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  1. #1
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    Default M41 with an odd scope I just bought...

    Picked up this M41 locally. The scope I've been told is some kind of prototype or experimental model? The rifle is all matching, but the base is either not original, or has been removed and refitted with new screws? I don't know which. The taper pin holes seem to line up perfectly with the screw holes so I think this may the original base to this rifle. The scope mount has a different serial number on it. The rifle is a Carl Gustaf 1911. One ring cap was back to front, I have corrected that. I'm wondering if the dealer or previous owner removed the base to see the rifle serial number which they needed when selling rifles here. The screws were not tight so I did the same to see if the numbers matched, which they do.

    Any comments on this would be appreciated.



















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    I have been wanting one of these for a while, but $$ is tight for me. If you spend under a grand, I would say you did good if overall condition is decent. I know nothing about experimental scope other then what it says in the Kehaya/Poyer 2nd edition, which is not any good compared to Dana Jones Crown Jewels, which I have not gotten yet. looks as an Infantry issued rifle from the disc.

  3. #3
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    '
    The same type of scope is pictured on page 94 of "Crown Jewels. The base on it is numbered 957"
    .
    Information on this type of scope is provided on page 94 of "Crown Jewels." There was a rubber gasket over the focusing ring on the scope. "Crown Jewels" gives a similarity of that scope to the AJACK 4x90 Model but with elevation and windage knobs similar to those made by the Czech company, Optitechna.

    Additional information on the AJACK 4x90 m/41 scope and mounts are on pages 95 and 96 of "Crown Jewels."


    .
    Last edited by buffdog; 05-17-2012 at 06:42 AM.
    I can make it to the front gate in 3.2 seconds. Can you do it in 3.1?

  4. #4
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    I might go off the reservation here...on the m/41 if the base/mount has a different number than the receiver that would be correct for the m/41 (not the m/41B). The base looks like the early type (some call it type 1), what I don't like is to see that it was obviously not secured? Some of the early types had lock screws later the lock screws were just replaced by punching the mounting screw heads I don't see any of that which may points to a later fit which I doubt was done by a Swedish armorer? The dowel pin holes should be drilled through, hard to tell if that is the case the holes seem to be obscured??? I have never seen a relief cut out on the right side of the stock for the fire bent bolt on a m/41 or a m/41B??? However the imprint on the receiver showing the shape of the type 1 base looks old and might point to a correct m/41 sniper setup?
    We know that the Swedish used three different scopes on the m/41, two Swedish built/manufactured scopes and the German Ajack 4x90. The scope I see looks like it has the Ajack body?
    It would be nice if you read this Dana any chance you can give us more info on the pictures on page 94 in your book in regard to this scope?

    Why do I asked that question? The company Adolph Jackenkroll( not Jackenroll) Optische Anstalt GmbH Berlin, which built the Ajack Scope had a unique way to mark their "prototype scopes", which I don't see in the pictures. Jackenkroll started way after the war in the 60's to equip the Ajack scope with windage and elevation turrets. However it might be that another company (Opticotechna) took an original Ajack scope and modified it, what are the chances that during the WWII a scope like that made its way to Sweden???
    What are the chances that a collector installed that scope after the war to complete a rifle???
    The sunshade on the front lens housing was not used by the Swedish Military even so it is quite an improvement. The German military figured that out and started using these shades early 40's, the shades you see is a movable type the early type, later Jackekroll changed the front lens lock ring and incorporated the shade by making the lock ring longer, which was a strictly military conversion!

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the comments. The taper pin holes do go through, they were just partly filled by old grease and dirt. There are no markings on the scope that I can see. Elevation goes up to 800m. Windage is marked only by lines, no numbers. Typical German three post reticule. Very clear and bright of course, at least 4x. Will post some more photos tonight.

    What does the marking disc in the butt tell us?

  6. #6
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    Your disc reads 15th Regiment of Infantry , 9th Company , rack #43 .

    Note the elevation & windage turret is split on the bottom with only one cross screw tightening it up on the scope tube . Looks like a place for moisture to enter . Maybe just a prototype . Looks more like trial & error rather than something that is a finished product . We know Swedish volunteers went to Finland , some with their own rifles . Maybe a civilian gunsmith was making these . Here is a civilian sniper , not the standard Swedish M41 sniper rifle . Unfortunately he was killed in action . Notice that the scope is to far forward for the correct eye relief . He has to hold the rifle in an awkward position to see through the scope .
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Swedish sniper ( KIA ) 001 (640x347).jpg  
    Last edited by swede; 05-17-2012 at 10:12 AM.

  7. #7
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    Thank you for that info! Interesting photo. That's a Zeiss Zielvier or a Helsoldt Dialytan I think. Looks like a professional mounting job. He must have had his reasons for mounting it that way. You don't have to use the full field of view of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross280 View Post
    Thank you for that info! Interesting photo. That's a Zeiss Zielvier or a Helsoldt Dialytan I think. Looks like a professional mounting job. He must have had his reasons for mounting it that way. You don't have to use the full field of view of course.
    The bolt wasn't bent on his rifle. The scope had to be mounted forward of the bolt to clear the knob.
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Hull View Post
    The bolt wasn't bent on his rifle. The scope had to be mounted forward of the bolt to clear the knob.
    Good observation Mike !!!!!!!!!! I think one of our members has a rifle like in the photo & maybe another sniper at the top of the page ?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by swede View Post
    Your disc reads 15th Regiment of Infantry , 9th Company , rack #43 .

    Note the elevation & windage turret is split on the bottom with only one cross screw tightening it up on the scope tube . Looks like a place for moisture to enter . Maybe just a prototype . Looks more like trial & error rather than something that is a finished product . We know Swedish volunteers went to Finland , some with their own rifles . Maybe a civilian gunsmith was making these . Here is a civilian sniper , not the standard Swedish M41 sniper rifle . Unfortunately he was killed in action . Notice that the scope is to far forward for the correct eye relief . He has to hold the rifle in an awkward position to see through the scope .
    The Scope in this Pic is a Zeiss Zielvier 100% certainty of that . As for the Ajack on the Sniper in Question it is a Ajack 4X90 with Windage and Elevation Adjustment only a Small Number of this Type are known to have been made and used , all so far have been found to have been used on the Swedish Sniper Rifles as mentioned in Crown Jewel . Best Regards

  11. #11

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    I had one of those exact scopes c/w sunshade mounted on a Swedish m/41 Sniper Rifle that was purchased in Montreal in the 1970 period.
    The lenses were coated also I believe.

    I sold it a few years later because I had other rifles at the same price that I had paid-don't ask.

    It was on barrel # 7 and in perfect shape.
    I am sure that everything was done in Sweden and original.

    Glenn
    Last edited by Stonewall2; 05-19-2012 at 07:52 PM.

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    Thanks for the info Stonewall2! We have several people who have or have seen that type of scope. That rules out that it is a job of one dealer, or one mechanic? They have only been seen on Swedish rifles which narrows down the location to Sweden? We know that they never made it in the official Swedish military parts catalog. Meaning they were not official military equipment?
    The information about the coating is important it would take the scope in the time period after 1955. That was the time when the Ajack scopes were upgraded with the coated lenses, which means away from the m/41 to the m/41B???

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    These are three Ajack scopes, to the left an Ajack 4x90 German military scope from a K98, in the middle a civilian Ajack 6x50, to the right a Swedish Ajack 4x90 on a ssr mount.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    One of the differences is the brass focus ring which is the (old) focus ring, the two other scopes have an Aluminium alloy ring. I have only seen the brass ring with graduation from -3 to +3 scale on the Swedish Ajack scope.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The two Ajack 4x90 Scopes, left and right have coated lenses as you can see in the blue shade of the glass, the older Ajack 6x50 does not have the coating! Even the two Ajack 4x90 are separated in regard to the coating by 16+ years! The Swedish Ajack scope received the coating in 1955 which made it a "B" model.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The German military Ajack 4x90 shows the letter "V" behind the serial number. That "V" stands for the German word Versuchsmodell. Which means test, experiment, prototype. It was as well used for a very limited series of scopes that were supposed to be exported for a unique purpose. The scopes delivered to Finland in a similar contract like the Swedish Government had with the manufacturer Jackenkroll had a "V" in their serial number as well.
    Due to the missing marking of manufacturer, magnification, light gathering factor, and the missing "V" I do not believe that the scope in question was made by Adolf Jackenkroll in Berlin. Even so it seems that an Ajack 4x90 scope was used to built the scope in question.
    These scopes belonged to the Swedish government so some how the Swedish government must have been involved in building these prototypes???
    The scopes seem to have no manufacturer markings which avoids legal patent/license issues with the original Jackenkroll manufacturer.
    (e.x. FN in Belgium protesting to remove "Browning's Patent" marking on the Husqvarna manufactured Pistol m/07)
    Last edited by box; 05-19-2012 at 10:27 PM.

  14. #14
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    Ross280, any chance that you make more pictures of your scope? If possible check the coating of the lenses just hold the front lens under a light source if you see a blue shade or even colors like in a rainbow it means you have coated lenses. Please check the scope again for markings and a picture of the brass focus ring would be really nice.
    Any chance you take the rifle apart? Can you make pictures of the crown marks and numbers? The cartouches in the wrist area???

    What ever it is it is scarce!

  15. #15
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    Thanks box, Stonewall2, and everyone else who has replied. I cleaned and lubricated the scope the other day. I have some experience working on scopes, or I wouldn't try, believe me! I took a few photos while doing the cleaning & oiling. I'll take some of the rifle cartouches tomorrow. There are a few numbers hand scribed in certain inconspicuous places like under the focus ring, inside the sunshade and so on. I think I got photos of at least one set.

    I don't see any sign of lens coatings, the glass doesn't have that tint as I recall. I think the focus ring is aluminum, not brass, but it could be plated. I'll have to look again.

    I'll take the rifle out of the stock tomorrow and take some photos of that too.

    http://imageshack.us/g/18/dscf0288bq.jpg/
    Last edited by Ross280; 05-20-2012 at 07:49 PM.

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    Based on your first picture it seems you have the brass ring. They are chemically(acid) darkened. The aluminum ones(German military) came coated. If your scope does not have coated lenses it brings it back in the time period between 1941 and 1955. They probable used then an original(1.contract) Ajack 4x90, which itself is rare I have not seen one of them. Before 1955 they were sent back to Jackenkroll for the upgrade to the "B" model. I am interested in the brass ring marking if it even has a marking??? Maybe just a line engraved in the tube and a "0" mark. That would be an interesting information.
    Your scope mount looks original to me. If you take off the rear scope arm which is held by the two 3.5mm screws, one on each side be careful not to apply force they sheer off easily, slide the arms out the dovetail should be cut out in an arch. If so I am pretty sure it is original.
    Last edited by box; 05-26-2012 at 07:08 AM.

  17. #17
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    Box, I've had a close look at the focus ring and I am sure it is aluminum, not brass. In places where it has got bumped the base metal is exposed and it's all the same colour. I can't find any markings on it at all.

    I took the rifle out of the stock today and photographed the marks I could find. There is a Plasticine-like material under the barrel and the front of the action as shown in the photos, but it's nowhere else. Is this original?

    Thanks for the tip on the screws.

    The knobs have a captive ball bearing detent and the click on the elevation knob is much less positive than the windage knob, so the scope has had quite a bit of use I think. It's not the adjustment as I lubricated the ball and spring and have adjusted the screw.

    The knobs are brutal on the fingers due to the sharp edges. Maybe they were intended for gloved hands?

    Would this rifle and scope have been some kind of experimental setup, would that explain the mismatching numbers, or were rifles and scopes just put together from parts to "tidy up" when the Swedish Army was were selling off the M41s?













    Last edited by Ross280; 05-20-2012 at 08:11 PM.

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    Ross, the picture shows the focus ring of a "B" model scope which came into service 1955.Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	548650The next focus ring is a standard Ajack focus ring.
    Any chance that you make a picture of yours??? Any chance you make pictures of the lenses and lens housing....? PLEASE.
    I have a theory in regard to the focus ring and was not able to confirm it due to the fact that original Ajack scopes for the m/41 were sent back to Jackenkroll for the "B" upgrade. Your scope might be a sort of a transition trial version using an original Ajack scope for the m/41.

    The bedding is not original to the m/41 or the m/41B. The stock is the original stock showing original serial number like on the receiver.
    "Swede" knows more about stock markings and history of bedding, bet he will tell you more about that?

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    Thanks again! Some photos of the lens housings. Front housing measures 48.78mm dia., rear measures 38.12mm dia. Rear measures 50.6mm long from where it joins the main tube. Front housing is approx. 62mm long.









    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    The focus ring is about 30.2mm dia. and 24.33mm long. The forward shoulder where the markings are is 6.0mm wide.






    Thanks for the info on the bedding. Would there be any important markings on the underside of the barrel that are covered by that Plasticine material?

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    Now this is not just interesting, it is getting fascinating to me!

  21. #21
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    The bedding material is probably hiding the barrel serial number . Most of the snipers were made up at Stockholm & have the Crown/S on the wrist of the stock , like yours . If they replaced to barrel , it may have a Crown/S on it as well , under the bedding .

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    Ross, the focus ring is correct. It is made out of aluminium alloy and darkened not by coating like the German rings of that time. The majority are made out of brass, but I have seen them in aluminium there are more scarce. The important feature is the marking from-3 to +3 that is unique for the Ajack scopes used by the Swedish military. I have only seen another civilian post war Ajack scope with a focus ring marking and it was clearly expressed that it was done by customer request.
    I was first skeptical when I saw your scope as I was when I looked at the one on page 94 of Crown Jewels. It seems these scopes are legit. That would mean we have now 4 scopes for the m/41???
    This morning I found a reference to that scope in the fifth edition of the book "Mauser, Military Rifles of the World", written by Robert W.D.Ball.
    On page 365 it shows a beautiful m/41 with the scope you have and calls it an AGA 41(???), it mentions the AGA 42 as well the AGA 44 with pictures next to it.
    To my shame I have to admit that I don't know much about the AGA scopes, however AGA in Sweden built two scopes for the m/41 maybe they were involved in making the modifications to some Ajack 4x90 scopes???
    The book can be viewed online at books.google.com, search for Mauser, Military Rifles of the World, make sure you look at the fifth edition! Go to page 365.
    Last edited by box; 05-22-2012 at 08:07 AM.

  23. #23
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    Thank you box for that info. I wonder if AGA purchased a stock of lenses from Germany before or after the war, or could they have purchased a license to build their model of the Ajack 4x90?

    Based on aluminum focus ring do you feel this is German made scope?

    Do records about this sort of thing still exist in Sweden, or does it all get thrown away as in some other countries?

    Unfortunately I could only view about the first 100 pages of that Mauser book you mentioned. The other pages were not available even with a Google login.

    Does anyone have scans or screen shots of these books we've talked about?

  24. #24
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    Mauser Military Rifles of the World - Robert W. D. Ball - Google Books

    This will bring you to the opening page. In the upper right corner you will find a menu field "Front Cover" and an arrow next to it click on the arrow it will open the content of the book, which will show countries to select, scroll down to Sweden, Page 360. You will see some wonderful pictures from our moderator "Dutchman"! Scroll to page 365.

    Unfortunately they don't let you make pictures or select pictures to download to your computer. I would have done that if possible.

  25. #25
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    To my knowledge the manufacturer of the Ajack scopes, Adolf Jackenkroll Optische Anstalt GmbH Berlin never allowed to built their products under a license agreement. For example like Mauser allowed the Swedish Government to build the m/96 rifle family, or FN in Belgium allowed to build the pistol m/07 under license.
    All Ajack scopes were built in Germany, the once that were used by the German military had aluminum focus rings with a black coating( like paint). The Ajack scopes built for the Swedish contract had mostly brass focus rings, some had aluminum focus rings with a chemical darkening, more important they had an engraving on it from -3 to +3 on the forward shoulder of the ring.
    The Ajack 4x90 was in the Swedish military system as m/41 (like the rifle), the AGA 42 scope as m/42, the AGA 44 scope as m/44.

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    I cannot get into those pages either Box.

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    I have to correct one of my previous information. I mentioned that Jackenkroll offered windage and elevation adjustment in double turrets in the early 1960's. They offered it in the early 1950's! Please see below pictures of their Ajack 4x90 scopes with double turret design.Click image for larger version. 

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    The adjustment covered by metal caps is still used today on scopes other manufacturer. The design is different than the scope Ross has on his rifle.
    The trial of these scopes must have given the Swedish military not satisfactory results because they did not continue with the development. When the Swedish military sent back the scopes to Jackenkroll shortly before 1955 to obtain the upgrade to multi coated lenses they had the choice to request the double turret design with incorporated windage adjustment Jackenkroll had the parts and was selling their scopes at the time on the market. The Swedish did not request that option. The scope housing/tube as well the lens housing is the same just the turret itself is a different design.
    The scope in the picture is estimated to have been build in 1952.

    The Adolf Jackenkroll Optische Anstalt GmbH Berlin was founded in 1879 and folded in 1962. They started early on to manufacturer rifle scopes. Already in WWI had German snipers Ajack scopes. Jackenkroll was building photo and film cameras as well. In 1935 the Zeiss company in Germany developed the multi coating of lenses, shortly after was Jackenkroll able to use that technology. It was regarded as military secret.

  28. #28
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    Box, thanks again for your excellent information. So it's starting to look like this was a modification that Ajack may have suggested to the Swedes and perhaps provided a few examples from trials purposes, but which the Swedes chose not to accept?

    Or would these be new-made scopes provided by Ajack with a modification they were offering to the Swedes to be included when the other scopes were overhauled with coated lenses, but which the Swedish Army chose not to accept?

    Hang on, I know the answer, maybe ;-) no coated lenses in this scope so either this was a modification done in Sweden, or by Ajack, at an earlier time than the coated lenses overhaul, otherwise presumably it would have had the lenses coated at the same time? Does that make sense?

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    Ross, now we are going into speculation! Which I normally end with a lot question marks. I have no prove or information about the scope you have other what is written in certain books or we all have gathered here in this forum.
    Let sum up what we know and is accepted knowledge. The contract the Swedish Government had with Jackenkroll was to deliver 4000 scopes. I have no information if that number was exactly matched? Based on serial numbers I believe it was either matched or close to be 4000. The scopes delivered to Sweden were not of the latest technology Jackenkroll was able to deliver. The multi coated lenses were a military secret at the time, Sweden received scopes from Jackenkroll that were built of stock parts the lenses were not coated.
    The scope you have I have not seen being published as Ajack scope made by Jackenkroll. However it seems that an Ajack scope body as well the lenses have been used to build the scope you have. Which seems to be one of a small group of scopes.
    Due to the fact that we know that the Swedish military received the multi coated lenses in 1955 during an upgrade program to the "B"model, I believe it is safe to say that your scope was built in the time period from 1941 to 1955. The Ajack scope made in Germany was the first scope taken into service for the Swedish sniper weapon program in 1941. The Swedish Military wanted a larger number of rifles being equipped with scopes. Germany was only willing or able to deliver 4000 scopes, the number I have seen based on the information given in "Crown Jewels, written by Dana Jones", was that 5300 Sniper rifles were built. The Swedish started to built and use their own scopes first the AGA 42 (1942), then the upgraded version the AGA 44 (1944) to reach that number.
    In 1955 the Swedish Government decided to upgrade/modernize their sniper rifle from m/41 to m/41B version, which included an upgrade of the scopes. The previous delivered Ajack scopes were sent back to Germany to Jackenkroll and received coated lenses. It seems that your type of scope was not sent back and didn't receive that upgrade, which to me leans to the assumption that these scopes were not modified or built by the original manufacturer Jackenkroll ??? The Swedish built scopes did not receive the upgrade to multi coated lenses either.
    The scope you have is missing the Jackenkroll markings for a test model, which is to me another indication that these scopes were not modified/built by Jackenkroll.
    I believe the modification was done in Sweden??? I have no prove for that!
    These scopes seem to exist in a small number that is a fact, it seems they have only been installed on m/41 rifles.
    Last edited by box; 05-24-2012 at 10:56 PM.

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    Box, excellent information again, thank you very much. I found a little info on the The Älvsborg Regiment

    The regiment was first established in 1624 as the Älvsborg Regiment. The regiment was linked to the Allotment System in 1683.

    In 1949 the regiment was reorganized into an armored infantry regiment. In 1963 the regiment once again was reorganized and this time back to a regular infantry regiment.
    I can't find any information on this regiment's current role, but they seem to be based around a town called Borås. Is it possible they have a regimental museum who might know something about this?

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    Had the M41 out the range. With the Norma silver tip she'll do well inside an inch. Forgot our targets in the rush to get home in time though. Next time.

    Now listed here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...25#post2203025
    Last edited by Ross280; 07-03-2012 at 06:21 PM.

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