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.308 Conversions, Spanish/South American Mausers

11K views 49 replies 18 participants last post by  ar10ar15man 
#1 ·
Hi all, I know this subject has been discussed several times, but all I need is a yes or no.

Are surplus 7.62 NATO (non-commerical) loads safe to fire in these conversions? Are there any loads to watch out for?

Also are the loads by Prvi Partizan OK in these rifles?

Lastly, what's your opinion on rifles converted done by Gov't arsenals, good, bad or what?

Thanks so much!!!!

Greg
 
#4 · (Edited)
Firstly, the Spanish and Latin American Converted Rifles ARE NOT ".308" rifles--- they are 7,62x51 Rifles, for use with Military ammo. Some importers simply stamped ".308" on (Spanish) converts, to facilitate sales in the "non-metric" USA. Notice I did NOT say "7,62 Nato", as Spain originally converted these rifles to use their own 7,62x51 Cetme Cartridge, and the Latin Users did not belong to the "NATO" circle, even though their ammo followed "NATO" Spec for the most part.

Now the actual metallurgy of the various conversions:
Israel... New Barrels to Mauser Kar98k profile, some made by FN, majority made by IMI. NO problems with either Military 7,62 or Commercial .308 Winchester.
Spain: Original Barrels ( M95 and M1916) Bored out, and a complete Liner fitted ( including chamber) and soldered in place. Some barrels show "flaking" of the outer tube from the inner sleeve; but otherwise, the "Tubing" ( Tubado) conversion is Sound, if used with proper Spanish 7,62x51 Ammo.
Any use of US Commercial .308 can lead to Barrel splits, receiver locking shoulder set back, and even cracked bolt lugs in the long term. This includes the FR-7 trainer made from M93/95/16 actions

Advice: use lower pressure Military ammo in Spanish converted rifles, or 80-90% Handloads of Military loads. Avoid commercial .308 ammo if you value your rifle and your physical integrity.
Spanish FR-8 short training rifles: made from M43 (98) Actions, so will be stronger than the M95 and M16 conversions. But originally made to be a "training substitute" in the 1950s, for the newly introduced 7,62 Cetme Assault rifle
( same cartridge, same sighting system, same bayonet and slinging arrangement, same OAL.)
Latin American Conversions: This refers mostly to Chile, but Peru, Brazil, and some other LA countiures converted some Mauser to 7,62mm in the 1950s-60s.
Chile: two types of conversion: For the M95 type Mausers, barrel sleeved by the Spanish method, but with this difference: barrel sleeve only takes up Part of the chamber, the rear being the original &mm chamber; the Joint between sleeve and chamber is soldered, and may become rough enough to cause case extraction problems with heavy use. Otherwise, normal 7,62 Ammo is ok.
For the M1912 Steyr Mausers ( marked "M1912/61" or simply "NATO") the Barrels have been replaced with re-cut Springfield Barrels ( 30/06 chamber shortened and recxut to 7,62x51, and rethreaded to fit Mauser receiver. THis is for the "Short Rifle" version. The rarer "Long rifle" ( 29inch Brl.) Conversion is also a "sleeve" type conversion. (AFAIK).

As these rifles were converted for use as Trainers and Police rifles, they were not made to fire on a heavy basis...more than likely a couple of clips a year, for Qualification, and that's it.
Advice: again, given the diverse nature of the Receiver types ( two lug and three-lug) and the age of the Actions...use low power 7,62 ammo, preferabl;ey 80% handloads.

Brazil: the M968 Mosquete "MosqueFal" 7,62 was made up using new or almost new DWM 1909 Actions, with New-made Barrels in 7,62mm...so any ammo can be used.

Peru: Peru converted a lot of its 7,65 rifles to .30/06, post-WW II...and some of its Short Rifles (FN M32) can also be found in 7.62mm..I have one, and the barrel looks like it has bveen rechambered and slightly set back (ie from 7,65 to 7,62)..the Bore is still 7,65 specs, so any shooting with BT bullets is likely to be less than accurate. Again, these rifles were made of "internal" Training and Policing work, and so would not have had large amounts of ammo through them. IN fact my example ( an FN32) has a bore that is almost brand new. Being a M98 design action, with a "solid" barrel, I would not have any problems with using .308 Commercial, but would prefer not to ( Rifle condition, value etc.).

Other L-A 7,62 conversions...Depends on who did the conversions, and how, and on whjat actions (see above details)

General considerations: on all "7,62" Conversions, whether new Barrel, completely rebored and rechambered barrel, or "Tubada" barrels, I would only use 7,62 Milsurp or Reduced charge Handloads, to the 45,000 CUP level, to match the early 7mm Actions (M93 and 95 types); Only the Israeli and the Brazilian and Spanish FR-8 would I even venture the use of "commercial" .308 ammo.

Regards,
Doc AV
 
#39 ·
maybe you should change a few things in your post based on the hp white testing of the 1916 rilfes...

mike in co
Firstly, the Spanish and Latin American Converted Rifles ARE NOT ".308" rifles--- they are 7,62x51 Rifles, for use with Military ammo. Some importers simply stamped ".308" on (Spanish) converts, to facilitate sales in the "non-metric" USA. Notice I did NOT say "7,62 Nato", as Spain originally converted these rifles to use their own 7,62x51 Cetme Cartridge, and the Latin Users did not belong to the "NATO" circle, even though their ammo followed "NATO" Spec for the most part.

Now the actual metallurgy of the various conversions:
Israel... New Barrels to Mauser Kar98k profile, some made by FN, majority made by IMI. NO problems with either Military 7,62 or Commercial .308 Winchester.
Spain: Original Barrels ( M95 and M1916) Bored out, and a complete Liner fitted ( including chamber) and soldered in place. Some barrels show "flaking" of the outer tube from the inner sleeve; but otherwise, the "Tubing" ( Tubado) conversion is Sound, if used with proper Spanish 7,62x51 Ammo.
Any use of US Commercial .308 can lead to Barrel splits, receiver locking shoulder set back, and even cracked bolt lugs in the long term. This includes the FR-7 trainer made from M93/95/16 actions

Advice: use lower pressure Military ammo in Spanish converted rifles, or 80-90% Handloads of Military loads. Avoid commercial .308 ammo if you value your rifle and your physical integrity.
Spanish FR-8 short training rifles: made from M43 (98) Actions, so will be stronger than the M95 and M16 conversions. But originally made to be a "training substitute" in the 1950s, for the newly introduced 7,62 Cetme Assault rifle
( same cartridge, same sighting system, same bayonet and slinging arrangement, same OAL.)
Latin American Conversions: This refers mostly to Chile, but Peru, Brazil, and some other LA countiures converted some Mauser to 7,62mm in the 1950s-60s.
Chile: two types of conversion: For the M95 type Mausers, barrel sleeved by the Spanish method, but with this difference: barrel sleeve only takes up Part of the chamber, the rear being the original &mm chamber; the Joint between sleeve and chamber is soldered, and may become rough enough to cause case extraction problems with heavy use. Otherwise, normal 7,62 Ammo is ok.
For the M1912 Steyr Mausers ( marked "M1912/61" or simply "NATO") the Barrels have been replaced with re-cut Springfield Barrels ( 30/06 chamber shortened and recxut to 7,62x51, and rethreaded to fit Mauser receiver. THis is for the "Short Rifle" version. The rarer "Long rifle" ( 29inch Brl.) Conversion is also a "sleeve" type conversion. (AFAIK).

As these rifles were converted for use as Trainers and Police rifles, they were not made to fire on a heavy basis...more than likely a couple of clips a year, for Qualification, and that's it.
Advice: again, given the diverse nature of the Receiver types ( two lug and three-lug) and the age of the Actions...use low power 7,62 ammo, preferabl;ey 80% handloads.

Brazil: the M968 Mosquete "MosqueFal" 7,62 was made up using new or almost new DWM 1909 Actions, with New-made Barrels in 7,62mm...so any ammo can be used.

Peru: Peru converted a lot of its 7,65 rifles to .30/06, post-WW II...and some of its Short Rifles (FN M32) can also be found in 7.62mm..I have one, and the barrel looks like it has bveen rechambered and slightly set back (ie from 7,65 to 7,62)..the Bore is still 7,65 specs, so any shooting with BT bullets is likely to be less than accurate. Again, these rifles were made of "internal" Training and Policing work, and so would not have had large amounts of ammo through them. IN fact my example ( an FN32) has a bore that is almost brand new. Being a M98 design action, with a "solid" barrel, I would not have any problems with using .308 Commercial, but would prefer not to ( Rifle condition, value etc.).

Other L-A 7,62 conversions...Depends on who did the conversions, and how, and on whjat actions (see above details)

General considerations: on all "7,62" Conversions, whether new Barrel, completely rebored and rechambered barrel, or "Tubada" barrels, I would only use 7,62 Milsurp or Reduced charge Handloads, to the 45,000 CUP level, to match the early 7mm Actions (M93 and 95 types); Only the Israeli and the Brazilian and Spanish FR-8 would I even venture the use of "commercial" .308 ammo.

Regards,
Doc AV
 
#6 ·
Yes, Gremlin, you did, but sometimes generalities cause more questions about specifics...that's why the long winded answer ( to cover A** and all bases as well)
And I suppose there will still be more questions about the differences between ".308" and 7,62mm, and also SAAMI and CIP and Nato specs, and so on ad infinitum.

Regards,
Doc AV
 
#9 ·
you need to do some outside research. the experts here have done no lab testing. white labs did do testing.
go read the results...it actually been posted here.
mike in co
Hi all, I know this subject has been discussed several times, but all I need is a yes or no.

Are surplus 7.62 NATO (non-commerical) loads safe to fire in these conversions? Are there any loads to watch out for?

Also are the loads by Prvi Partizan OK in these rifles?

Lastly, what's your opinion on rifles converted done by Gov't arsenals, good, bad or what?

Thanks so much!!!!

Greg
 
#10 ·
Peruvian Mauser conversions were made in 2 different moments.

After WWII the US sold or gave a lot of 30-06 weaponry to many SA countries, so a batch of 1st line rifles were converted so a single caliber would be employed. In the early '50s the FN-1935 short rifles & carbines were the MBRs employed, while 1909s, VZ-32s & 24s still in 7.65x53mm were either stored, used by other units (Such as Air Force or Navy infantry), or detached to non-combatants such as Police, firemen, customs and State-sponsored civilian shooting clubs.

Thousands of FN-1935 short rifles (Still can't find a trusted source stating how many, but could be around 10,000 or so) along with a handful of 1909s were sent to Belgium probably in the early '50s to be "upgraded" by the manufacturer with new 30-06 barrels and related modifications (Receiver cut, ".30" stamp, etc.).
But then only a few years later the then-new FAL rifle in 7.62 NATO was adopted, so it was decided to send a 2nd. batch of FN-1935 short rifles & carbines along with VERY few 1909s (So far I've only seen one with shortened stock & 24" barrel) back to FN for the same modification, this time including a refinishing job (Dark grey parkerization) along with brand-new 7.62 NATO barrels, a magazine block to avoid loading the gun with the longer 7.65 or 30-06, and the "7.62" stamp. Once back, those guns (Probably another 10,000 or so) were either stored as reserve weapons or used in troop training; shooting clubs and Police kept the 7.65 Mausers 'till ammo supply got low and then switched to 7.62 FN35s (Last year the last remaining stock of around 200 of those still in Police depots was destroyed) while the firemen were not armed anymore.

The remaining FN35s along with most Mausers still in 7.65 or in 30-06 were sold as surplus to the US in the mid-60s, and only very few remained here in private hands, gun collections and Army depots that weren't able to delivery rifles on time for the surplus sale.

Either in 30-06 or 7.62NATO, both factory-made conversion jobs were excellent. My FN1935 works like a dream and shoots accurately even with the crappy local production or Chinese-made ammo the Army gives us registered shooters for the State-sponsored matches.

 
#12 ·
me thinks you need to identify the specifc rifle.....
cause it will make a difference.......
some question the spanish fr7, but the fr8 was built around the cetme and the 7.62 nato round.

mike in co
Hi all, I know this subject has been discussed several times, but all I need is a yes or no.

Are surplus 7.62 NATO (non-commerical) loads safe to fire in these conversions? Are there any loads to watch out for?

Also are the loads by Prvi Partizan OK in these rifles?

Lastly, what's your opinion on rifles converted done by Gov't arsenals, good, bad or what?

Thanks so much!!!!

Greg
 
#14 ·
Not to reopen a can of worms, but if you think that a particular rifle is unsafe to shoot with commercial .308 because of high pressure, it is also unsafe to shoot with 7.62 NATO. The idea that they are loaded to different pressures is a net rumor that has been debunked and was based on different pressure gauges used to measure the pressure. The new STANAG standard pressure specs use the same gauge as the CIP standard and the pressure values for 7.62 NATO and commercial .308 are the same when you measure them with the same gauge. Err on the side of safety.
 
#15 ·
since you brought it up..
.how about some DOCUMENTED FACTS to go with your comments....
( i happen to agree that the difference in the two are neligable)
mike in co
Not to reopen a can of worms, but if you think that a particular rifle is unsafe to shoot with commercial .308 because of high pressure, it is also unsafe to shoot with 7.62 NATO. The idea that they are loaded to different pressures is a net rumor that has been debunked and was based on different pressure gauges used to measure the pressure. The new STANAG standard pressure specs use the same gauge as the CIP standard and the pressure values for 7.62 NATO and commercial .308 are the same when you measure them with the same gauge. Err on the side of safety.
 
#17 ·
You can follow the links in the Wikipedia entry for 7.62 NATO to the original literature for the STANAG and CIP specs.

There is also the February 2008 issue of American Rifleman, page 20, where the editors deal with the ".308 vs 7.62, what's the difference" question. They say:

"Unlike using 5.56 x 45 mm NATO ammunnition in .223-chambered guns, which the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) lists in its "Unsafe Arms and Ammunition Combinations" there is no such blanket prohibition on using .308 factory ammunition in 7.62 x 51 mm rifles or visa versa"

They also state:

"Also, military 7.62 x 51 loads can be encountered that exceed SAAMI's .308 Win maximum pressure of 62,000 psi."
 
#19 ·
I have a 1916 Spanish Mauser, Civil Guardia Rifle, thats been Rechambered and is marked on the barrel. .308.
To be safe I hand load for mine, with a very mild charge of IMR 4895. My Handoads are lower pressure than the 7MM Mauser cartridge the Rifle was originally chambered for. I use good brass, and have had no problems other than the Rifle is funny about trying to chamber soft points. With my handloads I have had very nice accuracy to point of aim out to 130 yards.
 
#20 ·
Hi all, I know this subject has been discussed several times, but all I need is a yes or no.

Are surplus 7.62 NATO (non-commerical) loads safe to fire in these conversions? Are there any loads to watch out for?

Also are the loads by Prvi Partizan OK in these rifles?

Lastly, what's your opinion on rifles converted done by Gov't arsenals, good, bad or what?

Thanks so much!!!!

Greg



Just stay away from anything made before 1920.

Thank you,

j


That was beautiful.
 
#21 ·
I feel that the Tula .308 is safe in your Rifle, as the chamber pressure for that round is published at 42.700 PSI. Be sure that your Headspace is acceptable because steel dosent stretch as well as brass.
I have fired this cartridge in my 1916 Spainish Mauser, and it produced mild recoil and good accuracy. It did however require that I hold low at 100 Yards. This Cartridge is dirty and lacqured, you will need to clean your rifle when you get done firing, and the first few patches will be black. Other than this Cartridge or a Managed Recoil Cartridge, I would stick to handloading. I would not recomend using standard loaded amunition in this Rifle though its just too big of a risk.
 
#22 ·
so what gun dioes he have ??
you have nade a statement about what is safe in HIS RIFLE, and he has not told us what RIFLE it is;;;;;
you are good....
mike in co
I feel that the Tula .308 is safe in your Rifle, as the chamber pressure for that round is published at 42.700 PSI. Be sure that your Headspace is acceptable because steel dosent stretch as well as brass.
I have fired this cartridge in my 1916 Spainish Mauser, and it produced mild recoil and good accuracy. It did however require that I hold low at 100 Yards. This Cartridge is dirty and lacqured, you will need to clean your rifle when you get done firing, and the first few patches will be black. Other than this Cartridge or a Managed Recoil Cartridge, I would stick to handloading. I would not recomend using standard loaded amunition in this Rifle though its just too big of a risk.
 
#23 ·
I'm a novice at this,but the early Spanish mausers were small ring originally chambered in 7mm.The conversions were made in anticipation of the use of 7.62 cetme which,from what I've read,is equivilent in power to the old 7mm loadings.Factory .308 loads are loaded well above these limits.Why would you chance a disaster by using the higher powered loads?:?
 
#24 · (Edited)
Doc, I think you missed that the Steyr 1912 Long Rifles used the sleeve method for the rebore and rechamber. The only ones I know of with the US barrels are Short Rifles marked 1912-61.
 
#27 ·
My Mauser sporter was built on a Spanish M43 action, which is a 98 Mauser action. This was fitted with a US commercial barrel chambered in .308 Win...work was done by a good smith in the 1960's, as evidenced by the quality of the work. The bolt was bent for low mount scope, and the bolt shaft jeweled. Action is beautifully re-blued, bolt is white. I installed a Timney Sportsman trigger and an old US made Redfield 2 x 7 scope on steel mounts. I also put the rifle in a new plastic stock, keeping the Bishop walnut stock aside.

The rifle is very accurate and smooth,and the sporter cost me about $250.

I have owned several South American Mauser conversions based on earlier Mauser actions, and they made me nervous, although one that used a surplus O3A3 springfield barrel chambered for 7.62 x 51 seemed to be very solid and a good rifle overall. Can't remember who made those, but it is long gone.

mark
 
#47 ·
I also have what I think is a Spanish 43 with a large ring 98 Mauser action. It was rebarreled to 308 at some point before I got it. Been shooting it for about 20 years - no problem at all. Not hot loads, and when I reloaded I used Lake City 7.62 brass. I agree about the earlier models. I am sort of fond of the gas shield on the 98 myself.
 
#33 ·
The guy simply doesn't know what he is asking. He wants a yes or no answer to I guess what he thinks is a simple question as if Spanish/S-A Mauser conversions are all the same and indeed all Mausers are the same.

With many of these conversions the answer is simple....

Do you feel lucky?
 
#34 ·
another generalization to a open ended question...waste of bandwidth.
again, until the original poster tells us specifically what rifle he is inquiring about...nearly all else is conjecture and bs....wait fior his input....
mike in co
The guy simply doesn't know what he is asking. He wants a yes or no answer to I guess what he thinks is a simple question as if Spanish/S-A Mauser conversions are all the same and indeed all Mausers are the same.

With many of these conversions the answer is simple....

Do you feel lucky?
 
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