Russian Nagant ammo supply may be increasing.

[nwellons]

While RGUNS has had the Russian Nagant ammo for some time at $550 for a case of 1,092 (plus pretty heavy shipping prices), I have been hoping that since they had case lots, maybe more would show up.

Today in a flier from SOG, they show the same cases of 1,092 for $369 without shipping and handling. That is quite an improvement and let's hope more arrives with more dealers to let competition help.

RGUNS is a Gunboards sponsor and SOG is not so maybe competition, even if only with SOG will lower their prices since they don't have an exclusive now.

I've checked and both suppliers seem to have the ammo in stock.

[ffuries]

Good to know where to find it now. I spent 3 hours on google looking for Nagant ammo last night with no luck. Then today you list two businesses that have it, gotta love that. Thanks for the information.

Mike

[LStansel]

Graf n sons also today now list MilSup 108grain Nagant ammo in stock.

Hopefully it's correct this time. They sent me an email correcting receiving date couple weeks ago. Website now shows in stock. They are .50c more for box of 14 but they have low cost shipping.

[ZBiker]

J&G has it too..338 for 1092 sealed tin Z

[guy sajer]

Thanks for the heads up ! A cheaper alternative to Fiocchi

[Wadwizard]

While RGUNS has had the Russian Nagant ammo for some time at $550 for a case of 1,092 (plus pretty heavy shipping prices), I have been hoping that since they had case lots, maybe more would show up.

Today in a flier from SOG, they show the same cases of 1,092 for $369 without shipping and handling. That is quite an improvement and let's hope more arrives with more dealers to let competition help.

RGUNS is a Gunboards sponsor and SOG is not so maybe competition, even if only with SOG will lower their prices since they don't have an exclusive now.

I've checked and both suppliers seem to have the ammo in stock.

I'd be interested to see the chronograph results on the new Russian military ammo. The RGuns ammo has a lighter bullet (like the 7.62X25) and has a substantially higher velocity than the older stuff that's been around previously. The new SOG offering says it has the heavier metal case bullet, but lists no velocity for it from a '95.

[jepari]

If you have a FFL or C&R on file with Graf the price is $4.39 per 14 rd pack. I just ordered 32 packs of ammo yesterday (which makes about $272 for a full case - and almost $100 less than SOG). I just checked and they still have it in stock so I think I'll order some more, since it sold out pretty quick last time
It'll be interesting to see how this ammo performs - I don't have the chance to shoot "real" 7.62x38 Nagant ammo very often ...I was down to my last 3 packs that I bought from R-Guns a while back :-)

[ffuries]

Actually found some of the Fiocchi ammo for sale locally. Came out to about .85 cents per round. First place I went into and asked for 7.62x38r said "Oh you mean x39", then argued with me about what I wanted, then proceeded to tell me that there was no such animal as x38. The second place I went into and asked, the guy went right to a place on a shelf, his only question was "You are looking for Nagant ammo right?"

Will be getting some surplus ammo on-line, just to have some more. Figured I could take the Fiocchi ammo and actually go shooting today or tomorrow.

[nwellons]

If you have a FFL or C&R on file with Graf the price is $4.39 per 14 rd pack. I just ordered 32 packs of ammo yesterday (which makes about $272 for a full case - and almost $100 less than SOG).

I'm trying to decide on a can vs. just using my black powder Nagant reloads.

Is the C&R price actually $4.39? There seems to be a mistake somewhere. Graf states 78 poxes per sealed tin so that would be 78 x 4.39 = $342.42 rather than $272. I can't check to see if you typed the wrong price or the wrong total since I have not sent them my C&R yet.

With all these posts, it sure looks like a lot had been imported and I hope the price is reasonable enough when the pricing settles down.

[jepari]

I'm trying to decide on a can vs. just using my black powder Nagant reloads.

Is the C&R price actually $4.39? There seems to be a mistake somewhere. Graf states 78 poxes per sealed tin so that would be 78 x 4.39 = $342.42 rather than $272. I can't check to see if you typed the wrong price or the wrong total since I have not sent them my C&R yet.

With all these posts, it sure looks like a lot had been imported and I hope the price is reasonable enough when the pricing settles down.

You are totally right, me and math @ o'dark thirty = screw up. Thanks for pointing it out :-) Yes the C&R price per box is $4.39 and the case price would be 342 or so. I somehow thought I had bought half a case and the case was 64 - again, sorry for the mix up - was half way in La la land when I posted :-)

[radonedoc.]

I'd be interested to see the chronograph results on the new Russian military ammo. The RGuns ammo has a lighter bullet (like the 7.62X25) and has a substantially higher velocity than the older stuff that's been around previously. The new SOG offering says it has the heavier metal case bullet, but lists no velocity for it from a '95.

To whom it may concern:

This is my first post on any blog or gun specific site. That being said, I was confused about all of the speculation regarding ballistics of the nagant pistol and specifically, the recent arrival of Russian 108 grain military surplus ammunition. Yesterday, I went to Sportsman warehouse and purchased a RCBS ammo master chronograph.
Today, I went to the range and shot my 1938 Tula nagant revolver with various types of ammunition. I also shot my Ruger 10/22 and Romanian Tokarev.

Here are my results:

Testing done under the following conditions: temperature 67 Fahrenheit, altitude 5250, winds 2-3mph NNE, barometric pressure: unknown/partially cloudy. Humidity: 30%. All shots at 10 feet.

1. Nagant PPU- 98 Grain . 7 shot string

High: 659 fps.
Low: 634 fps
Average : 647 fps, yielding 91 ft lbs.
ES: 25 fps
SD: 9 fps.

1. Nagant , 7.62mm x 38 , 85 grain round nose (tokarev bullet) Russian military surplus circa 1980s from RGuns. 7 shot string.

High: 892 fps
Low: 820 fps.
Average: 846 fps, yielding 135 ft lbs.
ES 72 fps
SD 22 fps.

More on this later, (of note these values are very discrepant for Mwellons chronographs data from previous.)

1. 108 grain flat point, Russian military surplus circa 1970s, 7.62 x 38mm purchased very recently from

JG sales. 9 shot string

High: 929 fps
Low: 836 fps (probable outlier)
Average: 894, yielding 191 ft lbs.
ES: 93 fps
SD: 25 fps.


Prior to shooting, I did attempt to “zero” my chronograph using my Ruger 10/22, firing 22lr 40 grain Golden Bullets. Average Chronograph results @1300 fps. Box states 1255 fps. 10 round string.

My battery died, and this data sting was largely corrupted, but these rounds were very consistent, by memory averaging 1290 to 1320 fps.

1. My final string was with my 1952 Romanian Tokarev, firing an 85 grain Sellier & Bellot FMJ. 8 shot string.

High: 1574 fps
Low: 1517 fps
Average: 1554 fps, yielding 456 ft lbs.
Es: 57 fps
SD: 21 Fps.


The ballistics for the JG sales 108 grain ammunition seems historically accurate, given some of the data on Wikipedia. It did “feel” more powerful than all of the other nagant ammunition. There was mild muzzle flip and mild felt recoil. To me, it did feel similar to a .38 special.

I am uncertain, why the Rguns 85 grain (tokarev- round nose bullets) were much slower than the chronographed data from Mwellons as noted on : 7.62x54r.net › ... › Forums › The Mosin Nagant Forum

I can only assume that his batch of ammunition was loaded “hotter”, or much, much less likely my Nagant is defective.


Before anyone attacks my data, let me clarify a few things. I do admit that my sample size is smaller than I had hoped. My battery died or I would have fired and chronographed more rounds. I will repeat this test at some point with a backup battery and a larger sample size to increase my statistical confidence.

This is the best I could do at this time.


Respectfully.

Radonedoc.

[swabbie]

thanks for the details doc !!! Most folks here will appreciate the data.Since you have reported the "facts" it would be hard to disagree with anything but your speculations.

I'll chrono my PPU when at the range next.

Getting ready to order mold and dies for that cartridge.

BUYING ONCE FIRED ppu BRASS.....

[jepari]

Great post radonedoc ! And welcome to the board. Saved me having to go and borrow a friends chrono. I was curious as to the difference in the muzzle velocity - since there was a noticeable difference in the recoil between Prvi's ammo and the last batch of surplus Nagant ammo - and your post pretty much covered my "need to know"

[nwellons]

Here is a link to the chronograph run I did on surplus I got when RGuns got the original shipment. http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-revolver-ammo

Thanks for your work radonedoc. I don't know what makes the difference between our runs either but it makes it interesting.

Like you, I check the calibration of my chrono against commercial .22.

[radonedoc.]

Here is a link to the chronograph run I did on surplus I got when RGuns got the original shipment. http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-revolver-ammo

Thanks for your work radonedoc. I don't know what makes the difference between our runs either but it makes it interesting.

Like you, I check the calibration of my chrono against commercial .22.

Thanks for the welcome.

I own many modern guns, but I can't seem to understand my fascination for this old Nagant?

Swabbie, since I'm not yet a handloader, I will save up my once fired PPU brass, when I get enough saved up, I will ship it to you for free. You will get better use of it than me.

Jepari, I'm glad I could attempt answer some your questions, I suspect there are many more people out there with questions, and indeed these results will spawn more discussion down the line.

Mwellons, I will probably order 10 more boxes of 85 grain nagant ammo from RGuns, and repeat my chorongraph results. I do hope the repeat testing will confirm your much faster results.


I did find an interesting archive link from May of 2010. forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-172401.html

It seems that the post from Jleiper was spot on. In my opinon , the ammo at JG sales (and likely SOG), is standard issue Russian Combat load. 108 grain, flat nose, with velocities of approximately 272 m/s or 892fps. The russians continued to produce this ammuntion well into the early 1980s, eventually switching to the 85 tokarev round nose projectile in the Nagant in about 1985, stopping all production in 1989. The later loads are likely what they have at RGuns.

I've read somewhere, that the Russians kept up production of Nagant ammunition because the nagant pistol fit nicely in the sideports of the BMP and BMP-1 infantry fighting vehicles.

IMHO.


Radonedoc.

[billthefifth]

Just ordered some of the military ammo from Graf and Sons, just a few boxes though since I can't shoot steal core at our range. But I'll find somewhere to do some blasting!

Thought I'd post this picture as well, I've been shooting PPU and I enjoy the lighter round, but here's just how light it can be!

At 25 yards, the rounds are easily retrievable, and most of them are intact! And this is shooting at rocks, old bullets and other range detritus.

[bch7773]

While RGUNS has had the Russian Nagant ammo for some time at $550 for a case of 1,092 (plus pretty heavy shipping prices), I have been hoping that since they had case lots, maybe more would show up.

Today in a flier from SOG, they show the same cases of 1,092 for $369 without shipping and handling. That is quite an improvement and let's hope more arrives with more dealers to let competition help.

RGUNS is a Gunboards sponsor and SOG is not so maybe competition, even if only with SOG will lower their prices since they don't have an exclusive now.

I've checked and both suppliers seem to have the ammo in stock.

Sportsmans guide has it listed cheaper.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/c....aspx?a=965882

$314 a case

[Moe]

I received my 20 boxes from Graf and Sons today. Looks like it just came off the line.38 at 12 oclock
77 at 6 oclock.Can't wait to try it.

[El Karang]

Got some of the 77 russian in from J&G and appears as though AIM has some of the same too .Be a couple weeks before i get to try it.gotta wonder on the crimp on the case mouth of the yugo prvi as opposed to the stab crimp on the tapered '77 108gr russian and if it affects velocity any.anyone venture an opinion on this? wanted to get some from rguns but shipping too much.thanks for the data mwellons and doc...

[JTV]

Interesting. I did bit of testing with World War 2 era Finnish-captured Soviet ammunition last year and the chrono gave quite similar results. While I was at it I tested also recent Fiocchi and some 1970's Soviet-made sporting ammo.

Test results, muzzle velocities of 7.62 x 38R Nagant ammunition:

1. Fiocchi ammunition that is manufactured in these days:
- Average: 184 m/sec / 603 fps
- Variation: 177 - 190 m/sec / 580 - 623 fps

2. Soviet manufactured sport-ammunition from year 1971:
- Average: 145 m/sec / 475 fps
- Variation: 143 - 151 m/sec / 469 - 495 fps

3. Soviet World War 2 era ammunition:
- Average: 257 m/sec / 843 fps
- Variation: 245 - 271 m/sec / 803 - 889 fps
- Finnish-captured Soviet ammunition, some of it made by Tula, the rest by factory 38. Manufacturing years of individual cartridges 1935 - 1940.

All ammunition, the wartime captured ammunition included, went bang in the first try. I tested four rounds of each ammunition type. Chronograph was about 3 meters / 9 feet from the muzzle.

Jarkko

[El Karang]

My ammo is 38.thought 38 might be tula but references say Yuryusan.Think I will stick with the military ammo as it has a bit more zip.was wondering about the fiocchi as i almost got some.thanks for the test on this.

[The Expert]

I've still got some of the Russian Sporting Revolver cartridge ammo from the 1970's that Jarkko mentions. To say it is unimpressive when fired is
being very generous. I always knew it was pathetically weak, but to see that result of 475 fps! Wow! That's ludicrously slow; if I hadn't fired that stuff myself, I would inclined to disbelieve a velocity so slow.

Thanks for the great chrono results, Jarkko and Radonedoc!

[jleiper]

The V-1 (B-1) sporting revolver cartridge was developed for accuracy - not velocity or stopping power. It is exacly the same situation as .38 special wad cutters used for target shooting in a .38 special or .357 magnum. The most accurate loads barely get the bullet out of the barrel! I buy the V-1 ammo EVERY chance I get - I have a TOZ-36 and several MTs-4 which love it.
Joe

[radonedoc.]

It seems that the supply from sportsmansguide is back in stock. Just ordered a spam can, it should be here next week. I'm very curious to run these rounds thru my chronograph. They are reporting 1100 fps/290 ft lbs. Very different taper on the end, and very different circumfrential crip pattern. Interesting.

If the chronograph results are accurate it would be very potent ammunition.

Jleiper, have you ever seen Russian surplus in an unlabelled spam can with that crimp pattern?

Keep you posted.

radonedoc.

[radonedoc.]

The ammo from sportsman's guide just arrived. Its from line 38, same two stab crimp as stuff from JG sales. smooth taper neck. I would expect the ballistics to be the same as stated above. Will test and let everyone know.


someone should tell sportsmansguide to update their picture on the website......

[LStansel]

Widner's now has the 108 gr 1977 production in Tin of 1092 rds for 319$ plus shipping. Same stuff I got from Graf's. The ones I crony'd gave av velocity of 935 fps. The round is actually .307 diameter. That's not a mistake. Checked it myself and past data agrees.

[sparky236]

AIM has had it for a couple weeks and I just got some from them. Similar price. Mine just arrived. Looks great as usual from AIM.

[jjjxlr8]

The V-1 (B-1) sporting revolver cartridge was developed for accuracy - not velocity or stopping power. It is exacly the same situation as .38 special wad cutters used for target shooting in a .38 special or .357 magnum. The most accurate loads barely get the bullet out of the barrel! I buy the V-1 ammo EVERY chance I get - I have a TOZ-36 and several MTs-4 which love it.
Joe

Is this the stuff? Notice how far down the lead wad cutter bullet is in the case...

[JTV]

Is this the stuff? Notice how far down the lead wad cutter bullet is in the case...

Yes, that is exactly it. In this case the sporting ammo made in December of 1972 (XII - 72 g).

Jarkko

[swabbie]

No gas seal crimp on this NOS factory stuff? I will feel better about not being able to completely recreate the unusual crimp on my reloads.

[JTV]

No gas seal crimp on this NOS factory stuff?

Yes - and no such thing in World War 2 era Soviet 7.62 x 38R Nagant military ammo either.

Jarkko

[Mgderf]

I can't recall where I found it, but I have a couple of boxes of Prvi Partisan 7.62x38R ammo.

[Animal901]

To whom it may concern:

Testing done under the following conditions: temperature 67 Fahrenheit, altitude 5250, winds 2-3mph NNE, barometric pressure: unknown/partially cloudy. Humidity: 30%. All shots at 10 feet.

Radonedoc.

Barometric Pressure was most likely 14.7