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Thread: Reloading Cast Bullets and IMR 4064

  1. #1

    Default Reloading Cast Bullets and IMR 4064

    Hello. I have a few questions: I am brand new to this forum and need some load data for shooting Lee Mould 175gr (.323) round nose cast bullets (with and without gas checks) using IMR 4064 powder and Unique in my 1945 model Turkish Mauser and in my M48 Yugo Mauser. I live WAY out in the middle of nowhere and just want safe loads to have fun with target shooing at the old quarry. Iíve heard varying opinions about using fillers. Some say NEVER use them, and some say Cream of Wheat works fine. I donít have easy access to powder and have to spend 4-6 hours drive time to buy it, so 4064 and Unique is what I have to work with. Any suggestions as to loads? Iíve seen data for the 175gr Speer spitzers. Would these loads be safe for my cast bullets?

    I've tried to be as specific as possible with my questions. On other forums, all I've been able to get is what someones preferred load and bullet is. Thanks! Any help would be appreciated.

  2. #2
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    I use 12-13gr of Unique with that bullet without any fillers. Shoots better than I can at 100 yards. I do have to use the 4-500 sight setting, though. I use this with gas checks. I suggest you save your 4064 for jacketed full power loads.

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    Before you screw yourself up, get a Lyman cast bullet manual. You may be able to get loads from it online. Do a google search on "8mm Mauser cast bullet loads".

    You will be able to use Unique for relatively low velocity loads with or w/o gas checks? (Watch for leading w/o gas checks) You will be able to use your 4064 for higher loads, likely not less than maybe 1800f/s?

    Again, get some real/pro. data. You can really do harm even with relatively lite loads. Case sealing and blow-back is an issue with lite loads. ALWAYS wear good shooting glasses as you WILL get a blast of gas in the face sooner or later. As with pistol shooting, double charges are an issue with Unique and other fast powders.

    Case bullets are fun but MUCH harder to do well. Standard jacketed bullets are rather straight forward. Expect much more work to do cast bullets well.

    Jack

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    Quote Originally Posted by srinde View Post
    I use 12-13gr of Unique with that bullet without any fillers. Shoots better than I can at 100 yards. I do have to use the 4-500 sight setting, though. I use this with gas checks. I suggest you save your 4064 for jacketed full power loads.
    +1. I recommend that one NEVER use fillers with a bottleneck cartridge. Long ago, I tried on several occasions (you think that I would have learned the first time) loading .30-06 and 6.5x55 with Cream of Wheat filler. The result was blown primers and bolts that you had to pound open.
    On the other hand, I have used plastic granular shotshell filler with the .45-70 with good results.

  5. #5
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    Start with 10g of Unique, work up to 12-13g, looking for accuracy. Most of mine seem to like 11-12g the best. No filler.
    I've used this load mainly with gas checked lead bullets, but lately have been experimenting with plain based. I haven't had any problems with leading so far, so try it out.
    As others have said-watch out for double charges. I drop a charge, then seat the bullet right away.
    Good luck!

  6. #6
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    Drop a charge, seat a bullet: very safe and the way I do it. I don't buy the use of Fillers and have found no reason to test use of them. I have excellent cast rifle bullet load accuracy using loads developed from Lyman cast bullet handbook.

    Now, you need to slug bore and use cast bullets .001 over bore size to gain accuracy , make sure
    cast bullets are sized properly and lubed properly . I recommend gas checks and use of Lyman book to
    develop Unique loads to meet your needs. The use of a "M" die will let you seat bullets without swaging them down and losing accuracy. Currently, I am using the same mold the OP mentions and sizing bullets .314 for one old WWII Lee Enfield No1MkIII rifle. I use gas checks and 15.5 gr Unique but I worked up to that and charges higher just shot worse although were under max in Lyman book. I get 1.5 inch groups at 100 yds off sand bags using the issue iron sights which are really tiny, hard on my old eyes. When I shoot prone unsupported, I can do under 2 inch groups all day long and my costs per shot is 9 cents as I cast my own bullets, make my own gas checks . Don't know how far this load will go accurately but I made it for 100 yd practice shooting and its cheap, effective and does not lead bore.


    I have a similar load for a M1 Garand that I put aside to shoot only cast bullets out of. This rifle has a .3085 bore and I size bullets to .3095, use 15 gr Unique, my gas checks and get 1 MOA easily at 100 yds and when I slack off, I get 1.5 MOA . Cost is same. Anyhow to the OP: slug bore, size bullets right and work up the Unique load. Alloy ? I use 50 50 lino type to wheel weights or 80%wheel wts to 20% range lead (smelted and cleaned up). I use the Free Chex gas check making tool and I make checks 10 for a penny vs 3 cents each from Hornady or 4 cents each from Lyman. Note: loads mentioned are info only, I don't recommend any load to anyone: use book and work up your own.

  7. #7
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    check ebay etc for some old reloading manuals,
    I have a couple Lyman/Ideal, and speer manuals from the 50's

    the lyman/ideal have some reduced caliber loads listed, unique is one of the powders,

    I use 2400 in 30.06 w/o issue, great accurate short range load in a couple of 03's I have, no filler,

    there is some good info over on castboolits as well

    have fun, but be carefull,
    what's so funny about peace love and understanding?

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    start way low. pushing lead too fast creates problems. You might consider paper patching, that will let you make close to full power ammo and, while tedious, is inexpensive and not all that complex. I agree, fillers are to be avoided if at all possible.

    Or just enjoy the lead with a light load. I find these sorts of guns to be a lot of fun with a reduced load so I can blast out 50 rounds or so without the sore shoulder. In general (verify for yourself) 50% loads do pretty well at 100, 200 yards or so --- it does not take a 150 grain slug moving at 3k fps to make a hole in cardboard at 100 yards!

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    The OP has opened up the discussion on making rifle ammo with Unique and cast bullets. Most such threads dwell on 50 yd plinking ammo. I would like to make a point: my Unique 15 and 15.5 gr loads pushing 175 gr gas checked cast bullets are seriously accurate target loads at 100 yds. Even if you bought your gas checks , the cost would be 12 cents a shot. This subject of using pistol powders and cast bullets is not always about plinking ammo being made cheap. My loads are as accurate as FMJ bullets and full up rifle power charges at 100 yds. I just don't suffer the recoil and expense and I practice more !

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    Quote Originally Posted by milprileb View Post
    The OP has opened up the discussion on making rifle ammo with Unique and cast bullets. Most such threads dwell on 50 yd plinking ammo. I would like to make a point: my Unique 15 and 15.5 gr loads pushing 175 gr gas checked cast bullets are seriously accurate target loads at 100 yds. Even if you bought your gas checks , the cost would be 12 cents a shot. This subject of using pistol powders and cast bullets is not always about plinking ammo being made cheap. My loads are as accurate as FMJ bullets and full up rifle power charges at 100 yds. I just don't suffer the recoil and expense and I practice more !
    the loads I use are at 100, and were given to me by and older (RIP) highpower shooter,

    very accurate at 100, not so much further out,

    he called them bumblebee loads, I have used them with cast, and 168SMK's
    both were accurate
    what's so funny about peace love and understanding?

  11. #11
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    Something else enters into the focus of such loads. Often you have a rifle that has seen its best days of shooting and can extend its shooting life . My WWI Enfield is a case. Another is my Service grade Garand
    which is a mix master of GI parts and a barrel with as MW of 3 and TE of 3. Its days are long gone for distance shooting but I can shoot cast in it at 100 yds and practice off hand and prone with no wear or tear on the rifle. With sizing the bullets to be ideal for its .3085 bore, I regain the rifles accuracy (at least to 100 yds) and can use it indefinitely as a trainer rifle. Barrel will never get worse and I will get decades of shooting out of the rifle. Granted, on a semi auto like the M1, these loads won't operate the action and you manually rack the oprod back ... but so what. I am practicing marksmanship skills, not doing rapid fire drills with this rifle. Last week, I spent several hrs of serious off hand practice and shot 40 rounds.... cost me $3.20 for ammo and I got a ton of great skill refresher training (and satisfaction) out of it.

    You are on or you are off. This ammo will print almost same as LC Match at 100 yds and the ammo won't make you a better shot but if you are on ...doing the basics... shooting cast will get you so you are shooting better when the time comes to pull up your other Garand and shoot FMJ target match ammo.

    For the doubting Thomas crew: NO, I do not have any leading whatsoever in the Garand nor Enfield.

  12. #12
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    with Unique without a GC I would recommend 7-10 grs ,With a GC 10-16 grs.9 (no filler or wad needed or wanted)

    With the 4064 your gonna have to use a GC start at 28grs. work up in half grs steps till accuracy falls off. I would also highly recommend using a pinch of dacron (the fluffy stuff inside of pillows or stuffed animals) This is NOT a filler it is simply a powder wad to hold the powder to the rear of the case its very fluffy and will not raise pressures as fillers in the true sense of the word (ie: COW ect.) will . You dont need much dacron just grab a pinch about the size of the end of your thumb ,push down in the case over top of the powder but leave it loose and fluffed to the base of the neck and seat your bullet as normal. Slug the breach end of your barrel about a inch in is all you need to go as that area is what matters most.as normal size a thou. or two over your slug. Hopefully your bullet will drop from the mould big enough. Good luck and let us know how things work out for you.

    Also are those the only two powders you have or just what you feel are god for cast? If you have some others let us know There are alot of powders that can be used successfully.

    Tim
    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

    LETS GO PENS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

  13. #13

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    Thank you all very much for the advice. I'll invest in the Lyman Cast Bullet handbook and coupled with your advice, all should be well. I'm not really casting and loading for great accuracy. Just something to have a bit of fun with this winter. Unique and IMR are all I have to work with, so that will have to do for now. If I do ever get back into the city, there's no telling what the gun shop will have in stock. I can order online, but with very limited funds, the extra fee for hazardous shipping kills me when I have a hard enough time sparing the cost of a pound of powder out of the budget. Thanks again. This is great!
    Dave

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    When and if you go powder shopping a few very good powders for cast are 2400, 4227,4895, IMR SR4759, and Red Dot Any of those will do nicely with cast bullets in youre 8mm.
    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

    LETS GO PENS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    I've used dacron fillers for quite awhile with no problems. Depends on how position sensitive the powder is. Some loads and cartridges just do better with fillers. You may also find that the lee bullet is undersized for your mausers. Lee makes a special order mold, available from midsouth shooters supply for worn throats. The "karabiner" is for somewhat worn throats and the "maximum" for is for heavily worn throats. Dan
    Need help fixing a coleman camping appliance? Maybe I can help!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Schuttig View Post
    I've used dacron fillers for quite awhile with no problems. Depends on how position sensitive the powder is. Some loads and cartridges just do better with fillers. You may also find that the lee bullet is undersized for your mausers. Lee makes a special order mold, available from midsouth shooters supply for worn throats. The "karabiner" is for somewhat worn throats and the "maximum" for is for heavily worn throats. Dan
    Dan you are using a wad. Fillers and wads are different and react different in a bottle necked case.
    I have found most Lee molds drop a little large. My Lee C324-175-R usually drops bullets at .325/.326 with #2 alloy or Linotype. Some alloys have more, or less, shrinkage. Pure lead or wheelweights may drop smaller.
    All my Lee molds seem to drop bullets that are .001 or more over the given size of the mold. But there are a lot of varaints when casting .
    If a man has nothing greater to believe in than himself, he is a very lonely man.

    I reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.

    And in that time when men decide and feel safe to call the war insane, take one moment to embrace those gentle heroes you left behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by MEJ1990TM View Post
    Well, all right. Maybe just this once.

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    So... Midsouth sells Lee molds that are not the standard menu of sizes of bullets dropped in standard Lee molds? This is the second time I have heard that. Will have to go to Midsouth and take stock of what they got.

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    I've never heard of that analogy before. Generally it is always refered to as "dacron filler"

    The "as cast" diameter isn't the total issue with somewhat worn old military barrels. It's worn out old throats. It is really hard to get good accuracy out of any cast bullet that isn't close to snug with the throat. The "karabiner" and "maximum" are designed to fix this problem, something standard design cast bullets fail to do. Dan
    Need help fixing a coleman camping appliance? Maybe I can help!

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    Quote Originally Posted by milprileb View Post
    So... Midsouth sells Lee molds that are not the standard menu of sizes of bullets dropped in standard Lee molds? This is the second time I have heard that. Will have to go to Midsouth and take stock of what they got.
    milprileb I purchased my Lee molds from Midway. It's not the company that sells them. It is the manufacture of the molds. I would be surprised to hear of anyone that owns Lee molds and not have bullets that drop larger than the given size of the mold. There are a lot of variants when casting. Alloy (and I am not sure what alloy Lee uses to base their molds on), mold temp, alloy temp, how long before you cut the sprue and drop the bullet out of the mold.
    I will double check today just to make sure. I will use the same alloy in each mold (#2) with the same temps for the .358, .309, .452 and .324 and see how they drop. And I will try as close as possible to use the same time and conditions as possible. So far I see them dropping larger. I'll get back later tonight or early tomorrow morning with the results.
    I don't mind a cast bullet dropping a little larger. Better fit to bore.
    If a man has nothing greater to believe in than himself, he is a very lonely man.

    I reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.

    And in that time when men decide and feel safe to call the war insane, take one moment to embrace those gentle heroes you left behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by MEJ1990TM View Post
    Well, all right. Maybe just this once.

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    Set up my furnace with #2 alloy last night. Heated my molds, (all Lee) on the hotplate. When temp of the alloy got solid at 765 degrees I started casting a few. 6 of each, except the .324 which is a single cavity (5). Let them all air cool until cool to handle.
    The .309, .324 and .452 molds all dropped .001/.002 over given mold size. The .358 dropped some at .362.
    I've never tried pure lead with them. Maybe more shrinkage would occur.
    If a man has nothing greater to believe in than himself, he is a very lonely man.

    I reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.

    And in that time when men decide and feel safe to call the war insane, take one moment to embrace those gentle heroes you left behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by MEJ1990TM View Post
    Well, all right. Maybe just this once.

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    The lyman cast bullet handbook has a chart (3rd edition pp. 58 Don't see it on quick glance in the fourth edition ) that shows what you can expect in weight changes and shrinkage amount when changing alloy. If they did delete it from the fourth that would be unfortunate. Dan
    Need help fixing a coleman camping appliance? Maybe I can help!

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    The chart shows a mold that drops a 30 cal bullet at .3105 with #2 alloy will drop to .3095 with pure lead. The change in diameter gets more drastic with larger bullets. The change in weight for a 30 cal bullet that drops with #2 at 168grs would be an increase to 176 grs with pure lead.
    Need help fixing a coleman camping appliance? Maybe I can help!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Schuttig View Post
    The chart shows a mold that drops a 30 cal bullet at .3105 with #2 alloy will drop to .3095 with pure lead. The change in diameter gets more drastic with larger bullets. The change in weight for a 30 cal bullet that drops with #2 at 168grs would be an increase to 176 grs with pure lead.
    Dan I also have the Third Edition.
    Lyman bases all their info for molds on #2 alloy. (Unless they have changed recently). Which has a lower lead content than pure lead or wheelweights. So using pure lead, or wheelweights, which both have a higher lead content than #2, would give a heavier gr weight bullet in the same mold, with more shrinkage.
    And bullets cast with straight Linotype weigh even less than either, are much harder and have less shrinkage.
    It would be a damn shame if they delete that chart out of their fourth edition manual. Also the chart on page 57 that list the composition and hardness of common bullet metals.
    It's a great handbook for casters.
    If a man has nothing greater to believe in than himself, he is a very lonely man.

    I reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.

    And in that time when men decide and feel safe to call the war insane, take one moment to embrace those gentle heroes you left behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by MEJ1990TM View Post
    Well, all right. Maybe just this once.

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