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  1. #1

    Default Dutch/Indonesian Carbine

    I picked up this rifle a number of years ago, and thought it was bubba'ed because of the cut-back fore-end. From studying this forum it seems possible it is a KNIL cavalry carbine and the lack of a nose-cap is original. The receiver wall is marked STEYR 1901 and the barrel shank number is 5466 D, and there are what appear to be small "Crown over B" stamps on the top ring and barrel. There are small gas ports on both sides of the receiver ring. The rifle itself appears matching, while the bolt matches itself, 1339. The plate reads: 5-A. II Bg. over 175 and is cut into the edge of the un-readable circular stock stamp.

    A photo on the board shows a similar rifle (though in much better shape) identified as a "Karabin M.95 Cavalry KNIL". Would this be correct, and what does KNIL stand for?

    Unfortunately the rifle is pretty worn and beat up with deep pitting under the wood. It's marked "ODIN ALEX VA" in small letters on the right receiver ring just above the wood.

    I've got $50 in 2001 money invested in it. Any idea what it might be worth today?

    Thanks in advance -
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails M95COMPOSITE.jpg  

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
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    KNIL is for Koninklijk Nederlands Indisch Leger (Royal Netherlands East Indies Army)
    Here is a link to your weapon .... http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/...n/i004819.html

    Patrick
    Vive La République Française, le Lebel et le poilu
    Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
    Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 dit "Lebel"

    Co-Author of Banzai Special Project No. 1 Revised Edition
    The Siamese Mauser
    A Study Of Siamese / Thai Type 45 & Type 46 Long Rifles and Type 47 Carbines, Including An Overview Of Siamese/Thai Weapons 1860–2014

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    Florida
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    The little brass plate is a good indicator of use by the KNIL. It probably refers to a specific military unit and location The round cartouche would refer to the reigning Dutch monarch at the time.

  4. #4

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    Yes, bandook is correct, the brass plate lists the unit over the unit weapon number (175). This is typical for the KNIL carbines. Also typical are the gas ports, that do not exist on the continental rifles/carbines. Apparently, one was concerned for high pressures due to the tropical temperatures. The hot and wet climate are probably the cause of the state of your carbine.

    The round cartouche probably reads: Steyr and a W surrounded by the year 1901, if the stock matches the carbine.
    The "W" stands for Wilhelmina, Queen of the Netherlands from 1898 till 1948.

    Interestingly, ODIN ALEX VA stands for ODIN International, Alexandria, Virginia (hooray for the internet!), the import stamp of this firm that imported arms into the US from abroad. So this mark must be of a later date.

    Regards,
    Hans

  5. #5

    Default

    Thanks for the information.

    I misread the captions of the photos by Nick in this post:

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...oking-for-info

    His example of a Gendarmerie carbine most resembles mine, with the narrow sling swivels. Do the Gendarmerie carbines have the wood on the magazine, because I don't think mine ever had the wood covering on the left magazine housing. It has a solid buttplate. There is no serial on the surface of the stock; might there be one inside?

    I may have put some folks off by asking about value, but I'm really just curious. I bought it knowing it was something of a beater because I did not have an example of a Mannlicher turn-bolt in the collection, and have no clue whether it is a $50 or $500 rifle, now that I have a better idea what it is.
    Thanks again.

  6. #6

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    After a little more research, I do think you're right: this is not a KNIL Cavalry carbine, but more likely a Gendarmerie (or in Dutch "Marechaussee") carbine. By the way: the turned-down bolt handle is also typical KNIL. The continental carbines had straight bolt handles. Here's a link to the Dutch Army Museum: http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/...n/i004821.html

    As far as I can find, the Gendarmerie carbine did not have the wood cover on the magazine, it has the sling swivels like yours. The Cavalry carbine, DID have the wood cover and sling shivels are mounted on the left side of the carbine.

    The Gendarmerie option also sheds some more light on the unit number: it could be the 5th Division, 2nd (II) Brigade, but I'm not an expert in this. The Marechaussee had 5 divisions in the East Indies, the Vth was based in Lhok Nga (westcoast of Bigger Atjeh (now Aceh, Indonesia). These divisions and brigades were much smaller in size than army units, in 1926 the total strength of the Marechaussee was 20 officers and 1220 men. Unlike the continental Gendarmerie (MP), their duties went beyond the normal military police duties. They were involved in anti-guerrilla warfare against the Atjeh-people and were feared for their violent and ruthless tactics. All-in-all not a pretty piece of Dutch history, but that's how it was in that colonial era...

    Here's a pretty cool picture I found in this WIKI-link:
    http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marecha...aussee_Brigade

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It's hard to estimate the value of your carbine in the US. Total production Gendarmerie carbines was approx. 28000, but a lot were lost or were transformed by the Indonesian Army, so I do not know how many survived. But the $ 50 you paid is a bargain, I guess, considering the interesting history.

    Cheers,
    Hans

  7. #7
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    Thanks, Dutchm95, for this link. The colonial activities of the Dutch in the East Indies are not well known in the US.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    19

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    The unit markings as used by the KNIL on small arms between 1888-1942 are explained in the book "The Dutch Luger" from B. Martens and G. de Vries (1994) on the pages 168-188. The marking A.II.Bg. stands for 2e afdeling bergartillerie (2nd Section Mountain Artillery).

    The booklet "The Dutch Mannlicher M.95 and the 6,5 x 53,5 R cartridge" (1995) describes all these rifles, carbines and cartridges as used by the Dutch armed forces between 1896 and 1942.

    Both books are stille availebly.


    Regards, Marck

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Hello Warrior,

    You have a sort of all purpose carbine of the KNIL. Others were made with different features for artillery, engineers, and cavalry. The Cavalry model features the wooden magazine cover and skeleton buttplate. While these carbines are very well made, there is little interest in the US because ammo is almost impossible to find unless the cases are made from .303 British and reloaded. Strictly a handloading proposition.
    Odin was the importer who imported a large lot of these from Indonesia in the 1980's. Springfield Sporters was a main distributor for them. I would estimate its worth about 150 to 175 to a serious Dutch collector. As they were in use almost continually from 1896 to 1942, in a hot and humid climate, they show a lot of wear. Very interesting collectable from the era though.

  10. #10

    Default

    I stand corrected, 5 - A.II Bg does stand for 5e Batterij 2e Afdeling Bergartillerie (5th Battery 2nd Section Mountain Artillery), I already said I wasn't an expert on unit numbers ;-\

    The definitive answer to your carbine type can probably be found in De Vries and Martens' book "Nederlandse Vuurwapens, KNIL en Militaire Luchtvaart, 1897-1942", which - unfortunately - is still on my wannahave list. Perhaps another forum member has this and can check it.

    The booklet "The Dutch Mannlicher M.95 and the 6,5 x 53,5 R cartridge" (1995), I do have, but doesn't go into enough detail, I'm afraid.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    I believe the book "Nederlandse Vuurwapens, KNIL en Militaire Luchtvaart 1897-1942" from B. Martens and G. de Vries is to obtain from Boekenmarkt.nl or bol.com, language of this book is in Dutch. Description of the Mannlicher weapons is on the pages 47-83. A long shot will be to contact SAM Wapenmagazine, one off the authors is director of this Dutch weaponmagazine.

    The reference to the Mannlicher booklet was made because this concerns all the armed forces (Army, Marine and KNIL) and the text is bi-langual, Dutch and English.

    Regards,

    Marck

  12. #12

    Default

    Thanks for all the interesting information. Like I said, I thought this was a standard Dutch carbine that had been chopped up, only to find that it is in original trim with a very interesting history. The photo from DutchM95 is great; one does not usually see a period shot of a somewhat obscure rifle. Believe it or not, I picked up about 50 rnds of 6.5 Dutch on clips in a batch of mixed ammo at an auction about 10 years ago. I need to dig it out so I can find out what it is. Unfortunately, the pitting below the wood on this rifle is bad enough I would be afraid to shoot it. When I got the rifle and stripped it down, I found that someone had tried to fill the pitting in with "Bondo" or something similar and it took me forever to remove it and get the rust stabilized.

    Thanks again for the discussion. I'll move it out of the corner with the junk and onto a rack with the other carbines.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Greater Seattle Area
    Posts
    264

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    Talking; Check the bore diameter - I have a carbine that could be your carbine's twin (right down to "ODIN ALEX VA") that's set for .303. I'll see if I can root out some pictures for it - I paid 105.00 for mine if I recall correctly - no nifty unit marking on mine though.

  14. #14

    Default

    This one's still in 6.5. I would imagine shooting one of these little rifles in 303 would get your attention.

  15. #15

    Default

    Heres the pistol to go with it. I think the ammunition for these could be made from the duth 6.5 rimmed cartridge

    m91 dutch colonial revolver

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