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  1. #1
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    Default Vz 23/24? Help identifying stamps

    About a year ago I picked up a Czech Mauser at a gun show, I have done some research to try to identify what I have but I need the experts here to help me identify what the stamps are on this rifle.

    I initially thought this was a Vz 23 since it is stamped on the left hand ring "E Lion 23", but when I measured it, it has the length of a Vz 24.

    This leads me to believe this may be some kind of transitional Vz 24 with some Vz 23 parts. Since this is a possible Vz 24 I began to look for Nazi stampings on this. It took me a while but I found some very small stampings that kind of look like the Nazi eagle with the number 26 or 28 on both sides of the butt stock disk and the right side of the rear sight slide adjuster. There is also another stamping on the barrel just forward of the rear sight that I cant tell if it is a Czech lion or swastika.

    I hope the pictures are clear enough for someone to confirm theses stampings and I appreciate any background or historical information anyone may have on this rifle.

    Thank you.








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    The waffenamt on the bolt disassembly disk (and the presence of the disk itself) indicates German use. E(lion)23 suggests VZ23. Your receiver serial number could confirm it. VZ23 and VZ24 barrels are the same length. If a VZ23, your front sight should be grooved on each side for a sight hood and the numbers on the rear sight should be more fancy than on a VZ24 (after about 1925).

    Regards,
    Bill

  3. #3
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    Thank you for the confirmation and information.

    Mine does have front sight grooves for a hood, serial number H7372, and rear sight increments 1-20.

    I was not aware that Vz 23s were also used by the Germans, was there any difference between how the Vz 23 and Vz 24s were distributed within the German Army?

    Thanks again! I am glad you could confirm this rifle has so much history behind it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by homerj109 View Post
    Thank you for the confirmation and information.

    Mine does have front sight grooves for a hood, serial number H7372, and rear sight increments 1-20.

    I was not aware that Vz 23s were also used by the Germans, was there any difference between how the Vz 23 and Vz 24s were distributed within the German Army?

    Thanks again! I am glad you could confirm this rifle has so much history behind it.
    An H prefix is beyond question a VZ23 receiver, and an early one at that. I can't tell from your photos if it has been placed in a VZ24 stock or if it still retains its original VZ23 stock and fittings.

    The Germans took virtually all of the VZ23 and VZ24 rifles in use by the Czech. army for their own use. Unused VZ24 rifles in storage (or at least many of them) were sold to Romania. I have no information on how they were distributed in the German army. Mixing them would cause little difficulty.

    The major difference between the VZ23 and VZ24 is the stock and fittings (and receiver crest). Some of the VZ23 rifles found today are in VZ24 stocks and may not be recognized to be VZ23 actions. I'm now waiting on delivery of a VZ23 like that from Gunbroker. It was advertised as a VZ24. I have an empty VZ23 stock #J3706 and bolt #H566 waiting for it.

    Regards,
    Bill

  5. #5
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    The VZ-23 has no side swivel at stock grip but rather a bottom rear swivel which moves slightly to the left to line the sling with the front side swivel. The distance between front edge of rear band and rear edge of front band is 2-3/4". The VZ-24 has a noticeable longer distance. These are the fastest ways to ID a 23 stock! As your rifle has a bolt disk installed in butt stock I will venture to say it is in a VZ-24 stock. A full length photo will tell all!
    The VZ-23's were used for Police forces under the Germans, it has been reported.
    The WaA number 26 inspector was at Berlin-Lubecker in 36-38. In 38 he moved to Mauser, Berlin and was there thru 1944. There was no number 28.
    The 100 meter sight is unusual, I have only seen these on Lithuanian FN's.
    Last edited by lornedavis; 11-06-2012 at 02:41 PM.

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    Here are pictures as requested of the stock, to my untrained eye it looks to be a Vz23.



    Also, can anyone confirm if the sights are original Vz 23 or something else? There is a small what appears to be a lion stamp on the side of the sight
    adjuster.


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    Curious. You have a German modified VZ23 stock (good!) but the rear sight is not correct for a VZ23. Offhand, I can't think of any ZB made sights that started at 100 except for the Persian sights, and they were all marked in Farsi except for some of the M1949 sights made in Iran.

    The original VZ23 and very early VZ24 sight had a different font for the numbers, more "curly". And it started at 300. If there are any small markings on your rear sight, that might be a clue.

    Regards,
    Bill

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    The 3rd picture in my first post shows a waffenampt (26) stamp, which is the only marking I see. Could this be a K98 sight?

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    It is a K98k sight. Not too bad, since we know the VZ23 was German used anyway.

    I have been looking for an affordable VZ23. About a year ago I bought an empty VZ23 stock that became available, hoping to find a VZ23 in a VZ24 stock. It took me a year but I found one on Gunbroker and am now waiting for delivery.

    Regards,
    Bill

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    The sights looks like german, note the WaA stamp there the slide part.

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    Aw, of course the sight leaf only was changed, I was thinking the whole sight (maybe I was not 'thinking' at all?). Wonder if the ramp was also changed? Unusual for the disk in a VZ-23 stock, I think! Check stock on butt for a stamp-- LK5.

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    There is a circle z stamp on the metal butt plate of the stock and what appears to be a 72, this stamp is hard to make out but there is a more clearly stamped 72 on the upper barrel band (circle z on the other side of it).

    I picked this up at a gun show for $160, how did I do? I love how historic this rifle is, right now this is the centerpiece of my collection and I would never sell it, but I am curious of its value and how collectible it is. All of the parts are mostly matching with the receiver and magazine plate having the same serial number but the safety and the ring in front of the safety are stamped with a 83 and the charging handle base is stamped with a 583 above what looks like a cursive "L". The narrow ring in front of the safety also has some stamps I can't make out it looks like maybe a waffenampt eagle next to the original lion.

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    I also just noticed an "A" stamped into the wood on the underside of the grip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by homerj109 View Post
    There is a circle z stamp on the metal butt plate of the stock and what appears to be a 72, this stamp is hard to make out but there is a more clearly stamped 72 on the upper barrel band (circle z on the other side of it).

    I picked this up at a gun show for $160, how did I do? I love how historic this rifle is, right now this is the centerpiece of my collection and I would never sell it, but I am curious of its value and how collectible it is. All of the parts are mostly matching with the receiver and magazine plate having the same serial number but the safety and the ring in front of the safety are stamped with a 83 and the charging handle base is stamped with a 583 above what looks like a cursive "L". The narrow ring in front of the safety also has some stamps I can't make out it looks like maybe a waffenampt eagle next to the original lion.
    Need photos. VZ23 rifles were made with numerous parts serial numbered. VZ24 rifles had only the barrel, receiver, bolt, and stock numbered. $160 for a VZ23 is a steal. It sounds like your bolt might be German.

    Regards,
    Bill

  15. #15
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    Here are a couple of picture of the bolt. This one is of the underside of the bolt:



    These stamps are on the ring of the bolt just below the charging handle.


  16. #16
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    The bolt is from an Imperial German G98 long rifle.

    Regards,
    Bill

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    Do you know if this was standard procedure within the German arms industry in regards to replacing the bolts on captured Czech Mausers?

    What does this do to the rifle in terms of the value and how collectible the rifle is?

  18. #18
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    The Czech. bolt would normally stay with the same serial number Czech. rifle. The German bolt could have been put in the rifle by anyone at any time. Naturally the value of the rifle is less than if it had a correct mismatched Czech. bolt and still less than if it had a matching bolt.

    As for value, I just paid $263 plus shipping for a VZ23 from Gunbroker and thought that was cheap. It is in a VZ24 stock and was advertised as a VZ24. I don't even know what kind of bolt it has, but I have an empty VZ23 stock and a VZ23 bolt waiting for it.

    Regards,
    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    The Czech. bolt would normally stay with the same serial number Czech. rifle. The German bolt could have been put in the rifle by anyone at any time. Naturally the value of the rifle is less than if it had a correct mismatched Czech. bolt and still less than if it had a matching bolt.

    As for value, I just paid $263 plus shipping for a VZ23 from Gunbroker and thought that was cheap. It is in a VZ24 stock and was advertised as a VZ24. I don't even know what kind of bolt it has, but I have an empty VZ23 stock and a VZ23 bolt waiting for it.

    Regards,
    Bill
    Just found this very interesting thread, now that I have retired I am just finding the time to explore mausers beyond the K98k category. I have two of the late VZ 23 rifles, both have mismatched, but Czech, bolts in them. How do I tell a VZ 23 bolt from a VZ 24 bolt? I have several Czech bolts in the parts box. May have one and not know it..

    thanks, runner

  20. #20
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    Bolts can be identified by serial number prefix:
    A-H VZ23
    I-M VZ23A
    N and later VZ24

    The VZ23A rifles differ from the VZ23 rifles by having a removable rear sight bed (to accomidate changes in cartridges) and discontinuing the numbering of parts except for the receiver, barrel, bolt, and stock.

    I just found a 1924 dated E (lion) 24 VZ24 bayonet on Ebay to go with my 1924 VZ23A short rifle. I think someone used it as a pry bar because it is bent and will not mount on the bayonet lug. I'm currently filing inside the grooves in the pommel to fix it. This is not the first time - it will fit when I get it done. It is German modified with a removed muzzle ring; the rifle has a replaced Czech. 1938 barrel with a German firing proof.

    Czech. bayonets can be confusing. The following are correct for Czech. army used rifles:

    VZ98/22 long rifle = VZ23 Short bayonet (250mm blade)
    VZ23 short rifle = VZ23 Long bayonet (400mm blade)
    VZ23A and VZ24 short rifles = VZ24 bayonets (300mm blade)

    The blade edge is up on all the above. The blade edge is down on Persian VZ98/29 and a few export VZ23 Long and VZ24 bayonets.

    Zbrojovka Brno (ZB) copied the bayonet design from the Romanian Mannlicher M1893 bayonet and copied the inverted blade from the Austrian Mannlicher M1895 bayonet.

    Regards,
    Bill

  21. #21
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    Updated VZ23 and early VZ24 production information. Corrections would be welcome.


    A-H blocks: 80,000 VZ23 started May 1923, produced by end of 1923, VZ23 type stock, VZ23 Long bayonet (400mm blade)

    I block: 10,000 VZ23A delivered in July 1924 with new removable rear sight bed, VZ23 type stock, VZ23 Long bayonet (400mm blade)

    J-M blocks: 40,000 VZ24 ordered December 30, 1923, interchangeable parts with few parts numbered, VZ23 type stock, VZ24 bayonet (300mm blade), produced after September 1924 - First VZ24 Order (These are the ones called by collectors "transitional VZ24" or just "VZ23". ZB called them VZ24. To collectors, the change from a VZ23 to a VZ24 stock marks the change from VZ23 to VZ24 rifles, since the stock is the major difference. To ZB, apparently it was the introduction of interchangeable parts and numbering only the receiver, barrel, bolt, and stock that marked the change from VZ23 to VZ24 rifles. The stock change came with the Second VZ24 Order although it is possible that the last of the VZ23 type stocks may have been used up in the beginning of the Second VZ24 Order.)

    N-R blocks: 50,000 VZ24 ordered December 31, 1924, VZ24 type stock - Second VZ24 Order

    S-first half of T blocks: 15,000 VZ24 ordered October 1925 – Third VZ24 Order

    Second half of T – X blocks: 45,000 VZ24 ordered November 1925, completed during 1925 – Fourth VZ24 Order

    In January 1926 Yugoslavia bought all of the Third Order and 27,000 of the Fourth Order, total 42,000. In 1929 Yugoslavia bought 50,000 more VZ24 for an overall total of 92,000 VZ24 rifles.

    from:
    http://www.fronta.cz/fotogalerie/cs-opa ... uska-vz-23
    http://hranicari.webgarden.cz/cz-vz-24
    http://www.guns-info.cz/modules.php?nam ... e&sid=1336
    Serbian and Yugoslav Mauser Rifles by Branko Bogdanovic

    Regards,
    Bill
    Last edited by geladen; 12-19-2012 at 05:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    S-first half of T blocks: 15,000 VZ24 ordered October 1925 – Third VZ24 Order
    Very interesting... I have a vz.24 serial# S 7230 that has E(lion)24 VTLU code
    I Swear On My Life, And My Love Of It, That I Will Never Live For The Sake Of Another Man, Nor Ask Another Man To Live For Mine. - John Galt

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    Quote Originally Posted by MP517PRCT View Post
    Very interesting... I have a vz.24 serial# S 7230 that has E(lion)24 VTLU code
    Then yours would have gone to Yugoslavia after first being accepted by the Czech. army. I have an E (lion)25 X block VZ24 that ended up in Iraq after probably passing through Yugoslav ownership. That was my first VZ24 from many years ago and I am just now getting the facts sorted out about early VZ24 production.

    I have not seen anywhere block letters being matched to year of production. I just recently put the pieces together from three Czech language websites, Branco's book, my X block VZ24, and my M block VZ23A (which ZB calls a VZ24). I have also not seen anywhere that ZB used the beginning of interchangeable parts and the discontinuing of numbering all parts as the dividing line between VZ23 and VZ24 instead of the stock change which came later. The Czech. websites just say the First Order (ordered December 30, 1923) was for VZ24, not VZ23. Branco confirms that the First Order was for VZ24 rifles (that would be the J-M blocks which still had the VZ23 stock).

    MMRW just says 40,000 VZ24 to Yugoslavia in 1926 (Branco says 42,000) and "over 10,000" in 1928, 1929, 1930 (Branco says 50,000 in 1929). No block letters are given in MMRW. MMRW does say that the 1926 Yugoslav order was ZB's first export order. The Turk order for 30,000 VZ98/22 rifles must have come later in the same year.

    Regards,
    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by MP517PRCT View Post
    Very interesting... I have a vz.24 serial# S 7230 that has E(lion)24 VTLU code
    Does your S block VZ24 have "VZ24" marked on the side rail?

    Regards,
    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    Then yours would have gone to Yugoslavia after first being accepted by the Czech. army. I have an E (lion)25 X block VZ24 that ended up in Iraq after probably passing through Yugoslav ownership. That was my first VZ24 from many years ago and I am just now getting the facts sorted out about early VZ24 production.

    I have not seen anywhere block letters being matched to year of production. I just recently put the pieces together from three Czech language websites, Branco's book, my X block VZ24, and my M block VZ23A (which ZB calls a VZ24). I have also not seen anywhere that ZB used the beginning of interchangeable parts and the discontinuing of numbering all parts as the dividing line between VZ23 and VZ24 instead of the stock change which came later. The Czech. websites just say the First Order (ordered December 30, 1923) was for VZ24, not VZ23. Branco confirms that the First Order was for VZ24 rifles (that would be the J-M blocks which still had the VZ23 stock).

    MMRW just says 40,000 VZ24 to Yugoslavia in 1926 (Branco says 42,000) and "over 10,000" in 1928, 1929, 1930 (Branco says 50,000 in 1929). No block letters are given in MMRW. MMRW does say that the 1926 Yugoslav order was ZB's first export order. The Turk order for 30,000 VZ98/22 rifles must have come later in the same year.

    Regards,
    Bill
    Bill,
    The sources you quoted above are, all but one, websites. The most viable of the sources listed however is the one which is not on the internet. Each of the websites contains information and original research done by Col. Dr. Miraslav Sada in his 1971 book (ŠÁDA, Miroslav: Československé ruční palné zbraně a kulomety, Naše vojsko, 2005), which was then reprinted in 2005 and a few years ago. Sada's research is the real McCoy and contains all the missing links you noted which I (and my Chicago translator) provided in the charts in the last 3 editions of MMRotW for both the Czechoslovak Army rifles and CZB's export arms. (Particularly true of the interchangeability "missing link", the changeover to precision manufacturing, and change in component serialization policy...which occured well into Vz.24 production) I have observed that in cuurent data on the internet that Sada is only occasionally cited as the true source. Some writers, in and outside of the Czech Republic, have been unscrupulously "borrowing" from him since day one of the internet. From Franek too. Both Sada and Franek did their research between 1969 and 1973 when CZB records were still in company hands. Their research is therefore primary, and the others secondary at best. The differences with Branko's data are small in most cases. However, if I had to select between them, as a general rule, I would lean towards crediting the Czechoslovak information. Branko's data is slim in many places which he freely admits is due to the loss of records at Kragujevic during WW II and after. The citations back to original factory documentation in Sada and Franek are extensive and well-stated.
    Regards,
    John
    Last edited by John Wall; 12-20-2012 at 07:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Wall View Post
    Bill,
    The sources you quoted above are, all but one, websites. The most viable of the sources listed however is the one which is not on the internet. Each of the websites contains information and original research done by Col. Dr. Miraslav Sada in his 1971 book (ŠÁDA, Miroslav: Československé ruční palné zbraně a kulomety, Naše vojsko, 2005), which was then reprinted in 2005 and a few years ago. Sada's research is the real McCoy and contains all the missing links you noted which I (and my Chicago translator) provided in the charts in the last 3 editions of MMRotW for both the Czechoslovak Army rifles and CZB's export arms. (Particularly true of the interchangeability "missing link", the changeover to precision manufacturing, and change in component serialization policy...which occured well into Vz.24 production) I have observed that in cuurent data on the internet that Sada is only occasionally cited as the true source. Some writers, in and outside of the Czech Republic, have been unscrupulously "borrowing" from him since day one of the internet. From Franek too. Both Sada and Franek did their research between 1969 and 1973 when CZB records were still in company hands. Their research is therefore primary, and the others secondary at best. The differences with Branko's data are small in most cases. However, if I had to select between them, as a general rule, I would lean towards crediting the Czechoslovak information. Branko's data is slim in many places which he freely admits is due to the loss of records at Kragujevic during WW II and after. The citations back to original factory documentation in Sada and Franek are extensive and well-stated.
    Regards,
    John
    John,

    I don't doubt that much of the information on the three websites came from the Sada book and maybe from Franek. I don't have the books and can't read Czech anyway. As I said before, I have to work with what information I can get. One little gem of knowledge that came from the websites is: The VZ23A differs from the VZ23 by having a removable sight bed. That was done to allow for different cartridge loadings to be used. The cartridge loading was changed after the VZ23 rifles were made, causing the rear sight to be somewhat inaccurate. The rear sight bed on the VZ23A was changed to fit the new cartridge and was made removable so that it could be changed again for future cartridges. That is a bit more understandable than the "sight notch" mentioned in MMRW.

    Sure, information from websites can be questionable - but three different Czech. historical websites, plus Branko, plus Andy in Slovakia agree with the information I presented about at what point the model designation was changed by ZB from VZ23A to VZ24.

    Personally, I don't care which way it was. I'm just trying to find out where my M block and X block rifles fit in. What I do know is that my M block does not have all the parts numbered like the early VZ23 rifles did and it does have a removable rear sight bed. The front band is numbered but I suspect the Germans did that.

    It may be that the major source of differences is simply caused by imperfect translations.

    Regards,
    Bill

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    Anyone: What is the earliest known VZ23A/VZ24 to have only the receiver, barrel, bolt, and stock numbered (made with interchangeable parts)? What is the latest known rifle to have all the parts numbered (made with non-interchangeable parts)?

    Be careful because the Germans added numbers to some rifles.

    Regards,
    Bill

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    The Vz23A rifle is confirmed in M range, the other information came in majority from one source,but not all could be correct, as the historian of Zbrojovka Brno Franek was not a specialist about model of weapons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyB View Post
    The Vz23A rifle is confirmed in M range, the other information came in majority from one source,but not all could be correct, as the historian of Zbrojovka Brno Franek was not a specialist about model of weapons.
    Hi, Andy,

    Just to be absolutely clear, please confirm that:
    A-H blocks were named VZ23
    J-M blocks were named VZ23A
    N and later blocks were named VZ24

    Do you know at which block ZB started numbering only the receiver, barrel, bolt, and stock?

    I found a 1924 made VZ24 E(lion)24 bayonet to go with my 1924 made M block VZ23A rifle. Note the circle around the lion. I understand the three websites to say that the VZ24 bayonet was first used with the J block rifles.

    Regards,
    Bill
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Czech. VZ23A 16.JPG   Czech. VZ23A 15.JPG  

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    All I have to add to this discussion is that I have a German modified vz24 with the vz23 crest, vz24 stock, Elion24, no grooves in sight base, and no evidence it has ever been in a vz23 stock. Serial N 63. I hope this clouds the waters further.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 103_1842.jpg   103_1839.jpg   103_1859.jpg   103_1837.jpg  

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    Not cloudy at all. The serial number tells the story. Everyone would agree that the N block would be early VZ24.

    It is interesting that it is marked E(lion)24 instead of E(lion)25.

    Regards,
    Bill

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    Hi,Bill,

    A-H blocks were named VZ23 i cant confirm this
    J-M blocks were named VZ23Ai cant confirm this
    N and later blocks were named VZ24 yes i believe this is right

    Do you know at which block ZB started numbering only the receiver, barrel, bolt, and stock?
    i believe in late 1925 was changed to 90% of changeability

    I found a 1924 made VZ24 E(lion)24 bayonet to go with my 1924 made M block VZ23A rifle. Note the circle around the lion. I understand the three websites to say that the VZ24 bayonet was first used with the J block rifles.
    i cant confirm this

    best regards,Andy

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    Bolts can be identified by serial number prefix:
    A-H VZ23
    Been reading this post most of the morn. Truely fascinating. Had to dig my J block out, never really took notice of this:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MVC-011S.JPG 
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ID:	616813
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    Looking for cocking sleeve #75.

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    Dont looks like J letter block of Vz.23 rifle.
    N63 is a normal Vz.24 rifle, unfortunally reworked by germans, so no normal condition, but stamps typical for early VZ.24.

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    ANDY: Was just wondering. That is the bolt that came with this rifle:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Looking for cocking sleeve #75.

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    Andy,

    Thanks very much for your posts 28 and 32 in answer to my questions. Thanks also to John Wall who has an English translation of Sada.

    The situation is still somewhat murky, but my best guess now is that the three Czech websites were at least largely using Franek as a primary source. AndyB said "the other information came in majority from one source,but not all could be correct, as the historian of Zbrojovka Brno Franek was not a specialist about model of weapons." So it appears that John Wall was correct all along to use Sada as the best source of information for the VZ23/VZ24 question.

    Here is the latest version of my summary. As always, further corrections are welcome.



    A-H blocks: 80,000 VZ23 started May 1923, produced by end of 1923, VZ23 type stock, VZ23 Long bayonet (400mm blade)

    I block: 10,000 VZ23A delivered in July 1924 with new removable rear sight bed, VZ23 type stock, VZ23 Long bayonet (400mm blade) The type bayonet information comes from the three Czech websites but I have a VZ24 bayonet marked E(lion)24. Made in 1924, the lion is in a circle like the 1923 rifles and bayonets.

    J-M blocks: 40,000 VZ23A ordered December 30, 1923, VZ23 type stock, VZ24 bayonet (300mm blade), produced after September 1924 - Branko calls this the First (VZ24) Order (He may have gotten that from Franek also). The stock change from VZ23 type to VZ24 type came in what Branko calls the Second Order although it is possible that the last of the VZ23 type stocks may have been used up in the beginning of the Second Order.)

    N-R blocks: 50,000 VZ24 ordered December 31, 1924, VZ24 type stock - First VZ24 rifles (Branko calls this the Second Order).

    S-first half of T blocks: 15,000 VZ24 ordered October 1925 – (Branko calls this the Third Order).

    Somewhere around here the change occurred to interchangeable parts with few numbered parts. Andy said "i believe in late 1925 was changed to 90% of changeability".

    Second half of T – X blocks: 45,000 VZ24 ordered November 1925, completed during 1925 – (Branko calls this the Fourth Order). My X block VZ24 rifle does not have a numbered rear sight. Some other parts on it are numbered but they are mismatched.

    According to Branko, in January 1926 Yugoslavia bought all of the Third Order and 27,000 of the Fourth Order, total 42,000. In 1929 Yugoslavia bought 50,000 more VZ24 for an overall total of 92,000 VZ24 rifles.

    from:
    John Wall (Sada)
    AndyB in Slovakia
    http://www.fronta.cz/fotogalerie/cs-opa ... uska-vz-23
    http://hranicari.webgarden.cz/cz-vz-24
    http://www.guns-info.cz/modules.php?nam ... e&sid=1336
    Serbian and Yugoslav Mauser Rifles by Branko Bogdanovic
    Last edited by geladen; 12-23-2012 at 07:26 PM.

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    BILL: A bit OT, but what are E-23 bayonets-both long and short selling for?
    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore is not an act, but a habit- -- Aristotle

    Looking for cocking sleeve #75.

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    Tom,

    I have bought both the VZ23 Short and Long bayonets on Ebay. The Long are very seldom seen (the similar Persian VZ98/29 is common). The Short are fairly common. Both the VZ23 Short and Long are usually mislabeled.

    I bought a VZ23 Short recently for $50 plus $8.13 shipping; they sometimes sell for less but I was in a hurry to get one for my VZ23A rifle (then I found out a VZ24 bayonet was correct for it and bought a German modified one dated 1924).

    As best I recall the Short usually can be had for around $35-40. The Long could be cheap if unidentified or expensive if labeled correctly. Finding one is the hard part. I only have one Long (export) and I don't recall what I paid for it. I have been unable to find any information on what export contracts used the Long. I put it on a Chinese P series VZ24 rifle since the Chinese liked long bayonets but I will move it if I ever find out for sure a country that used it. Probably South America.

    Regards,
    Bill

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    Tmann the rifle is VZ.23 but the bolt has not correct number.
    Bill, is probably not so possible define exact numbers and dates, i believe You are wrong in some places, firstly the czechoslovak alphabet used is different from german, secondly i personally dont believe that ever existed I block in first series, thirdly we already examined the Vz.23a configuration and start of Vz.24. Same as Vz.23a was equiped with Vz.24 bayonet and not with Vz.23long bayonet. The orders were sometime changed but this changes are not possible to find in the books, same as army used older stuff to export too. So is probably no possible made a clear chart of production or contract nr 1,2 or 3.
    Same i dont know where You got the delivery of Vz.23a in july 1924?
    Branko used only the Sada and Franek books, so this is not his information when You speak Branko calls it "second contract".

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyB View Post
    Tmann the rifle is VZ.23 but the bolt has not correct number.
    Bill, is probably not so possible define exact numbers and dates, i believe You are wrong in some places, firstly the czechoslovak alphabet used is different from german, secondly i personally dont believe that ever existed I block in first series, thirdly we already examined the Vz.23a configuration and start of Vz.24. Same as Vz.23a was equiped with Vz.24 bayonet and not with Vz.23long bayonet. The orders were sometime changed but this changes are not possible to find in the books, same as army used older stuff to export too. So is probably no possible made a clear chart of production or contract nr 1,2 or 3.
    Same i dont know where You got the delivery of Vz.23a in july 1924?
    Branko used only the Sada and Franek books, so this is not his information when You speak Branko calls it "second contract".
    Thanks for the reply, Andy. This is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for. In order to keep it simple, I'll deal with only one portion at a time. I understand what you said "So is probably no possible made a clear chart of production or contract nr 1,2 or 3." but give me your best guess of what it probably was.


    Please indicate what you think the Czechoslovak alphabet block letters and rifle model designations were for the following orders:

    _ blocks: 80,000 VZ2_

    _ block: 10,000 VZ2_

    _ blocks: 40,000 VZ2_

    _ blocks: 50,000 VZ2_

    _ blocks: 15,000 VZ2_

    _ blocks: 45,000 VZ2_

    Regards,
    Bill
    Last edited by geladen; 12-24-2012 at 01:01 PM.

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    homerj109,

    Sorry to hijack your thread. I have my VZ23/VZ24 production table running on multiple threads on multiple boards, but this thread is the one AndyB chose to answer. Andy lives in Slovakia, of course speaks Czech, and is a wonderful source of information on ZB rifles and bayonets. I'm really trying hard to get these blocks of VZ23, VZ23A, and early VZ24 sorted out. It is definitely a "work in progress".

    Regards,
    Bill

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    Please indicate what you think the Czechoslovak alphabet block letters and rifle model designations were for the following orders:
    I believe followed:
    ?-L blocks: 80,000 VZ23

    M block: 10,000 VZ23a

    N-R blocks: 40,000 VZ24

    S-X blocks: 50,000 VZ24

    unknown_ blocks: 15,000 VZ24

    unknown_ blocks: 45,000 VZ24

    These last blocks could be not determined because the period is same as some older rifles Vz.98 and Vz.98/22 were returned from army to ZB and used on some export, for these were made some other quantitys replacements of rifles Vz.24 which are not exact described in the books, same there are some minor contracts for replacement parts etc, so is no possible determine the exact range of letter series.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyB View Post
    Please indicate what you think the Czechoslovak alphabet block letters and rifle model designations were for the following orders:

    I believe followed:
    ?-L blocks: 80,000 VZ23

    M block: 10,000 VZ23a

    N-R blocks: 40,000 VZ24

    S-X blocks: 50,000 VZ24

    unknown_ blocks: 15,000 VZ24

    unknown_ blocks: 45,000 VZ24

    These last blocks could be not determined because the period is same as some older rifles Vz.98 and Vz.98/22 were returned from army to ZB and used on some export, for these were made some other quantitys replacements of rifles Vz.24 which are not exact described in the books, same there are some minor contracts for replacement parts etc, so is no possible determine the exact range of letter series.
    Thank you very much, Andy. I suppose that is as accurate as we can get with blocks at this late date. It fits my 1924 M block which is definitely a VZ23a with removable rear sight bed. And it fits my 1925 X block which is definitely a VZ24.

    It is important that the number of VZ23a rifles produced (10,000 M block) is determined and the first block (N block) of VZ24 rifles is determined.

    Regards,
    Bill

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    I believe that is so nearest to reality, i talked with John W. about it and with some other historian of czech and slovak republic.
    The first letters of alphabet You should look for 98/22 configuration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyB View Post
    I believe that is so nearest to reality, i talked with John W. about it and with some other historian of czech and slovak republic.
    The first letters of alphabet You should look for 98/22 configuration.
    Then there are the E block VZ98/22 rifles. Is it possible that ZB made:

    no prefix block VZ98 (with Lange sight) (10,000)
    A B C D blocks VZ98/22 (40,000)
    E F G H I J K L blocks VZ23 (80,000)
    M block VZ23a (10,000)
    N through X blocks VZ24 (two block letters skipped) (90,000) (X block made in 1925)

    And then later in 1927 made the E block VZ98/22 to follow the 30,000 rifles from the A-D blocks the Turks already had? That was a separate contract of new rifles and could have had any serial number prefix that the Turks wanted.

    VZ98/22 A-D blocks were 40,000 rifles. I suspect the Turks got 30,000, some from each of the four blocks. At least some of the other 10,000 went to China.

    Regards,
    Bill
    Last edited by geladen; 12-25-2012 at 08:39 AM.

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