
That stated, some people feel uneasy using surplus in 1891 series guns. There is little margin of safety, especially if a cartrige casing splits. Personally, I would use reloads, loaded down somewhat. Without a scope sight, there is little reason to push the round to its limits. The 1891 is a dated action, its limitations are well known. It specifically does not handle escaping gas (from a casing split) as well as the 1909 does.
PS: I wasn't sure if Privi Partisan carried 7.65 Mauser. I would not hesitate to buy and shoot this ammo. As to Argentinian surplus, some state that by the 1970's, the equipment used to load this ammo was worn and out of specification. I would only shoot it sparingly, with a pair of very sturdy safety glasses on, not just prescription safety glasses. The surplus I shot was not very accurate.
Last edited by sfoster; 02-25-2012 at 10:34 AM.
02-25-2012, 12:32 PM #4Junior Member
- Join Date
- Dec 2011
I hand load for my '91 Carbine, great little gun, fun, accurate. I have some PP ammo that came with it but I load lighter and use lighter bullets. Using PP and Norma cases.
02-25-2012, 12:42 PM #5
Prvi Partizan does make 7.65 Argentine.
02-25-2012, 12:51 PM #6We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore is not an act, but a habit- -- Aristotle
Looking for cocking sleeve #75.
02-25-2012, 12:54 PM #7Silver Bullet member
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Argentine surplus ammo, unlike the rifles, is not very good, at least that which you occasionally find for sale. It is usually not worth the money they want for it...more of a cartridge collection item. The 1909 is a 98 Mauser and has all the good features of that design, plus excellent pre-WW1 craftsmanship, especially if made in Germany. Some later ones were made or at least heavily refurbished in Agentina. I am not aware of their quality, though I am also not aware that it is deficient in any way. These should be safe to shoot with any reasonable load. I have two, and hunt with one of them. They are top shelf.
The quality of the 1891s is equal to that of the 1909 model, but the actions are not as strong. They should be safe with the kind of pressures that commercial ammo for military rifles is usually loaded to. Hand load for them to lower pressures, or buy the commercial loads available after asking the salespeople or the manufacturer what the pressures are.
Keep in mind, with unmodified front sights, both of these rifles are made to shoot POI at 350 or 400 meters. I download my 1891 rifles with lead bullets so they are on target at 100 meters. I put a tall front sight on my hunting 1909. These rifles are meant to be on the range.
02-25-2012, 01:34 PM #8Senior Member
- Join Date
- Dec 1969
- West Virginia
In a way, the M1891 action is actually stronger than the M1898 as the bolt lug surface is larger. Not really an issue, both have sufficient absolute strength. Large ring vs small ring was not an issue of absolute strength either, it was the issue of possible reciever stretch/increase headspace over time. This proved to also be a non issue. Weakness of the pre 98 actions is poor gas protection in the event of case failure or pierced primer. Use high quality brass and that issue pretty much goes away too.
A note of caution. Very low "squib" loads may cause damage. Any load with insufficent pressure for the case to expand and grip the chamber wall can over time "batter" the bolt and cause the lugs to set back.(Don't ask me how I know). If squib loads are desired, do NOT full length resize and this problem will not arise.
02-25-2012, 01:56 PM #9Senior Member
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
Try to use only NORMA 7.65 x 53 ammunition in these
superb rifles .. Actually the round was adopted by Belgium
in 1889 as the 7.65 Belgian Mauser Cartridge and later by
South American countries . And there is a 7.65 x 53 R used
in break open rifles .
02-25-2012, 02:06 PM #10Senior Member
- Join Date
- Sep 2007
I have a case or so (++) of the surplus argentine 7,65x53 FMJ ammo and its very clean. I just purchased another 1891 carbine so we can shoot it up a little at a time i plan to anyway.
I have another arg mauser in 7,65x53 and i think the headspace is .010'' too deep using the tape on the go gauge on the back of it. I'm not sure if its safe to shoot because i'm not sure what size the field 7,65x53 headspace gauge is. Its one of those 60's Ye Olde Gun Shop in La, calif cut downs with the canted bolt. I was thinking about installing a 7,62x39 chamber adapter in it.Are you ready for 12-21-2012?? Lets pray its the second comming of Christ and not the end like so many predict.
02-25-2012, 03:03 PM #11
02-27-2012, 10:48 AM #12Senior Member
- Join Date
- Jun 2010
I do; use either FN-made military ball ammo from the '60s or '70s-made Norma FMJ. Also we sometimes use a "short-range" load with 180-ish cast bullets under 1000 fps. for up to 125 yards target practice. Never had any trouble in the '91 or the (Peruvian) 1909 with any of them. Commercial 7.65 ammo hasn't been available here since the early '70s, but luckily that might be about to change.
02-27-2012, 10:57 AM #13
I shoot FMAP Argy military ammo from the 1970s and modern PRVI in my 1891 carbine, 1909 carbine and Peruvian VZ-32.
Noticable recoil (especially shooting prone), but no issues with the pressure.Curator, the Privett Museum for Unloved & Wayward Guns. Est. 2006.
02-27-2012, 09:42 PM #14
Clearly, 7.65x54 is a bigger case than .308 so it is likely to run pressures less than .308 for a given velocity. We know that max for .308 is 60k CUP and that 150gr@2800ft/sec can be achieved with less than max loads. The quoted velocity for the Prvi 150gr load is pretty much 2800ft/sec but from a bigger case, so it the pressure is bound to be even less.Damn the expense, use your turn signals today... and as a special favour, try doing it before you have two wheels in the next lane.
03-04-2012, 03:21 PM #15
I have nine of these rifles short and long and I shoot pretty much all the above plus reload for them have never had a problem with any except a few duds from surplus ammo, this rifle is great for deer with 180 grn enjoy Lyle
03-06-2012, 06:18 AM #16
Just shot my 1891 long using Prvi 180 gr. sp. I'm still here... Very nice over all.
03-06-2012, 06:36 AM #17Moderator
- Join Date
- Dec 1969
- Outer Mongolia
I shoot an Argentine M1891 on a fairly regular basis, however since I only punch paper with most of my vintage rifles, I shoot hand-loads only with the velocity in the 2100 fps range. No point in shooting full house loads since the targets don't know the difference.
03-15-2012, 11:45 AM #18
I used to shoot my 91 with surplus ammo but it beats the hell out of my cheek. Now Ionly shoot the 09 on rare occasions.