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  1. #1
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    Default Attention Yugoslav Model 1924b owners...

    In his treatment of the Mexican Mauser rifles converted to Model 1924b specs (page 115), Branko mentions that "When Yugoslavia capitulated early in the Second World War, the German Army seized all Model 24B Mausers and issued them to its forces as the 'Gew.291/2(j)." Although there are no reliable records for the number of Model 98 conversions done to Model 1924b specs, Branko estimated that 21,000 rifles were produced (page 135). He also reports two separate codings for the 'b' rifles captured by Germany, the Gew.291/2(j) for the converted Mexican rifles, and the Gew.293(j) designation for the converted German Gewehr 98 rifles (page 141). I do not own a copy of the well-known Kennblatter Fremden Gerats, and so I can't confirm the German-specified model designations.

    For all of you that own/have owned Model 1924b rifles, have any of them ever shown signs of WWII German use? Any stock wrist cartouches, or WWII cartouches on the right side of the butt stock? Renumbering of small parts, or use of WaA marked or Eagle/number marked parts? How about 'duffel cut' stocks, or capture papers corresponding to the rifle? I've never seen any like that, so I wonder if they were kept untouched in their converted 'b' form, mined for small parts, or have simply been lost to history.

    I also wonder how the Germans were able to determine a former Mexican Model 1912 rifle from a former Gewehr 98, short of removing the barreled action from the stock, which might very well have been done by them at the depot level, or at larger facilities for processing Beutewaffen, like Ingolstadt.

    Any observations to report by anyone?
    Thanks for your time-
    Pat
    No one ever got into Valhalla unarmed.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poot View Post
    I do not own a copy of the well-known Kennblatter Fremden Gerats, and so I can't confirm the German-specified model designations.

    I also wonder how the Germans were able to determine a former Mexican Model 1912 rifle from a former Gewehr 98, short of removing the barreled action from the stock.

    Pat
    Pat, The picture of the rifle listed as Gewehr 293 (j) in Kennblatter Fremden Gerats shows a full length GEW 98 and the barrel is listed as 740 mm long so this may be a translation issue in Branko. The sighting (Lange Vizier) is listed as 400 to 2000 meters as compared to the Gewehr 291/2 (j) where the picture shows a short rifle and gives barrel as 589 mm and sighting (tangent) of 200 to 2000 meters. So, I think the 293 (j) were simply left over GEW 98's in the Yugoslav inventory which the German visitors captured. My access to Kennblatter Fremden Gerats is through the appendix in Ball, 5th edition, p.420.

    Hope things are well out west. Larry

  3. #3
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    Thanks Larry- I agree with the translation issues in 'Serbian and Yugoslav Mauser Rifles.' There are many problems with bad translations as there are issues with very short treatment of topics requiring more. It's a bit lacking, but it's the best we have right now in English, and I'm no closer to learning Serbian than I've ever been...

    The designation issue you've noted might explain some of the problems there. There certainly were some Gewehr 98 rifles present when the Germans rolled in to Kragujevac. These were used for the 1924b rifles, and were also utilized by the Partisans after the plant's re-capture to make the 'Partizanka' rifles. From what I've seen, the only Yugoslav rifles that have German markings and/or modifications are 'standard' Model 1924 rifles. I own a M95M and a Type II Cavalry Carbine that were both 'duffel cut,' but neither has any German modifications or markings.

    Things are great out here, thanks for asking! I hope all's well with you and yours.
    Best,
    Pat
    No one ever got into Valhalla unarmed.

  4. #4
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    Dang Pat.. this threads a great illustration of how hard these are to come by..I'm sure other members have one but how many has any one person seen..None for me in hand and few at that for sale..I'm sure interested in your topic and am watching for any gems of info, but sure dont have anything I'm able to add..sniffle.. cuz.. I dont even have the bayonet yet Wahhhhhh : (

  5. #5
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    LOL!
    Part of the problem I'd suspect is that many of those 'B' rifles out there aren't recognized for what they truly are, and get passed up or buried in the back of a safe.
    Pat
    No one ever got into Valhalla unarmed.

  6. #6
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    Note too that the M1924b is described in two sections. They are also discussed under the Gew98 section. It seems they were being reworked at FOMU when the Nazis came. They looked over the installation, decided to concentrate efforts at Kragujevac and simply locked the gates and drove off. The Partizans naturally descended upon the place with delight. This is where they produced the Patizanka model mongrels. They also hauled off whatever they could before the German's came back, which they did blowing the place up. It is likely nobody will ever know the details of those rifles and parts counts.
    See pages 133, 135, & 140-148.
    "In times of trouble and of war, God and soldiers we adore;
    When wars are done and wrongs are righted, God's forgotten and the soldier slighted."
    Olde English proverb, origin unknown

    I do not play the computer "friend" game, thing. Please do not "friend" me. I will gladly answer PMs if you want contact with me.

  7. #7
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    Great thread. Iv'e gone over and over the pages of Branko's book about the 1924b rifles. I do have a 1924b but no German usage is apparent. However , I do have an Israeli k98k in 7.62 built on a Mexican 1912 receiver, beautiful crest intact. HOW it got to Israel and in what original configuration, I have no idea.
    Dang PoP's, when are you gonna get a hearing aid ?!?! My Sons

  8. #8
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    Thanks for contributing, Tater! Your Israeli rifle sounds very interesting.

    'Nug- That's one (among a few!) of the things that drives me nuts about the 1st edition. The 1924b section is so incoherent and chopped up, that the reader winds up going over the same material multiple times without the benefit of a logical, sequential flow of information. Hopefully that's something that can be rectified if/when a 2nd edition is ever done.

    I understand the historical sequence of alternating German/Partisan control of FOMU, but it's the characteristics of each pedigree of 'B' rifles that needs organizing. I'd also expect that if ALL of the captured 'B' rifles went to Germany (or at least German controlled depots in occupied countries) that there'd be at least a couple of known examples with apparent German modifications/indicators. However, we're currently stuck between the hammer of a very uncommon rifle type, and the anvil of finding those with legit signs of German usage.

    Revisiting what Lcmunn mentioned, the sections of the Kennblatter in Ball's 5th ed. that deal with captured Yugoslav rifles do indeed show the 293(j) as a Gewehr 98. The 291/2(j) is definitely a Model 1924b, and is indicated by the Germans in the guide as a 'M 24 B,' so we know for sure that they were distinguished as a separate rifle type (this isn't news) and had different characteristics from other Yugoslav types.

    Stay tuned for further details, I guess...! But don't hold your breath
    Pat
    No one ever got into Valhalla unarmed.

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