K98 SS Totenkopf

[Juggernaut]

Are there any pics of K98 Rifles with SS Runes and Totenkopf or do they only come with the single S Rune as I have never seen an SS Rune on a K98?
Thank you.

[unbekannt]

http://juliaauctions.net/auctions/ca...33132&sale=233

[Juggernaut]

Very interesting, have seen those somewhere before especially on the scope, just havent ever seen any SS Runes or Totenkopf on the receiver of the K98 however, maybe they only had the single S Rune?

[sn1945]

The SS runes on the scope I would bet is fake.

[Sarge]

Except for the bnz single rune rifles (which are accepted by many/most as SS - may or may not be, NO doccumentation) there are no SS markings on a K98k receiver, they're all on the bbl. You'll find the skull with & w/o runes and the SS(runes)ZZA4 under an eagle.
Most of these are reworks and come from certain time periods ID'd by the type of marking.
Sarge

[Juggernaut]

Any pics of the SS Runes on the bbl, and Totenkopf and Runes and Single S Runes?

[eddie d]

Here are some on scope an bbl.

[Juggernaut]

Can you enlarge the pictures as the markings are too small to make anything out of them?

Were BNZ codes the only codes that had single runes or were there other codes with single runes such as BYF that had single runes also?

[sn1945]

That's the first time I've seen SS markings on a K98 scope. Haven't seen that in any reference book or online pics until now. I'm sure the other more knowledgeable members on here will chime in as to the authenticity of such markings.

From what I know next to the US dollar...SS marked items are the next most counterfeited items. So always beware of SS marked stuff. Even the single rune K98s are also commonly counterfeited.

[rickyracer2]

Be very weary of ss marked stuff!

[Juggernaut]

Were BNZ codes the only codes that had single runes or were there other codes with single runes such as BYF that had single runes also?

[standard modell]

the sieg{victory) rune was the emblem of the Hitler Youth.

[kroh]

Note that nearly all of these were originally Gewehr 98 rifles that had been shortened and had the markings on the top of the receiver scrubbed.

[bones92]

Those are eery, Dennis. Neat rifles, but it's hard not to think about their use within einsatzgruppen units.

Thanks for posting.

[Juggernaut]

Were BNZ code K98 rifles the only rifles with a single S rune on the receiver?

[jmouk]

The "ss dienstglas" scope is a joke in my opinion. I have 40+ pairs of ww2 service glasses and an "ss dienstglas" "scope" would be a huge anomoly.There were a few.....ss optics found in Vilaba Roma if memory serves me. Then a matching ss rifle.
NOPE.

[CapnJohn]

Juggernaut,
Just look at the pictures Dennis shows, you'll notice that bnz rifles are just one of the group. Probably the largest numbers but there are others are seen.
duv, Spandau, etc.
see www.ycgg.org for a description of the various manufacturers

[Juggernaut]

Such thing as BYF single rune rifles for example?

[sn1945]

Such thing as BYF single rune rifles for example?

In all the examples I've seen (K98s I own, reference books, online pics, dealers etc) I've NEVER seen or heard of a legit BYF single rune K98. Actually even a faked BYF single rune I haven't seen yet.

Why? Do you have a single rune BYF? Or you thinking of buying one? I would be VERY VERY careful if you do.

[Juggernaut]

Just heard of some single rune K98's that someone had of various codes, but that weren't BNZ codes and used BYF as an example as it seems to be a fairly common K98 code, thought it didn't sound right though, but I wanted clarification to be sure as I hadn't seen any before and had just heard of them.
Thank you for all of the info everyone, much appreciated.
Will have to find me a nice BNZ single rune I guess, is there such thing as a BNZ single rune K98 sniper rifle?

[mauser202]

Dennis,
what do you sell those rifles for? Do you commonly get them in?
Thanks

[unbekannt]

http://juliaauctions.net/auctions/ca...33132&sale=233

Here is the description for the above picts:
Auction #357A
*SS ISSUED MAUSER 98K SNIPER RIFLE. SN 9105G. Nearly entirely matching with the exception of a replacement extractor which has no number on it. This 1939 SS sniper rifle, with first type short side rail, shows very complete and original with all condition matching with the exception of the scope that shows somewhat better than the rest of the rifle. German sniper rifles as a whole are very expensive and difficult to obtain, with the SS variety being much harder. This example is purported to be one of the better ones in existence according to those who have inspected it. CONDITION: Receiver retains approximately 75% to 80% of the blue with light scattered corrosion and a significantly worn logo. SN and proof marks are still quite present. Bbl assembly shows approximately 60% to 70% of the blue turning plum with the serial number as well as the Waffen SS markings (Deathshead SS2)and Waffenampt proofs. Some light blue touch up is present near the muzzle. Bbl bands show approximately 65% to 70% blue with scattered browning. Triggerguard assembly shows approximately 75% to 80% with the floorplate showing approximately 40% mixed with a grayish brown patina. Hardwood buttstock and handguard, with a deathshead on the pistol grip and the SN of the gun, show good with scattered with light to moderate scuffing present and the numbered flat style buttplate shows good. Short rail scope mount which is numbered to the gun shows 70% to 75% thinning blue with an HW within a Z on the top. SS marked Dienstglas scope shows approximately 90% to 92% rich blue with clear optics. Sling shows dry with some wear. The bore is slightly frosty with a sight protector/muzzle cap present. 4-33132 BK146 (6,000-12,000)
http://juliaauctions.net/auctions/23...talog_233.asp?

Given the description is this a fake?

[sn1945]

Here is the description for the above picts:
Auction #357A
*SS ISSUED MAUSER 98K SNIPER RIFLE. SN 9105G. Nearly entirely matching with the exception of a replacement extractor which has no number on it. This 1939 SS sniper rifle, with first type short side rail, shows very complete and original with all condition matching with the exception of the scope that shows somewhat better than the rest of the rifle. German sniper rifles as a whole are very expensive and difficult to obtain, with the SS variety being much harder. This example is purported to be one of the better ones in existence according to those who have inspected it. CONDITION: Receiver retains approximately 75% to 80% of the blue with light scattered corrosion and a significantly worn logo. SN and proof marks are still quite present. Bbl assembly shows approximately 60% to 70% of the blue turning plum with the serial number as well as the Waffen SS markings (Deathshead SS2)and Waffenampt proofs. Some light blue touch up is present near the muzzle. Bbl bands show approximately 65% to 70% blue with scattered browning. Triggerguard assembly shows approximately 75% to 80% with the floorplate showing approximately 40% mixed with a grayish brown patina. Hardwood buttstock and handguard, with a deathshead on the pistol grip and the SN of the gun, show good with scattered with light to moderate scuffing present and the numbered flat style buttplate shows good. Short rail scope mount which is numbered to the gun shows 70% to 75% thinning blue with an HW within a Z on the top. SS marked Dienstglas scope shows approximately 90% to 92% rich blue with clear optics. Sling shows dry with some wear. The bore is slightly frosty with a sight protector/muzzle cap present. 4-33132 BK146 (6,000-12,000)
http://juliaauctions.net/auctions/23...talog_233.asp?

Given the description is this a fake?

Let me put it this way...if it was original I'm sure ScottB would've purchased it a long time ago. :D :D

[kroh]

Dennis,
what do you sell those rifles for?

Anywhere from $1200-1500.

Do you commonly get them in?
Thanks

They are far from common, but we purchased the majority of the ones imported into the U.S. since 2002 and occasionally buy them back from customers we sold them to.

[Sarge]

Yes, there are SS marked binoculars. Markings are distinctive and it would be impossible to remark a regular pr of binos. I've held a pr of 7 x 50s. May have a photo around here somewhere, will look thru the pile. They are marked SS(runes) not W-SS(runes). There was damm little marked W-SS.

NO! There are NO legit single rune rifles other than bnz. I've heard of 42 & 45 dated ones, but would be extremely doubtful of their originality. All of the good ones are 43 & 44 and ALL of the good one are unlettered ser nrs!
In other words 4729 NOT 4729d.
I know next to nothing about K98k sniper rifle variants so other than to say I've never heard of a single rune sniper, no comments. Besides which, how would you know - if it had a turret mount scope on it - markings are covered up.
Here is a photo of my 2 bnz 43 single runes.
Sarge

[sn1945]

Note that nearly all of these were originally Gewehr 98 rifles that had been shortened and had the markings on the top of the receiver scrubbed.

Man I so want that SN 7074 Gew98 with the 3 Totenkopf skulls!! Mine only has 1 skull with the SS2 stamped on the top. Too bad I missed out on that one.

Yeah I noticed you haven't had any SS rifles recently. Drying up now?

[kroh]

Yeah I noticed you haven't had any SS rifles recently. Drying up now?

DRIED up would be a more accurate term, though I did just acquire a very interesting example with two Toten-Kopfs (one with SS2 above, the other with lazy-S (serpent) above) that we have not yet had the opportunity to photograph. It was a Gew98 receiver with commercial proofs on it (as it should have).

Most of the ones we obtain recently are quickly sold to those customers wise enough to utilize our exclusive WANT-LIST service at
http://www.empirearms.com/wantlist.htm

[Scott B]

Some brief info regarding the subject of SS marked rifles.

Period original (PO) deaths head marked rifles were assembled as rework/refurbs of Gew.98's, 98b's and K98k ('34-'41). Theoretically, receiver markings could be any date and manufacturer originally found on receivers of these types during this period.

PO single rune marked receivers can be found on new assembly BNZ marked rifles of the period '43-'44. They can also be found on Gew.98 rework/refurbs conducted during this same period. As discussed in the previous paragraph, Gew.98 dates and manufacturer are theoretically only limited by the boundaries of original production.

PO sszza4 marked 98 variations follow some of the same standards of single rune marked receivers discussed above. PO sszza2 marked variations are specific to SS-Double Claw snipers and as such are separate animals with some overlap. The operative term in both sszza4 and sszza2 variations being "some".

Distinct patterns have been identified within each of the aforementioned groups. There are also clear variations and/or sub-variations within each of these groups. As with all research projects the challenge has been to accumulate enough data from PO specimens so as to be relevant. The RC’s have offered some great opportunity to add data. No matter if PO or RC, distinguishing post war “SS enhanced” specimens is critical. Otherwise you wind up with ‘BBOTW’ series results where the majority of SS specimens and derived information are quite flawed.

[Scott B]

sn1945,

At one point I did my best to buy up all the period original SS specimens I could get my sweaty little hands on. These days I am more interested in adding unique variations as opposed to dups, trips, etc. I am no longer interested in having them all.

[jmouk]

I have a set of WW1 ss marked binoculars from Latvia that are correct.
I would love to see a set of LEGITIMATE ss dienstglas. I did not see one set in the 8 years that I monitored the Deutsche Optics web forum with advanced collectors from all over the globe. I did get an e-mail through back channels of Vilaba Roma binoculars with ss dienstglas markings. I doubt seriously that the "ss dienstglas" scope is legit and I have seen more than one "ss dienstglas" binocular that was rigged. If you will notice, the ss got a lot of the "left overs" from the Wehrmacht. One sees a lot more 98 Gewehr with death heads.

[Scott B]

Period original deaths head SS Dientsglas marked binoculars and scopes do exist. However, they are found on only one scope manufacturer (Ajack) and one binocular manufacturer (Ruka). These markings are manufacturer applied and thus appear to be specific to the SS contract.

[chud]

:DI see my duv 41 5190a bought from Dennis in beautiful color (gorgeous as Dennis would say) Here is another photo

[The Great Billdildoe]

Those are eery, Dennis. Neat rifles, but it's hard not to think about their use within einsatzgruppen units.

Thanks for posting.

Bones ; Rethink that. The Einsatzgruppen were primarily Polizie , and though while being under himmler's thumb were still 90% or better typical polizei mobilized and eventually used for that hideous task. These polizei were typically armed at the time with a myriad of Kar98a's , VZ24's , polisk K98 - Wz98 - Wz29 and gew98's modified with only the tangent sight. Few - if any of these gew98 SS rebuilds where in the hands of einsatzgruppen .

[denny gaither]

Some brief info regarding the subject of SS marked rifles.

Period original (PO) deaths head marked rifles were assembled as rework/refurbs of Gew.98's, 98b's and K98k ('34-'41). Theoretically, receiver markings could be any date and manufacturer originally found on receivers of these types during this period.

Here is an example.....

[Sarge]

Scott B
In addition to the commercial proofs, did the SS reworks have a caliber designation on the bbl - crown over 7.9m/m?
Sarge

[Scott B]

Denny,

Outstanding example!

[Scott B]

Sarge,

Marking standards on the barrel and/or shank followed patterns by variation.

[Squeezer]

totenkopf's were used by Prussia in WW1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf

so i wouldn't be surprised if some of the totenkopf marked k98 parts actually came from gewher 98's. didn't they share a lot of parts in common?

[Scott B]

Squeezer,

The TK/Dhd as used by Germany/German States has a history that long preceeds WWI. That said, the Dhd as applied to the subject rifles was applied during the Third Reich period and not before. This can be further established by such things as component production date and/or assembly date.

[mjmd]

sn1945,

At one point I did my best to buy up all the period original SS specimens I could get my sweaty little hands on. These days I am more interested in adding unique variations as opposed to dups, trips, etc. I am no longer interested in having them all.

good news for the rest of us!

[tov_Mauser]

How uncommon are SSZZA4 stamped "ar 41" ?

[Scott B]

The sszza4 marking could theoretically be applied to the bbl of any receiver/year combination produced well before or in reasonable proximity to the final SS assembly or rework date. So in most cases year and code are relatively meaningless in terms of collectability as an SS rifle. A rare year/code or variant G/K receiver marking such as '98b', 'K' date, BSW, 337-39, etc. may add some additional value in the eyes of the beholder. However, I have found that matching, complete, legit and condition trump all other comparable factors in the SS rifle world. Personally, I would find it interesting but unfortunate if a 98b were offered in SS rework config as I would much prefer a standard 98b.

[sn1945]

The sszza4 marking could theoretically be applied to the bbl of any receiver/year combination produced well before or in reasonable proximity to the final SS assembly or rework date. So in most cases year and code are relatively meaningless in terms of collectability as an SS rifle. A rare year/code or variant G/K receiver marking such as '98b', 'K' date, BSW, 337-39, etc. may add some additional value in the eyes of the beholder. However, I have found that matching, complete, legit and condition trump all other comparable factors in the SS rifle world. Personally, I would find it interesting but unfortunate if a 98b were offered in SS rework config as I would much prefer a standard 98b.

You do have a point there Scott about the legit matching pieces vs. SS marked (albeit) RC rifles. For me it would just be a coin toss which one to get as I'd love to have both kinds. I own 2 SS RC marked rifles and 3 legit all matching pieces. That's a 3:2 ratio and is close enough to 3:3. If I could find another SS variation I would get it. Too bad I missed out on Empire Arms' RC SS rifle a while back with 3 SS Totenkopf stamps on the barrel. No doubt If I'd seen that back then I would've grabbed it.

But yeah I understand your point.

[Scott B]

I am certainly not criticising the purchase of SS marked RC 98's. IMO - all RC's are in one category and period matching 98's are in another. Apples and oranges. Both choices have their advantages and dis-advantages.

[Scott B]

good news for the rest of us!

Yes - but except for Steyrs, I am still willing to trade any rifles from my standard K98k year/code collection ('39-'45) for period matching/correct SS G/K98 variations I don't have or are of particular interest. All of my rifles are period matching/correct and the only year/code I am lacking is 337-39. This includes many rare items like BSW-1939 ser. #1, AX/AR41, BCD4/DOU, etc. I can't imagine what it would take to extract some of these rifles but nothing is impossible given the right trade.

I have been considering posting something to this effect in the WTS/WTT section and will move forward with that post.