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Vz 23/24? Help identifying stamps

12K views 62 replies 10 participants last post by  runner 
#1 ·
About a year ago I picked up a Czech Mauser at a gun show, I have done some research to try to identify what I have but I need the experts here to help me identify what the stamps are on this rifle.

I initially thought this was a Vz 23 since it is stamped on the left hand ring "E Lion 23", but when I measured it, it has the length of a Vz 24.

This leads me to believe this may be some kind of transitional Vz 24 with some Vz 23 parts. Since this is a possible Vz 24 I began to look for Nazi stampings on this. It took me a while but I found some very small stampings that kind of look like the Nazi eagle with the number 26 or 28 on both sides of the butt stock disk and the right side of the rear sight slide adjuster. There is also another stamping on the barrel just forward of the rear sight that I cant tell if it is a Czech lion or swastika.

I hope the pictures are clear enough for someone to confirm theses stampings and I appreciate any background or historical information anyone may have on this rifle.

Thank you.







 
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#2 ·
The waffenamt on the bolt disassembly disk (and the presence of the disk itself) indicates German use. E(lion)23 suggests VZ23. Your receiver serial number could confirm it. VZ23 and VZ24 barrels are the same length. If a VZ23, your front sight should be grooved on each side for a sight hood and the numbers on the rear sight should be more fancy than on a VZ24 (after about 1925).

Regards,
Bill
 
#3 ·
Thank you for the confirmation and information.

Mine does have front sight grooves for a hood, serial number H7372, and rear sight increments 1-20.

I was not aware that Vz 23s were also used by the Germans, was there any difference between how the Vz 23 and Vz 24s were distributed within the German Army?

Thanks again! I am glad you could confirm this rifle has so much history behind it.
 
#4 ·
An H prefix is beyond question a VZ23 receiver, and an early one at that. I can't tell from your photos if it has been placed in a VZ24 stock or if it still retains its original VZ23 stock and fittings.

The Germans took virtually all of the VZ23 and VZ24 rifles in use by the Czech. army for their own use. Unused VZ24 rifles in storage (or at least many of them) were sold to Romania. I have no information on how they were distributed in the German army. Mixing them would cause little difficulty.

The major difference between the VZ23 and VZ24 is the stock and fittings (and receiver crest). Some of the VZ23 rifles found today are in VZ24 stocks and may not be recognized to be VZ23 actions. I'm now waiting on delivery of a VZ23 like that from Gunbroker. It was advertised as a VZ24. I have an empty VZ23 stock #J3706 and bolt #H566 waiting for it.

Regards,
Bill
 
#5 · (Edited)
The VZ-23 has no side swivel at stock grip but rather a bottom rear swivel which moves slightly to the left to line the sling with the front side swivel. The distance between front edge of rear band and rear edge of front band is 2-3/4". The VZ-24 has a noticeable longer distance. These are the fastest ways to ID a 23 stock! As your rifle has a bolt disk installed in butt stock I will venture to say it is in a VZ-24 stock. A full length photo will tell all!
The VZ-23's were used for Police forces under the Germans, it has been reported.
The WaA number 26 inspector was at Berlin-Lubecker in 36-38. In 38 he moved to Mauser, Berlin and was there thru 1944. There was no number 28.
The 100 meter sight is unusual, I have only seen these on Lithuanian FN's.
 
#6 ·
Here are pictures as requested of the stock, to my untrained eye it looks to be a Vz23.



Also, can anyone confirm if the sights are original Vz 23 or something else? There is a small what appears to be a lion stamp on the side of the sight
adjuster.

 
#7 ·
Curious. You have a German modified VZ23 stock (good!) but the rear sight is not correct for a VZ23. Offhand, I can't think of any ZB made sights that started at 100 except for the Persian sights, and they were all marked in Farsi except for some of the M1949 sights made in Iran.

The original VZ23 and very early VZ24 sight had a different font for the numbers, more "curly". And it started at 300. If there are any small markings on your rear sight, that might be a clue.

Regards,
Bill
 
#9 ·
It is a K98k sight. Not too bad, since we know the VZ23 was German used anyway.

I have been looking for an affordable VZ23. About a year ago I bought an empty VZ23 stock that became available, hoping to find a VZ23 in a VZ24 stock. It took me a year but I found one on Gunbroker and am now waiting for delivery.

Regards,
Bill
 
#12 ·
There is a circle z stamp on the metal butt plate of the stock and what appears to be a 72, this stamp is hard to make out but there is a more clearly stamped 72 on the upper barrel band (circle z on the other side of it).

I picked this up at a gun show for $160, how did I do? I love how historic this rifle is, right now this is the centerpiece of my collection and I would never sell it, but I am curious of its value and how collectible it is. All of the parts are mostly matching with the receiver and magazine plate having the same serial number but the safety and the ring in front of the safety are stamped with a 83 and the charging handle base is stamped with a 583 above what looks like a cursive "L". The narrow ring in front of the safety also has some stamps I can't make out it looks like maybe a waffenampt eagle next to the original lion.
 
#14 ·
Need photos. VZ23 rifles were made with numerous parts serial numbered. VZ24 rifles had only the barrel, receiver, bolt, and stock numbered. $160 for a VZ23 is a steal. It sounds like your bolt might be German.

Regards,
Bill
 
#18 ·
The Czech. bolt would normally stay with the same serial number Czech. rifle. The German bolt could have been put in the rifle by anyone at any time. Naturally the value of the rifle is less than if it had a correct mismatched Czech. bolt and still less than if it had a matching bolt.

As for value, I just paid $263 plus shipping for a VZ23 from Gunbroker and thought that was cheap. It is in a VZ24 stock and was advertised as a VZ24. I don't even know what kind of bolt it has, but I have an empty VZ23 stock and a VZ23 bolt waiting for it.

Regards,
Bill
 
#19 ·
Just found this very interesting thread, now that I have retired I am just finding the time to explore mausers beyond the K98k category. I have two of the late VZ 23 rifles, both have mismatched, but Czech, bolts in them. How do I tell a VZ 23 bolt from a VZ 24 bolt? I have several Czech bolts in the parts box. May have one and not know it..

thanks, runner
 
#20 ·
Bolts can be identified by serial number prefix:
A-H VZ23
I-M VZ23A
N and later VZ24

The VZ23A rifles differ from the VZ23 rifles by having a removable rear sight bed (to accomidate changes in cartridges) and discontinuing the numbering of parts except for the receiver, barrel, bolt, and stock.

I just found a 1924 dated E (lion) 24 VZ24 bayonet on Ebay to go with my 1924 VZ23A short rifle. I think someone used it as a pry bar because it is bent and will not mount on the bayonet lug. I'm currently filing inside the grooves in the pommel to fix it. This is not the first time - it will fit when I get it done. It is German modified with a removed muzzle ring; the rifle has a replaced Czech. 1938 barrel with a German firing proof.

Czech. bayonets can be confusing. The following are correct for Czech. army used rifles:

VZ98/22 long rifle = VZ23 Short bayonet (250mm blade)
VZ23 short rifle = VZ23 Long bayonet (400mm blade)
VZ23A and VZ24 short rifles = VZ24 bayonets (300mm blade)

The blade edge is up on all the above. The blade edge is down on Persian VZ98/29 and a few export VZ23 Long and VZ24 bayonets.

Zbrojovka Brno (ZB) copied the bayonet design from the Romanian Mannlicher M1893 bayonet and copied the inverted blade from the Austrian Mannlicher M1895 bayonet.

Regards,
Bill
 
#21 · (Edited)
Updated VZ23 and early VZ24 production information. Corrections would be welcome.


A-H blocks: 80,000 VZ23 started May 1923, produced by end of 1923, VZ23 type stock, VZ23 Long bayonet (400mm blade)

I block: 10,000 VZ23A delivered in July 1924 with new removable rear sight bed, VZ23 type stock, VZ23 Long bayonet (400mm blade)

J-M blocks: 40,000 VZ24 ordered December 30, 1923, interchangeable parts with few parts numbered, VZ23 type stock, VZ24 bayonet (300mm blade), produced after September 1924 - First VZ24 Order (These are the ones called by collectors "transitional VZ24" or just "VZ23". ZB called them VZ24. To collectors, the change from a VZ23 to a VZ24 stock marks the change from VZ23 to VZ24 rifles, since the stock is the major difference. To ZB, apparently it was the introduction of interchangeable parts and numbering only the receiver, barrel, bolt, and stock that marked the change from VZ23 to VZ24 rifles. The stock change came with the Second VZ24 Order although it is possible that the last of the VZ23 type stocks may have been used up in the beginning of the Second VZ24 Order.)

N-R blocks: 50,000 VZ24 ordered December 31, 1924, VZ24 type stock - Second VZ24 Order

S-first half of T blocks: 15,000 VZ24 ordered October 1925 – Third VZ24 Order

Second half of T – X blocks: 45,000 VZ24 ordered November 1925, completed during 1925 – Fourth VZ24 Order

In January 1926 Yugoslavia bought all of the Third Order and 27,000 of the Fourth Order, total 42,000. In 1929 Yugoslavia bought 50,000 more VZ24 for an overall total of 92,000 VZ24 rifles.

from:
http://www.fronta.cz/fotogalerie/cs-opa ... uska-vz-23
http://hranicari.webgarden.cz/cz-vz-24
http://www.guns-info.cz/modules.php?nam ... e&sid=1336
Serbian and Yugoslav Mauser Rifles by Branko Bogdanovic

Regards,
Bill
 
#27 ·
Anyone: What is the earliest known VZ23A/VZ24 to have only the receiver, barrel, bolt, and stock numbered (made with interchangeable parts)? What is the latest known rifle to have all the parts numbered (made with non-interchangeable parts)?

Be careful because the Germans added numbers to some rifles.

Regards,
Bill
 
#29 ·
Hi, Andy,

Just to be absolutely clear, please confirm that:
A-H blocks were named VZ23
J-M blocks were named VZ23A
N and later blocks were named VZ24

Do you know at which block ZB started numbering only the receiver, barrel, bolt, and stock?

I found a 1924 made VZ24 E(lion)24 bayonet to go with my 1924 made M block VZ23A rifle. Note the circle around the lion. I understand the three websites to say that the VZ24 bayonet was first used with the J block rifles.

Regards,
Bill
 

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#31 ·
Not cloudy at all. The serial number tells the story. Everyone would agree that the N block would be early VZ24.

It is interesting that it is marked E(lion)24 instead of E(lion)25.

Regards,
Bill
 
#32 ·
Hi,Bill,

A-H blocks were named VZ23 i cant confirm this
J-M blocks were named VZ23Ai cant confirm this
N and later blocks were named VZ24 yes i believe this is right

Do you know at which block ZB started numbering only the receiver, barrel, bolt, and stock?
i believe in late 1925 was changed to 90% of changeability

I found a 1924 made VZ24 E(lion)24 bayonet to go with my 1924 made M block VZ23A rifle. Note the circle around the lion. I understand the three websites to say that the VZ24 bayonet was first used with the J block rifles.
i cant confirm this

best regards,Andy
 
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