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Thread: Austrian Werndl M1873/77 rifles

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    Default Austrian Werndl M1873/77 rifles

    hallo,
    next of the rifle in my collection.

    Werndl M1873/77 Extra Corps Rifle

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    Werndl M1873/77 Infantry Rifle

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    Again thanks for posting these. It still surprises me that these two rifles have different size rounds.

    Are you in Russia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hairygreek View Post
    these two rifles have different size rounds.
    The Extra-Korps Gewehr is a stutzen, i.e. a carbine with a different location of the sling swivels. Hence the different size cartridges. Here are mine:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1867 Werndl Karabiner 8.jpg   1867 Werndl Karabiner 9.jpg   1867 Werndl Karabiner, 1867 Gewehr & 1873 Gewehr 3.jpg   Werndl-Karabiner Patrone 67-2.jpg   Werndl-Karabiner Patrone 67-1.jpg   Werndl-Karabiner Patrone 77-1.jpg  

    Werndl-Karabiner Patrone 77-2.jpg   Werndl Gewehr-Patrone 77-1.jpg   Werndl Gewehr-Patrone 77-2.jpg   Werndl Gewehr-Patrone 67-1.jpg   Werndl Gewehr-Patrone 67-2.jpg  
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by hairygreek View Post
    Are you in Russia?
    I am from Slovakia.

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    Hello Gents,

    Very nice collection of these most interesting firearms. There are a tremendous number of variations, particularly among the carbines. I don't have my library at hand at the moment or I could list all of the various versions.

    The hardest of the Werndl rifles to find, based on my own experience, is the M1873. I have only come across one example for sale that was the M1873/77. I have one original M1867 that was never chamber reamed for the M77 cartridge and eight different upgraded M1867/77s. Of the M1867s four are Jaeger models with the finger spur while the others four are regular infantry rifles without the finger spur.

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    I have seven carbines, the rarest of which is the M1873/77 Finanze-Gewehr which is one of 1184 produced for the Treasury Guards.

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    The next rarest of the carbines is this M1867 Cavalry Carbine that is still in it's original configuration.

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    The remainder of the carbines I currently have photos of are this example of the M1873/77 Extra Corp Gewehr.....

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    ...along with these two examples of the M1867/77 Extra Corp Gewehr.

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    While I have the appropriate mixture of bayonets for each of the rifles and carbines, the only current photos I have of the Werndl bayonet collection are below.

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    I have one M1867/77 that I shoot regularly and used to take a Whitetail deer with several years ago while hunting on a lease in Texas. At 90 yards it dropped the buck in his tracks.

    Warmest regards,

    JPS
    Last edited by JPS; 09-30-2012 at 05:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by collection View Post
    I am from Slovakia.
    One of the words somebody said sounded Russian... How are the gun laws in Slovakia by the way?

    Thanks JPS and Nick for the breakdown. I have a few questions: 1. Who are the Jaegers, and why does their rifle have the rear sight closer to the shooter and have the finger spur? 2. And why do some Werndls have a totally exposed hammer and some have the hammer behind the sideplate? Are these exposed hammers all converted muzzle loaders? 3. Are Werndls regularly unit marked on the buttplate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hairygreek View Post
    One of the words somebody said sounded Russian... How are the gun laws in Slovakia by the way?

    Thanks JPS and Nick for the breakdown. I have a few questions: 1. Who are the Jaegers, and why does their rifle have the rear sight closer to the shooter and have the finger spur? 2. And why do some Werndls have a totally exposed hammer and some have the hammer behind the sideplate? Are these exposed hammers all converted muzzle loaders? 3. Are Werndls regularly unit marked on the buttplate?

    Hello HG,

    I'll respond below following each of your questions.

    1. Who are the Jaegers, and why does their rifle have the rear sight closer to the shooter and have the finger spur?


    Jaeger translates as "Hunter" in English and in both the Austro-Hungarian and German Armies, regiments of riflemen who lived in the mountainous regions of both countries were enlisted as Jaegers. In most cases, the recruits were game wardens, professional hunting guides, market hunters, etc. in civilian life and were already accustomed to firearms and accomplished marksmen.

    Jaeger regiments frequently functioned as skirmishers prior to the advent of trench warfare. The different sights were theoretically intended to allow for more accurate rifle fire and the finger spur rest tends to provide a more comfortable grip for shooting, as is the case with modern stocks with pistol grips.

    Another reason for the differences was to set the Jaegers apart from regular line units based on their elite status. They were issued different uniforms, often in shades of green that were beneficial in their role as skirmishers when the rest of the army was still dressed pre-WWI blue uniforms.

    2. And why do some Werndls have a totally exposed hammer and some have the hammer behind the sideplate? Are these exposed hammers all converted muzzle loaders?


    The exposed lock-plates are found on the M1867 patterns weapons. The "internal hammer" is found on the M1873 patterns weapons. I've never researched their early history in enough detail to recall exactly why they abandoned the M67 lock-plate in favor of the M73 design. Perhaps someone else can answer that question?

    3. Are Werndls regularly unit marked on the buttplate?

    While I'm sure I have seen a lot more Werndl's than most, I certainly can't speak for 100% of the rifles and carbines that are out there. With that said, I personally have never seen a Werndl rifle or carbine that wasn't unit marked. Most of the surviving unit marks on the buttplate tang are Landwehr or Landsturm since the Werndl was relegated to the reserves long before 1914.

    Hope this info helps.

    Warmest regards,

    JPS

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    John made a pretty good summary. For more information on this very interesting system I highly recommend this book:





    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    great book indeed nick, however ive only seen it in vienna and 80 euro was too much for me to buy a book in a language i cant read haha.

    and great vids to the OP

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    Hi Nick,

    Yes, a great book! I picked up a copy when Karl-Heinz and Ivisited Joschi and Heino in Austria. Joschi was kind enough to autograph it forme. It's an excellent work and even though I don't speak or read German beyond"vo es der toiletten?" or "Svei bieren danka" or"Schnitzel bitte", with current translation sites online I have beenable to pluck out specific information when required.

    Joschi was also kind enough to give me a replacement tangscrew for one of my Werndls. I had purchased it at the old Great Western GunShow and stayed the night at my Mother's house. I took the rifle apart to cleanit and the original screw entered a black hole somehow!?!?!? We searched highand low and over the years since, the carpeting has been replaced, the couch reupholstered,etc. and it NEVER has reappeared? Damndest thing I've ever seen? Even more amazing was actually finding a replacement screw!

    A truly great book by THEE authority on the Werndl and justabout everything else Austro-Hungarian.

    Warmest regards,

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by hairygreek View Post
    One of the words somebody said sounded Russian... How are the gun laws in Slovakia by the way?
    Russian and Slovak language belong to the Slavic languages​​.

    Historic weapons made ​​by the end of 1890 are are free to sell a person over 18 years old.
    If the gun made ​​after 1890, one needs weapons license.

    be interested in the Czech language:
    http://www.primaplana.net/txt/varia/Werndl-zbytek.htm
    http://www.primaplana.net/txt/varia/Werndl-zbrane.htm


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    Do you know if there ever was a werndl trainer made?

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    Yes, there was a trainer that only fires caps; very rare. I can show pictures of it later. Then there were the sub-caliber devices that were used in the standard Werndl rifles to shoot Flobert type cartridges.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    and dont forget the bannerman werndl trainer with the wooden barrel

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    Quote Originally Posted by desdem12 View Post
    Do you know if there ever was a werndl trainer made?
    Here is the trainer (top one):
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Werndl EG & IG 1.jpg   EG 2.jpg   EG 4.jpg   EG 7.jpg   Werndl EG & IG 3.jpg  
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    nick, thats the same as the bannerman trainers ive seen. does this have a wooden midsection in hte barrel as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyten View Post
    ... bannerman trainers...
    Why do you keep calling them "Bannerman trainers"? This is an Austrian issue training rifle, Exerziergewehr M.1867. Bannerman guns are something he fudged with and this is not one of them:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Werndl Exerziergewehr 1.jpg   Werndl Exerziergewehr 2.jpg  
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Nick, I agree.. "Bannerman" is another way of saying mass "bubba".

    Love mine. The biggest challenge was working up the right loads.

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    up until this point i had been led to believe that bannerman had converted them!
    and all the specimens ive examined that were offered through bannerman had the mid section of the barrel made of wood.
    thats why im asking if the original Exerziergewehr M.1867 had the wooden midsection as well or if that was indeed a bannerman modification

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyten View Post
    . im asking if the original Exerziergewehr M.1867 had the wooden midsection..
    Yes, by design - see the scan I posted above; it describes the design of the training rifle. Bannerman had nothing to do with it other than selling them.

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    sorry, cant read german.
    and i wished i had known, i passed on one of these a couple years ago. guy told me it was converted back to percussion by bannerman and that it was dewatted by putting a wood barrel mid section.
    $150

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    I came into possession of what looks like a 67 carbine but the reciever and block look to be about 2/3 rds the size of a regular side hammer M-67 Werndl rifle plus it has a bayonet lug for a sword bayonet. It has, what seems to be original to the piece, an interesting rear sight unlike any I have seen on standard sized Werndls. It is missing the front sling swivel and the rod plus I'm not sure that the rear swivel is proper. Somebody had varnished it and when I cleaned the varnish of the metal I found various levels of case color on many of the components. The bore is nice but someone screwed up the chamber. It looks like someone was trying to rechamber it with a rat tail file or make it a 45-70 which it is too short for. As a looker it's a beauty but would need a trip to a barrel guy to be a shooter. I was wondering if it may be a commercial piece since the name stamped inside the lock is of a quality sporting gun maker from Austria. No markings show on the outside other than what may be the serial number "1" but there are a few inspector marks under the barrel and inside the lock there is the maker name, "J.Heinige" "Wien" followed by a number 1. I have seen the number 1 on hidden areas of a couple of the parts and on the top of barrel fwd of rear sight and on the bayonet lug and the breech block. I get the feeling that this is a low numbered piece.

    Thanks for any info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JP4 View Post
    the reciever and block look to be about 2/3 rds the size of a regular side hammer M-67 Werndl rifle.
    The carbines & the stutzens do have smaller locks, see comparison below:

    Pictures would help, there are several variants.

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Nick: I pointed JP4 over here from another forum since I though you might be the person to ask
    My own virtual museum, growing one entry at a time. Keep checking back!
    http://militarygunsofeurope.eu/

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