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Thread: Very interesting Vietnam bringback pistol.

  1. #1

    Question Very interesting Vietnam bringback pistol.

    Here is something very uncommon. According to the owner, he picked up this gun from North Vietnamese officer in 1967 and brought it home. Unlike most of the cottage made Chinese and Vietnamese guns this one is very well made inside and out. Grips are black Bakelite and fit this gun perfectly. Markings are usual for south east asia - they are almost "English" On the right side "Wade in Rus sia", on the left "AUTQNJO JSTOL WANODEL" and "DANTNCP ATET TESTED". Also, gun is based not on the Mauser or Browning like the most asians, but on Czech "Little Tom" pistol. With few modification - caliber is 7.62x25, barrel is 6 3/4", 10 round mag. Original "Little Tom" is first double action pistol. This one is single action with a twist. Small lever in front of safety is selector switch. If you flip it back, gun become machine pistol like Russian Stechkin or Beretta 93. Selector is well designed - in full auto mode hammer released only after slide is closed. Did anyone has any info on this gun? I think I saw something like this one in some gun magazine about 20 years ago...
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  2. #2
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    Boy, is that an interesting pistol. Kind of amazing how such a crude industry could come up with a quality pistol like this.

  3. #3
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    Clyde is offline Gold Bullet Member and Noted Curmudgeon
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    Quote Originally Posted by moosedog View Post
    Boy, is that an interesting pistol. Kind of amazing how such a crude industry could come up with a quality pistol like this.
    That one was probably made up north in a real factory/machine shop. North Viets were entirely capable of ordinary machine shop operations of the sort required for firearms production. just not in large runs.
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

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    I think origin is Chinese but story is plausible. Is a rare bird , enough so that anyone who
    gets fussy over bring back papers ought to remain silent. Unique thing like this don't need
    papers for legitimacy but it would be nice to ID who made it.

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    Very interesting

    Would love to add this vol IV of Vet Bring Backs if you have anyway of getting a statement from the guy?

    Otherwise, would make a nice one page example of Vietnam made gun? [email protected]

    email me if interested / would need hi-rez pictures and commentary

    Ed
    Edward Tinker
    ************
    Co-Author of Police Lugers 2012
    Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I & Vet Bring Backs Vol II - VOL III now out / Collections of stories on guns & equipment brought back by GI's.
    Co-Author of Simson Lugers

    Have all books available for purchase

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post
    That one was probably made up north in a real factory/machine shop. North Viets were entirely capable of ordinary machine shop operations of the sort required for firearms production. just not in large runs.
    True they made the SKS's. I wonder why the cheesy fake marks (more fodder for that English marks thread!) on this versus the SKS's.

  7. #7

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    This could be a problem:

    "Small lever in front of safety is selector switch. If you flip it back, gun become machine pistol like Russian Stechkin or Beretta 93. Selector is well designed - in full auto mode hammer released only after slide is closed"

    Did he register it in the 1968 amnesty or is it not in the U.S.?
    Last edited by tgus; 11-08-2012 at 09:06 AM.

  8. #8
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    very cool
    never seen anything like it before

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    I love these things. Pistol is Chinese made. The accepted name given by collectors is "Mauserin". Could very well have come from Vietnam. I've seen pictures of others, but, this one looks just like mine. Possibly made at the same time, and location. My serial number is, 2405. This one is 2007. Some examples, will accept a shoulder stock. Here's a few shots of mine, with a Chinese made M1900 Browning clone.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails china 003.jpg   china 002.jpg   china 001.jpg  
    Before starting any serious collection: Spend your first thousand dollars on reference material. It's money in the bank.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trenchwarfare View Post
    I love these things. Pistol is Chinese made. The accepted name given by collectors is "Mauserin".
    Are you sure about Chinese origin? Over the years I had a large number of chinese pistols from Shansi to hand made ones. And non was made like this one... Any information will be very welcome! Also, I thought "Mauserin" is this gun:
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    The gun you have has nothing to do with Mauser besides form of the hammer. It is "Little Tom" on steroids. As I can see yours is semi auto, is it double action? Can you take a photo of the gun without right side cover? Unfortunate this gun cannot be disassembled - some one hammered in the pin behind chamber, so barrel cannot be removed.Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgus View Post
    Did he register it in the 1968 amnesty or is it not in the U.S.?
    Honestly - no idea...

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by edward tinker View Post
    Very interesting

    Would love to add this vol IV of Vet Bring Backs if you have anyway of getting a statement from the guy?

    Otherwise, would make a nice one page example of Vietnam made gun? [email protected]

    email me if interested / would need hi-rez pictures and commentary

    Ed
    Will e-mail you tonight.

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    My info, comes from paperwork sent to me by Lew Curtis. The pistol you show as "Mauserin", he refers to as an M1914 Style III (FN Mauser). There are four models, with slight variation. My pistol, and the one in this post, he refers to as "Mauserin". He also goes on to say, that it is a scaled up, "Little Tom", and that all known examples, appear to be made at the same factory. Mine is single action, and the safety, is just a safely. I'll see what I can do about pictures.
    Before starting any serious collection: Spend your first thousand dollars on reference material. It's money in the bank.

  14. #14
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    Quote "This could be a problem:

    "Small lever in front of safety is selector switch. If you flip it back, gun become machine pistol like Russian Stechkin or Beretta 93. Selector is well designed - in full auto mode hammer released only after slide is closed"

    Did he register it in the 1968 amnesty or is it not in the U.S.? "

    You didn't really expect an answer did you?

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    I took my sideplate off. Trigger linkage is exactly the same, minus the other switch.
    Before starting any serious collection: Spend your first thousand dollars on reference material. It's money in the bank.

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    GrozaB,
    Congratulations on a great find. I have documented a number of these pistols, in both US collections and a number in a collection in Finland. I have a few in my collection. Thanks for adding one to my data. Of the ones I have seen, about half have the double switches like yours and the other half have single switches. These Little Tom Copies come in both 7.63 Mauser and 32 ACP and are Chinese made. One of the pistols I have documented is SN 5008 which is almost identical to yours. The right side is marked "MADE IM RUSSIA" and the left "AUTONJSTOMANODEL" (probably Automatic Model) and "DANTONPAETESTDED" (probably Danton Patent or something similar). This one also came out of Vietnam and carved a bit crudely into the right grip is the NVA flag and the numbers "7" and "66" which looks like a date. In the left grip is a tiger and "588 VIET".

    The first of these pistols I saw, and obtained for my collection is also almost identical to your's, except with a single switch, was marked on the right "MAUSERIN" which is the name I used for this class of pistol in a paper I wrote quite a few years ago (Trenchwarfare, glad you found it useful). This gun was captured on Iwo Jima by a Marine, and came with the capture papers. One of the Japanese units defending the island, had been sent directly from Northern China and that is the probable source of the gun. The left side of the pistol is marked "MAFENFBIK MAUSE AIG OBERNDORFAN" and "MAUSER PATENT" which is the Mauser version of the markings on your pistol. All the pistols I have seen have either the Mauser or Danton markings, and the Danton markings are accompanied by the Made in Russia marks on the right side. This is true of both the 32ACP and the 7.63mm Mauser pistols. The Mauser marked pistols have a "Y Z &" mark on the right sideplate and I have no idea of the significance of this marking. My 32ACP Danton marked pistol also had a symbol I call a "Tented J" which looks like a somewhat flattened "J" with a triangle on top. I have found this mark on pistols that show some obvious arsenal style rework (both Chinese pistols and some European Pistols, like a Danton War Model which was extensively reworked). I'm pretty convinced this is a Chinese rework mark and is further evidence, to me, that these pistols are Chinese made from before, and perhaps during, WWII.

    As you can tell, I am very interested in these pistols and would greatly appreciate photos and information on any others that are floating around out there.

    Like Hairygreek, I have wondered about the "cheesy fake marks" on the Chinese pistols. They were obviously put there to make the pistol look like a European pistol to another Chinese. In conversation with Chinese, one of whom is the son of Chiang Kai Shek's chief of ordnance, who told me that the vast majority of the gunmakers in the arsenals had never been exposed to Westerners, much less the Western alphabet. They were given markings to put on the gun, which could have been a 10th or 50th generation copy of the originals with accumulated errors, and did their best with symbols that they didn't understand. I recognized the problem from the opposite prespective when I would carefully copy Chinese markings from pistols and send them to Chinese friends to translate. Usually, my friend could not make heads or tail of the characters I had drawn that looked, to me, the same as the original. When I sent a photo of the same markings, my friends would have no trouble. The fact is that my attempt to sketch with a pencil characters that I was totally unfamilar with, and intended to be made with a brush, rendered them unintelligible yet they looked OK to me!!!

    An example are three Chinese Pistols I have documented that are based on the Mauser 1910/14 pistol, but a good deal larger and in 7.63mm Mauser. A pistol in the 2000 SN range has only giberish on the side. I then got a photo of one in the 5000 range and the Western letters began to sound like Chinese words. Then I obtained one for my collection in the 7000 range and it also sounded like Chinese words and the first word looked like Hanyang (the well known Chinese Arsenal) but with a "v" in place of the "Y". A comparison of my pistol and the 5000 range pistol showed that the first word was also probably the result of a Chinese speaker trying to render Hanyang into western script, and the other words were similar like Bing on the older pistol and Ping on mine. A Chinese friend had no trouble figuring out that someone was trying to write the Chinese words for "Hanyang Military Factory" in western letters!!! With this insight, I'm pretty sure that the markings on the 2000 range pistol were an earlier and much less accurate attempt to do the same thing.


    Great, thread! Thanks to everyone.

    Cheers,

    Lew Curtis
    Last edited by Lew; 11-09-2012 at 09:43 AM.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by moosedog View Post
    Quote "This could be a problem:

    "Small lever in front of safety is selector switch. If you flip it back, gun become machine pistol like Russian Stechkin or Beretta 93. Selector is well designed - in full auto mode hammer released only after slide is closed"

    Did he register it in the 1968 amnesty or is it not in the U.S.? "

    You didn't really expect an answer did you?
    I would hate for someone to get in trouble. Unregistered machine guns are not something to mess with of course.

  18. #18
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    Thanks for the input Lew, and welcome aboard. Chinese homegrown pistols, are a fascinating study. The variations are endless. Wish I would have gotten into them sooner.
    Before starting any serious collection: Spend your first thousand dollars on reference material. It's money in the bank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lew View Post
    Like Hairygreek, I have wondered about the "cheesy fake marks" on the Chinese pistols. They were obviously put there to make the pistol look like a European pistol to another Chinese. In conversation with Chinese, one of whom is the son of Chiang Kai Shek's chief of ordnance, who told me that the vast majority of the gunmakers in the arsenals had never been exposed to Westerners, much less the Western alphabet. They were given markings to put on the gun, which could have been a 10th or 50th generation copy of the originals with accumulated errors, and did their best with symbols that they didn't understand. I recognized the problem from the opposite prespective when I would carefully copy Chinese markings from pistols and send them to Chinese friends to translate. Usually, my friend could not make heads or tail of the characters I had drawn that looked, to me, the same as the original. When I sent a photo of the same markings, my friends would have no trouble. The fact is that my attempt to sketch with a pencil characters that I was totally unfamilar with, and intended to be made with a brush, rendered them unintelligible yet they looked OK to me!!!
    This problem started over 100 years ago, when a tariff act in the USA began the requirement of putting the country of origin on imports. I have several pieces of porcelin with the characters for CHINA stamped strangely, my favorite being ƆHIИA. Those who made and used the stamps obviously didn't have a clue.
    I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a sestertius in any one day.

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    Chinese Pistol. Okay, so its easily possible for it to have migrated to the Viet Minh , later NVA and gone south in the war.

    My question to the OP is this: Where was this weapon captured during the Indochina War and what year?
    I ask this because it can lend further credibility to the piece. For instance , if it were captured / found in 1964 or 65 in Laos, or I Corps in SVN, its probably a Viet Minh origin weapon still in Pathet Lao or NVA use. If it were found in IV Corps are in SVN in 1970, its most likely Viet Cong use and the weapon came down HoChiMinh trail during French Indochina war period with Viet Minh cadre .

    THanks for any info.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by milprileb View Post
    Chinese Pistol. Okay, so its easily possible for it to have migrated to the Viet Minh , later NVA and gone south in the war.

    My question to the OP is this: Where was this weapon captured during the Indochina War and what year?
    I ask this because it can lend further credibility to the piece. For instance , if it were captured / found in 1964 or 65 in Laos, or I Corps in SVN, its probably a Viet Minh origin weapon still in Pathet Lao or NVA use. If it were found in IV Corps are in SVN in 1970, its most likely Viet Cong use and the weapon came down HoChiMinh trail during French Indochina war period with Viet Minh cadre .

    THanks for any info.
    This gun was captured in 1968 during the defense of the Bien Hoa Air Base.

  22. #22
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    I have a number of Chinese pistols that came out of Viet Nam and seen others. Apparently these were supplied over the years by the Chinese. A number of them were altered to shoot 9x19mm ammunition, mostly by reboring the barrel and either adding a spacer in the 7.63 mm Mauser magazine, or in one case, adding spacers in the mag well so a P38 mag could be used.

    Cheers,
    Lew

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrozaB View Post
    This gun was captured in 1968 during the defense of the Bien Hoa Air Base.
    My bet it was in Viet Cong hands when attacks on Bien Hoa Air Base occurred in Tet 68. NVA main force
    were with standard firearms by then. Thanks for the info.

  24. #24
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    pretty cool piece. one more pistol I didn't know I'd have to add to my list. I kinda collect 7.62x25 mm pistols... be a long time before i can afford one of these... thanks for the history, and pics.

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    You'll probably be able to afford one, waaay before you find one. You also need one of these...
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    Before starting any serious collection: Spend your first thousand dollars on reference material. It's money in the bank.

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