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.308 Conversions, Spanish/South American Mausers

11K views 49 replies 18 participants last post by  ar10ar15man 
#1 ·
Hi all, I know this subject has been discussed several times, but all I need is a yes or no.

Are surplus 7.62 NATO (non-commerical) loads safe to fire in these conversions? Are there any loads to watch out for?

Also are the loads by Prvi Partizan OK in these rifles?

Lastly, what's your opinion on rifles converted done by Gov't arsenals, good, bad or what?

Thanks so much!!!!

Greg
 
#36 ·
Hi Guys, no didn't leave the country! Not yet. Sorry I kind of lost track on this one.

I really was not refering to anyone gun, just you general thoughts on the subject.

But, it seems like there are a lot of Spanish 1916's available, and 7.62 is fairly cheap.

So....what say you about this gun/cartridge combo?

Thanks again and sorry!

Greg
 
#37 ·
"Cheap" is a poor criterea .......

Hi Guys, no didn't leave the country! Not yet. Sorry I kind of lost track on this one.

I really was not refering to anyone gun, just you general thoughts on the subject.

But, it seems like there are a lot of Spanish 1916's available, and 7.62 is fairly cheap.

So....what say you about this gun/cartridge combo?

Thanks again and sorry!

Greg

If you are interested in Spanish military history, you need one. Otherwise, if you want a 7.62 military rifle to shoot a lot, get an Israeli or Chilean short rifle where the conversion involved a new barrel. If you want a .308 to hunt with, get a Savage 110.

If you want an inexpensive military rifle to shoot a lot, I recommend a Yugoslav or Turkish 98 action system rifle or a Czech VZ-24. All can be found for less than $200 with good bores if you look. The 7.92 x57 is just as good as 7.62 Nato for plinking targets with a milsurp.

If you specifically want a small ring Mauser to shoot, get a Swedish 1896 or 38. Or a Chilean 1895 if you can find one.

You asked for advice and there is mine. I have been shooting Mausers for 50 years and currently handload for 6.5, 7, 7.62, 7.65 and 7.92 bore sizes for them. I shoot a number of nice "collector" weapons with as much care as possible and often hunt with Mausers showing varying degrees of "Bubba" craftsmanship. It is a lot of fun, to me.

Disclaimer: I do not own a Spanish 1916 and the only Spanish Mausers I have owned and shot are in 7x57. I do not personally know anyone who has been killed/maimed by a 1916 7.62 conversion like I do know about with automobiles, horses, cows, wars, airplanes, wives, brother-in-laws, etc., but I would not go out and buy a converted 1916 to shoot a lot when there are simply many other, and IMO better, choices.
 
#40 ·
Well now, that magazine article sounds pretty good. We all know how magazine writers get their facts 100% correct all of the time. One would expect that, the story being correct, SAMCO would feature that information in their M1916 Mauser ads. Below is what they currently have to say on their website where space is not a cost issue:



M1916 Spanish Mauser

Cal. .308 Win


Manufactured at famous Oviedo factory in Spain for the Spanish Army. Converted to use ever plentiful 7.62 Nato (.308WIN) round. Short rifle. Polished turned down bolt, 5 round magazine, fixed side support and sling swivel.
Barrel: 21" Overall: 44.3"
We can ship now. Order YOURS for the Hunting Season!
 
#41 ·
what i left out, since i posted the article, is that you can call samco, and they will fax you a copy.
i doubt hp white would allow thier name in print if the data was not correct.
maybe you can call them and confrim the data ?
mike in co
Well now, that magazine article sounds pretty good. We all know how magazine writers get their facts 100% correct all of the time. One would expect that, the story being correct, SAMCO would feature that information in their M1916 Mauser ads. Below is what they currently have to say on their website where space is not a cost issue:



M1916 Spanish Mauser

Cal. .308 Win


Manufactured at famous Oviedo factory in Spain for the Spanish Army. Converted to use ever plentiful 7.62 Nato (.308WIN) round. Short rifle. Polished turned down bolt, 5 round magazine, fixed side support and sling swivel.
Barrel: 21" Overall: 44.3"
We can ship now. Order YOURS for the Hunting Season!

 
#43 ·
naw , i dont have one.
you questioned it, go for it.
i just see humor in most of the "don't do this" post by people with no facts.
i have an fr8, an fn israeli and a parkerhale all in conversions.....
i'm good
40 posts when 4/5 would have done...
first reply should have been ...WHAT RIFLE.
then facts could have followed, instead we get 30 plus posts of bs..because they do not know what rifle....

mike in co
 
#44 · (Edited)
Ar10Ar15 Man,

I was right, sort of, the Man was asking about a Small Ring Spanish Mauser. A 1916 Spanish Mauser in this case.
The reason I knew this, or assumed this is because I didnt think the question would make sense if he was asking about one of the Large Ring mauser variety, because anyone who knows anything at all about firearms, knows that a Large Ring Mauser can handle the pressure of a .308 Winchester. Sometimes I make the mistake of assuming that everyone has common sense.

If it helps, I own a 1916 Spanish Mauser, that I ordered from Samco Global Arms, and shoot it fairly regularly.
It is very accurate, The Stock looks like the surface of The Moon, and the Blueing is gone, but the Rifeling is very good, there is no pitting, and the Rifle has a very good crown. I shoot handloads in it, Very Mild Handloads, and plink sometimes with Tula Steel Cased ammo. My Rifle that I recieved does not feed soft points very well at all, but cycles reliably with Full Metal Jacket Spitzers. The long pointed bullets line up in the chamber and cycle, but the soft points often jam on the breach. Anyhow, to the poster good luck and dont let the internet hype scare you away from these rifles, they are worth having, and are nice shooters.
 
#45 ·
Spanish Mauser issues.

Small Ring Spanish Mauser.

For those whose minds are not made up, I suggest a reading of the discussion in Kuhnhausen's book "The Mauser Bolt Actions, a shop manual" of Mauser receiver hardness, lug recess setback and caliber recommendations for re-barreling small ring Mausers. I have had personal experience with lug setback in the 1893 in the original 7x57. It becomes quite difficult to open the action after firing and the cases stretch.

The companies that reline barrels have definate upper limits of the cartridge pressure range that they will turn out (well below 60,000 psi) and the companies that sell pre-fit barrels for small ring Mausers generally limit cartridges to 7x57 or .35 Reminton, etc. The Swedes did all kinds of modifications to M1896 actions (9.3x62, .30/06, .270 Win) but they were working with probably the best of the small ring (pre-1898) actions. It helps that Mauser actions tend to stretch from excessive pressure rather than fragment.

In the end, Machiavelli summed up: "An unwise prince cannot be well advised".
 
#46 ·
i have his book, and i have read it, at the time, it occured to me that it was opinion, not fact. i did not understand why he did not have lab testing done, he has lots of experience , and the comments should not be passed over lightly, but in this case, i will take hp white lab testing.
just my OPINION.
mike in co
 
#48 ·
H.P. White test, etc.



I would describe Kuhnhausen's opinion as an educated one and yes, he stresses safety. Not a bad stance, IMO. Variability in hardness of the Spanish small ring actions has been noted since at least the "sporterizing" period of the 1960's and eventual lug setback is the most likely problem if you take the action beyond its design and material limits. I am quite certain H.P. White did not proof test "all" of these rifles for Samco as I have read on the net (not in the Samco ad); I have not seen a statement of the Spanish testing protocol after the reline work. P.O. Ackely tested a variety of military actions for strength in the 1950's and 1960's and the take home then was that strength itself is less a problem with milsurps than gas handling after the case fails. The 98 Mauser and the Japanese Arisaka were star performers, as I recall. I simply do not use questionable surplus ammo for that reason. Others do. I note that Mauser kept working on bolt action design after the 1893 and stopped after the 1898 design. To go out today and buy a "shooter" milsurp, I would look for a 98 action based rifle. Period. If I had a 1916 Cetme caliber rifle, I would shoot it but I would handload cautiously. At the moment, I have an Israeli 7.62 which I use with 7.62 Nato and my handloads; it gives satisfaction. I now promise these are my last comments on the issue.
 
#49 ·
The White laboratories testing addressed strength issues only.

There is no question that the pre 98 small ring Mauser is more than strong enough for 7.62x51, and even commercial .308. I came up with about 90% of the strength of the 98 mauser by measurement of 1893s and the White Lab tests verify that. And the "third lug" of the 98 and 95 seems to have been more for a sales pitch in competition with the split bridge Mannlichers than a real safety feature.

BUT there is also no question that even in those pre 98 models with some bolt gas porting the gas handling and shielding is nowhere near as effective as on the 98 mausers. And the .308 is not only often loaded to high pressures, but the case is also lighter than the 7.62x51, making burst cases more likely and, in the pre 98's, also much more dangerous. Also my experience has been that Bubba is more likely to experiment with stupidly high pressure loads in the .308 than in any other cartridge, and that commercial reloaders also tend to cut corners by using smaller quantities of fast burning powders, which is risky unless you are very careful. This makes it very dangerous to shoot any rounds except factory military standard 7.62x51 or your own low pressure reloads in any of the .308 conversions.

Setback is another problem, and not necessarily limited to pre 98s. I suspect its a quality control problem as most early mausers, pre 1920s, were surface hardened and the receivers not heat treat hardened much, if at all. If the lug recesses weren't properly hardened then after a very little wear setback would occur. So far I've only seen it in a few very badly worn 1891s and 1893s, but I've avoided the .308 conversions and have little experience with them.
 
#50 ·
it is an opinion you have posted...and i dont agree...one of the nice things about this world.
i shoot a lot of 308..and have three guns that are chambered in 7.62 nato...2 98's and an ar10.
i have shot hot, but not passed max. i have shot heavy and light bullets. i have a benchrest rifle in 308 win br.
i have shot 600 yd matches with 175's when the world thought 168 was ideal.
i have never had a case fail...never.
i think you are over stating the bubba/pre98 issue...
can it happen, yes...how often...very seldom.
i have never seen it
just my opinon.....

mike in co
The White laboratories testing addressed strength issues only.

There is no question that the pre 98 small ring Mauser is more than strong enough for 7.62x51, and even commercial .308. I came up with about 90% of the strength of the 98 mauser by measurement of 1893s and the White Lab tests verify that. And the "third lug" of the 98 and 95 seems to have been more for a sales pitch in competition with the split bridge Mannlichers than a real safety feature.

BUT there is also no question that even in those pre 98 models with some bolt gas porting the gas handling and shielding is nowhere near as effective as on the 98 mausers. And the .308 is not only often loaded to high pressures, but the case is also lighter than the 7.62x51, making burst cases more likely and, in the pre 98's, also much more dangerous. Also my experience has been that Bubba is more likely to experiment with stupidly high pressure loads in the .308 than in any other cartridge, and that commercial reloaders also tend to cut corners by using smaller quantities of fast burning powders, which is risky unless you are very careful. This makes it very dangerous to shoot any rounds except factory military standard 7.62x51 or your own low pressure reloads in any of the .308 conversions.

Setback is another problem, and not necessarily limited to pre 98s. I suspect its a quality control problem as most early mausers, pre 1920s, were surface hardened and the receivers not heat treat hardened much, if at all. If the lug recesses weren't properly hardened then after a very little wear setback would occur. So far I've only seen it in a few very badly worn 1891s and 1893s, but I've avoided the .308 conversions and have little experience with them.
 
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