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for the vintage cmp sniper matches..what mods are allowed ?

3K views 43 replies 10 participants last post by  milprileb 
#1 ·
i tried looking at thier rules and got no where.
so assuming one had a 91/30 with a pu scope, what else would be allowed...
i assume i can re wwork the trigger to some lower number...3.5 ??
bed it ?
free float it ?/
what ???


my club runs vintage mil rifle matches...stock guns and add any 4x for the sniper match.

stock means no bedding...rework wood for free float/add pressure point/rework stock trigger. taller front sight for short range shooting.
 
#4 ·
I am seeing trigger tuning OK if at least 2.5 lbs. Bedding apparently a no no but I have read that mods that would have been period are OK, like barrel wrap and action shims. Hopefully someone who has had a tech exam will chime in. Funny that the PEM scope is not listed. The Japanese rifles apparently are shafted.
 
#5 ·
My understanding is that any modifications are required to be within the vein of original issue.... since metal shims and barrel wraps on Russian 91/30 PU's were issue - then it's OK.... Metal shims on US rifles were NOT issue... hence NOT allowed.... You probably could not wrap a barrel on a M39 SOV, though - as this was not done originally... but you probably could shim the stock with brass, aluminum, or wood shims..

The only "Bedding" that is allowed is careful fitting of the wood to the steel... as it was done back in the day.... No glass bedding or that sort of thing...

Thanks
 
#6 ·
This is kind of a sore subject with me. When the rules were first published, they read only that "No special bedding (glass bedding, etc)" was allowed. Having these same questions in mind, I asked specifically about it on the CMP forum, several times. Nobody would give me a straight answer. However, shortly afterwards, they added the language that no "other special accurizing" was permitted. I have not seen anything that says that shims/wraps would be allowed (even though they are FAR more "vintage" than a 1903 sniper built with a Kreiger barrel, which is allowed:rolleyes:). I'm sure it will be fine.....until a Mosin wins it. Then you can bet they would tear that gun apart and DQ it for anything that they could loosely translate to "other special accurzing". That's my biggest beef with this whole match. It's already becoming anything but "vintage" (but as long as it's an American gun, then that's okay):barf:.

John
 
#7 ·
Yup, offer a match and the guys that got to win will find every area they can slide on to lever up an advantage. JC Garand Match: match barrels, tight stocks, polished triggers, tune gas systems all are legal
and its hardly a vintage GI M1 Match.

However, Joop .. you and your brother go win that next match at Camp Perry with your PU snipers and lets see the outrage happen.
 
#8 ·
My guess is that you would not get anything resembling a "Sanctioned interpretation" off of a forum...

The way you get an answer (Either way) is to write a LETTER to the governing body and include any pertinent information (Including perhaps scans of Soviet manuals showing shims and barrel wraps)... They will make a decision and write you a letter in return....

Then - you take said copy of the Letter to the match with you and go shoot.... Then - you don't get DQ'd for shims in your stock or oiled felt wrapping on the barrel...

Thanks
 
#9 ·
That sounds like a good idea. I would try that John.

When I first heard of these matches I felt sure it would not be long before custom built match rifles with the best of parts yet looking like original rifles would be the norm. I think we know that many of these rifles used in the CMP matches are actually carefully built match rifles.
 
#10 ·
Mike: guys that went to Camp Perry saw such match rifles made to win. Its also not uncommon to see the teams use one rifle for 300 yds and one for 600 yds: both shooters shoot same rifle. That speeds time for their swap off and gives them a set up rifle for 300 and 600 yds and no time lost for fiddling with drum settings. Certainly another way Gamesmanship is applied to a sniper match in order to win but certainly not in the intent of such a match: the man and his sniper rifle tested at 300 and 600 yds.

When Devious 6 and I teamed up for the team events, we used our own rifles at 300 and 600 yds, We had a drill to roll into firing position and roll out so that we both got into firing positions , engaged targets and did not lose any time doing so. I thought it added a little rigor to the match and more fun but... if one is of the clan that has to get NRA points, pins, medals ,trophies and ego trinkets ... then doing everything to leverage advantages and scores becomes the focus. Being an old soldier, I prefer to shoot the match like a soldier: my rifle and what talent I bring to the firing position and take my lumps and scores. A win for me is shooting a credible score as I did on 300 yds and flogging myself for mistakes made at 600yds using my own rifle.

Gamesmanship , Ethics: you can make any match an abortion or make it mean something. Of course, one has to have a value system to distinguish what is right and wrong and what is BS.
 
#12 ·
I am fully behind Skip's comments. To me, the concept of a team match should require that each individual compete with his/her own weapon at each phase of the event. Unfortunately, it does seem that it becomes more of a feel ggod event than a real competition - a test of both individual and team skills.

I would love to participate in the CMP Games match - maybe I can convice Skip to team up so we could have two PU teams, at least, at the event.

And, I think we should petition CMP to change the team match rules to make the event more realistic. I'm sure that would be successful. Not.
 
#13 ·
actually i think mentioning that maybe a "one shooter, one rifle" simple rule would not be an issue.
i understand what you guys are saying, but at the same time i am in full support of playing inside the rules. i can do anything it does not say i cannot do.
as far as rebarreling...nothing says you cannot do it also.
the other side is that i picked my rifle based on its bbl..nothing else.
it would appear they expected match grade rilfes as hornady is producing match ammo for rilfes in this class.
mike in co
 
#14 ·
I think we're just talking at cross-concepts. I don't have an issue with people using the rules to their advantage. My problem, and I think Skip's although he will surely speak for himself, is that the rules as they are written allow for things that make it possible to "game" the event in a way that is unrealistic in a realistic environment. Certainly, shooting in a high-power service rifle competition has its own focus and intent. But, when one is shooting in a vintage sniper team competition it would seem more realistic to run it with rules that truly challenge the "team" aspect. Sharing a rifle for each distance does nothing to make the event challenging and just reeks of gamesmanship, IMHO.
 
#15 ·
My brother and I chose to each use "our own" rifles for both distances (I own both of them, but you get what I'm saying). The reason for doing so had nothing to do with sportsmanship, but everything to do with barrel heat, especially in the 100+ degree August sun. This doesn't leave you any time for screwing around in the five minute sighter period and you better have a good idea of what's going to get you on paper from the very beginning, especially at 600. If a team were to run one rifle at each distance, I would hate to be shooter number two, on shot number twenty-something, no matter what rifle I was using (but especially with a Mosin), as a twenty-plus round string that's close to "rapid fire" pace, is going to have an effect on most of them. So, I'm not sure how much of an advantage it would really be.

My .02

John
 
#21 ·
a twenty-plus round string that's close to "rapid fire" pace, is going to have an effect on most of them. So, I'm not sure how much of an advantage it would really be.
Yep.. .and that's why the shooter is still the #1 most important thing.... I would personally add in the fatigue... From laying on the ground, from getting up and down and up and down... from shooting many full house rounds with that steel butt plate.... 50 rounds out of my 91/30's leaves a nice big bruise on my shoulder...... Never mind knowing how your ammo is going to behave when it's sat out in the sun on a 100F day - and the ammo is hot in your hands before it even gets into the rifle....

I think if folks got out there and replicated the match conditions and took careful notes - they might find some sort of pattern to the stringing... If this was the case - you would at least have some idea that when shot 15 came along - you better hold 1 moa lower or some such... or know that you need to have ammo loaded up that's got reduced powder charges to make up for baking in the sun... (I have worked up such loads - as shooting "Normal" loads can be unsafe when the ammo is 120F)

My own personal experience with reloading for super hot days is that while many powders claim to be temperature insensitive... The chronograph tells another story... and powders that are supposedly very temperature insensitive react pretty similar to those who don't tout such characteristics....

Thanks
 
#16 ·
it seems like any shooting sport involveing firearms will evolve into a race to game the matches. from .22 to .50cal. here we had a .22 shooting match set up for hunting rifles and it was not long before we had rifles that you would never see in the field and the prizes were only boxes of food, the regular people stopped comming and the matches folded up.eastbank.
 
#18 ·
it was set up to use standard .22 hunting rifles, what we got a annies,winny,s and cz,s set up for target work. we never though people would game the matches for just boxes of food,i don,t think the boxes had more than 10.00 worth of food in them,no big prizes. eastbank.
 
#20 ·
my club shoots two rimfire matches for 22 rifle...sporter and target. 6x on sporter and unlimited x on target. bbl shape and scope are generally the defining characteristics.
i shoot 2 win 67's, one with a 24x, one with a 6x. my $16 rifle has shot against $600 plus target rifles..i got a solid second last time out.
like i said write the rules clearly.
mike in co
 
#19 ·
The #10 and #15 posts by milprieb and joop raise an interesting point about shared competition rifles. If you do not carefully test beforehand, you nearly always find two shooters hold the rifle differently enough to cause significant change in POI for both elevation and windage. The worst case was a shared match with my left handed friend where his .303 rifle shot (very consistently) about 4 feet right at 500 yards when I used it. Aiming at a tuft of grass left of the target with iron sights can be very tricky.

I have shared many iron sighted and scoped military rifles before and gave up for all but one member of my club. With his scoped rifle I shoot to the same 500 yard POI so we each shoot the others rifles as we own different classes of rifle. Test your friends rifle and you may be (unpleasantly) surprised.

I agree you will always end up with shooters making up specially blue printed competition rifles unless the rules split off original rifles from the new "clones" into separate classes to leave the playing field level. I just get out there and enjoy shooting the original rifles I have. It makes it more enjoyable for me to finish ahead of the special rifles with an original 1913 barrel in an M41B or that 1942 barrel in a No.4T. In 20 years an original rifle will be worth multiples of what theirs do.
 
#24 ·
That's what these are - just a hand made version of the old USMC shooting jacket. Shoulder pad, elbow pads and sling pad with 4 pockets. I bought the standard OD one. They are nicely made and sturdy. I can't stand wearing the leather shooting coats - wore one when I shot on the rifle team in college and never liked them.
 
#25 ·
truckjohn said:
I think if folks got out there and replicated the match conditions and took careful notes - they might find some sort of pattern to the stringing... If this was the case - you would at least have some idea that when shot 15 came along - you better hold 1 moa lower or some such...
This is exactly what I've done. Of course, it's more pronounced on some rifles than others (even from one Mosin to another). The '44 PU, which my brother shot, does not seem to be as sensitive to heat. The '39 PEM that I was running, however, is sensitive. However, it's also extremely predictable. It's about shot 17 that it will drop 1 MOA and then about 1/2 MOA for the next few shots. at 100 yards, this is not a big deal and hardly even noticed. At 600, however, you're talking about a 6 inch drop that happens from one shot to the next and that's assuming that you've got a perfect hold, you're not tired and shaky, the sweat is not in your eyes (all of this is very unlikely on the last few shots of the last leg of the match!).

John
 
#26 ·
Joop, I am not there yet to have a grip on shots 15 to 20 and where shots migrate to as the barrel heats up.
I need to do some practice and have that data on my range card so I can anticipate heat effecting accuracy. You make a valid point.

However, the solution to sweat, duress and fatigue as you rapidly fire and strain to do so accurately in match conditions of 20 second exposures at 600 yds is quite easy. Ramp the match to 10 second exposures at 600 yds and you ain't got time to focus on those distractions ! In fact , 10 seconds is more
likely to be a very generous target exposure in combat so we ought to be able to shoot that 10 second exposure at 600 yds with our PU snipers. I am sure I will be stoned at our club for recommending 10 second exposures and departing from the CMP 20 second times. However, I will push for it . Pushing the competition to 800 yds is also going to be recommended and the PU sniper will keep up at that range with all the other sniper systems if you do your part. Probably best to keep with the AARP slow 20 second target exposures at 800 yds till folks get the hang of shooting that distance. Then get out of the wheel chairs and go for 10 second exposures at 800 yds. The point here is not the PU sniper , its pushing you the shooter to optimally shoot the PU sniper to its potential. Fact: my rifle shoots at 1000 yds, its not going to be pushed by me but I sure got to push my self to shoot the system .
 
#27 ·
I would really love to find some sort of camera that can record shots on target at distance - so you don't have to go walk 1/4 mile down range and back... It was aggravating enough when I was working up ladder loads at 200 yards for my 7.62x39... Walk all the way down range.. Mark the bullet hole and note it on my sheet... Then back to the shooting position.... I spent about 3 minutes shooting and 2 hours walking.....

Good exercise, though...

This would help you out immensely on practicing for those sort of exercises... as it would let you shoot several batteries and see what's going on.... Not sure if it exists in a practical/inexpensive product....

Thanks
 
#28 ·
I would really love to find some sort of camera that can record shots on target at distance - so you don't have to go walk 1/4 mile down range and back...
Amen to that!

Usually, what I'll do when I practice at long range, especially 600 yards, is to put out a gallon water jug and get my zero on that. It's roughly the same size as the 10 ring (at 300, I use a clay pigeon). Then I'll fire five rounds, go to the target and check it, then fire the other five. When I win the lottery, I'm going to build a 1000 yard range with a target pit and hire pullers. :laugh:

John
 
#30 ·
I was sitting there thinking that a webcam and a cheap laptop would at least let you see what was going on... but the issue is it getting shot by mistake... but there's gotta be something out there that could work.... Maybe a remote security camera or a trail camera or something....

I checked around - and there are packages you can buy with a little remote video camera that broadcasts back to your laptop on the shooting bench - but they run right around a grand.... and there's no way I would bring it out to a public range without them being completely encased in 6" of solid high alloy steel...

I really don't need that - all I really need is something to trigger a digital camera from a couple hundred yards away.... so I could shoot and then pop a pic, shoot and pop another pic... Then - pull the card and look at the order of when the holes appear in the target....

I keep thinking that there's gotta be something that already does this sort of thing but doesn't cost a fortune....

Thanks
 
#38 ·
Sorry guys, I am not tracking here on this subject. Exactly what scope are you using and what does this target look like that you can see holes from 600 yds distance using this scope. I only know what I see being used here at Quantico ranges and that is a splatter target for 300 yds if you want to see holes from that distance and no spotting scope registered any holes in any target used out at 600 yd line. No one has a spotting scope that sees holes at 1000 yds. Nor a target that will show hits.
 
#39 ·
Remember that there's a whole lot less atmosphere in Colorado than in Virginia too.... Going out west in the mountains - I was absolutely amazed at how clear everything was and how far you could see....

The other thing he's talking about is contrast... The idea is to pick targets so your bullet holes show up black against a very light backer... An interesting experiment would be to try out a bright yellow bull... The only issue would be to actually be able to see it.... as yellow isn't exactly a good color for your eye to pick up.... Perhaps a yellow bull with a black ring around it would work fine....

Thanks
 
#40 ·
the ibs 1000 yd target has a blue 9/10/x ring...i can see holes. the rings are also blue and i often lose holes in those rings.

the scope is a celestron 22-67x 100mm it is about 300 from optics planet..shipped.
it has a lifetime guarantee..the tripod mount came loose on mine and they replaced the scope.
if you are shooting at a black bullseye it i sextremely difficult to spot holes.....
yellow is in the red range and is hard to see holes in if you do not have a "ed" glass scope..another $200 or so.
sun position has a lot to do with seeing holes in black.
mike in co
 
#42 ·
Celestron Ultima 100 Spotting Scope 100mm 45° Angle w/ 22-66x Zoom Eyepiece, 52252 $344.75(was 309 delivered when i biught mine some yrs back)

Celestron Regal 100 F-ED 100mm Spotting Scope 52303 759...this is the ed glass and if you have the money buy it.



if you look at various products in this family you will see a bunch that look the same.

i think they mainly come out of a single factory in china with more or less quality as spec'd by the seller, ..i think in the konus plant.
lots of names on scopes that look the same..the cost is in the specs and the quality inspections, the guarrantee.

else step up to the 2,000-3000 window...




mike in co
 
#43 ·
Yea, my fairly extensive research seemed to show that you need to hit about $2500 range to get a better scope than these Celestrons. That is why I bought mine. I tried mine again today and gave the lenses a good but careful cleaning. The inch plus submergence in WY fine powder dirt apparently did not do as much damage as I feared and expected. At 300 yds I could see holes not in the black but forget any in the black. I am gonna play with target colors a bit more and I often use blue to make the small 1 inch red center on the 12" square targets 3 inches at 300 yds and 5 inches at 600 yds. Any smaller and I just can not see them well enough with a PU scope. Think I need a lighter blue magic marker. Maybe green??

I did try it on the full moon. Wow. Best scope I have ever used on moon viewing, although I have not used any really good telescopes for moon viewing.

Again, I stress, this scope is heavy so a really solid tripod is essential. Another reason is that any wind hitting this big scope with an iffy Pod will shake enough to ruin your seeing the holes.
 
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