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  1. #1
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    Default VZ23 Serial Number Blocks

    With the help of some poorly translated Czech. websites, I think I have figured out the VZ23 serial number blocks.

    A-I blocks: 90,000 VZ23 ordered autumn 1922 (bayonet VZ23 long, 400mm blade or VZ23 short, 250mm blade[?])

    A-H blocks: 80,000 VZ23 started May 1923, produced by end of 1923

    I block: 10,000 VZ23A delivered in July 1924 with new rear sight

    J-M blocks: 40,000 VZ24 (still in VZ23 stocks) ordered December 30, 1923 (aka Transitional VZ24)
    Change to add wrist swivel determined February 7, 1924 (bayonet VZ24, 300mm blade)

    N and later blocks: VZ24 made in VZ24 stock September 1924 and later

    Regards,
    Bill


    VZ23 1

    History : A brief history of MS. rifle mod. 24 (3)

    Posted on Thursday, 23 November 2006 @ 00:00:00 CET by David_Pazdera

    In the penultimate part of our seriálku comes to recap on how the actually rifle mod. Became vz 98 rifle. 24th Filling Order 40000 opakovaček Mauser mod. 98 and vz. 98/22, in which the permission is still used by each MNO non-replaceable components purchased in Germany, Zbrojovka Brno lasted until the end of 1923. Since the second half of the deliveries have also conducted further modified design, which was created in response to demand shorter rifles autumn 1922nd Order Total 90,000 shortened mauserovek already traveled to Brno in late 1922 with their solutions in the form of a "single gun" that should meet the needs of infantry and cavalry and artillery, will not work until May 1923rd The new rifle mod. 23 was 1100 mm long (590 mm barrel) and from the model 98/22 long 1250 mm (740 mm barrel) also differed mainly solved differently belt loops: the bottom bracket was moving strap on his bottom and solid loop on the left side, third strap was pivotally mounted on a plate bolted to the bottom hlavišti stock. In this embodiment, by the end of 1923 produced 80,000 guns mod. 23, which in arms-technical office at Zbrojovka Brno took over in January 1924th The remaining 10,000 units were delivered in 1924 with a new visor with interchangeable curved side walls base looks, making it of these rifles can shoot both the original charge and the new ammunition with different ballistic performance. Such amended guns were labeled model. 23 A . On 30 December 1923 was issued an order for another 40,000 shortened rifles, whose form was determined at the Armaments Commission 7th February 1924. A key change was the approval of the side tabs on the butt of the neck (the length of the blade of the bayonet was fixed at 300 mm). From September 1924 were as follows solved rifle known as the Mk. 24 . Completion soon.

    From: http://www.fronta.cz/fotogalerie/cs-...ci-puska-vz-23



    VZ23 2


    History

    ARČSR after its establishment needed a new rifle as 300,000 rifles Mannlicher vz. 95 which had only 68 million rounds (only about 225 rounds per gun). This type rifles after replacing rifle vz.24 got out of active service in war zálohy.Výrobou new rifles was charged Zbrojovka Brno.Její final result was a rifle vz .24. This rifle was adjusted rifle mod. 98, which were licensed copies of the Mauser rifle model 1898th Originally she was to be used and was chartered in 1921. The army came only in the number of 10,000 units, in 1922 it was decided to replace the rifle model. 98/22, which had no original German visor, but? Mexican 'and otherwise dealt nadpažbí. The total number of copies of these weapons was 40 000 (30 000 vz.98/22) and were used in these other swap components. The order was fulfilled in 1923. Already in 1922, but was ordered shorter rifle in the number 90000 and so the rifle vz.23, from model 98/22 with different length and different solved the belt loops. In the same year we supplied 80,000 of these rifles, which in arms and Technology Authority took over in January 1924. The remaining 10,000 units were delivered to the following year with a new rifle, designated hledím.Tato rifle vz.23 A. before 30 December 1923 were ordered another 40,000 rifles, which had different side of the neck strap butt and bayonet blade 300 mm long, the bayonet had the designation vz.24, this rifle were named vz.24 (other name: Mauser vz.24). The final outcome expected for a few minor adjustments that make price dropped sharply. Also underwent modifications to the sniper version that the army Czechoslovakia never received. It was the first rifle in Czechoslovakia with freely interchangeable parts. Over time, the equipment was given the number 762000 pieces. Later, displacing all other rifles in the military reserves. Was successfully exported to zahraničí.Později it also used the army and the Slovak State Německa.Do table numbers of these rifles in the Czechoslovak Army lacked 300,000 units, which were represented vz.95 Mannlicher rifles. Production model 24 ended in 1942. default objects used in light fortifications in front of them was 5 They had it all there, except shooters kulometů.Sloužila loopholes to defend the entrance and improvised the main střílny.A mainly in the forests and in the May mobilization. In the interwar period, the rifle vz.24 Camel civilian version Z. The barrel length was 540 mm or 520 mm. Calibre is denoted as 8/57. Later, after the war, and vz.98 vz.24 rifles were modified to meet the needs of hunters due to lack of hunting weapons. Technical data: vz.98 rifle and vz. 98/22 (only difference is the visor and nadpažbím) * Manufacturer: Zbrojovka Brno year: 1922-1923 arms length: 1250 mm Barrel length: 740 mm Caliber: 7.92 mm magazine capacity: 5 rounds Muzzle velocity: 860 m / s in service: about 10,000 (vz.98), 40000 (vz.98/22) Rifle Mk. 23 (varies belts), vz.23 A (different looks), vz. 24 (varies belts) * Manufacturer: Zbrojovka Brno since 1937 in addition armament race in Považská Bystrica Year: 1923-1942 (vz.24), 1923-1924 (vz.23), 1924 (vz.23 A) length Weapons: 1100 mm (1400 mm with bayonet for vz.24) Barrel length: 589.3 mm length blade bayonet vz.24 (for rifle vz.24): 300 mm length and width of the belt at vz.24: 110cm, width 3.5 cm caliber: 7.92 mm magazine capacity: 5 rounds Range: 2000 m Muzzle velocity: 860 m / s Weight: 4.08 kg (with bayonet vz.24 has 4,484 kg) in service with MS. Army: 762,000 units (vz.24), 80000 (vz.23), 10000 (vz.23 A) in service with the Slovak Army: 176 000kusů (vz.24) vz.24 of ammunition for the army: 424,000 000 pieces, furthermore 141 million pieces of ROP in stock (for vz.24): First Republic is a nut, produced under the Protectorate be made ​​
    of laminated veneer exports according to data from 1942 (vz.24): Romania - 750,000 units Bolivia - 101,000 pieces China - 195,000 units in Japan - 40,000 pieces of Yugoslavia - 10,000 pieces Spain - 40,000 pieces Iran - 30,000 pieces of Brazil - 15,000 pieces Lithuania - 15,000 pieces of Turkey - 40,000 pieces of Columbia - 10000 pieces Ecuador - 30,000 pieces of Uruguay - 4000 pieces Peru - 5000 Guatemala - 4000 pieces

    From: http://hranicari.webgarden.cz/cz-vz-24



    VZ23 3


    Rifle Mk. 23 caliber 7.92 mm Mauser system is the final precursor rifle mod. 24 , which at the time of the First Republic, formed the most popular Czechoslovak weaponry. infantry.


    At the beginning of the Czechoslovak Republic was the state the number of infantry weapons deplorable, armament was looking here and there, in small quantities, often from war production and therefore poor quality, various designs and calibres. The first step towards the Mauser rifles was made ​​
    shortly after the First World War, when it was purchased by the Dutch block of 57,000 rifles Mauser mod. 1898, which came from the German armaments division disarmed after the armistice on Dutch territory. It turned out that this rifle has a better design and more favorable ballistic properties than the Austro-Hungarian rifle of Mannlicher with přímotažným Finally, talk to her and wartime experiences. Construction of the model 23 is just an adaptation of the German Mauser rifle.

    In 1920, Czechoslovak Zbrojovka Brno state bought the complete documentation and manufacturing machinery for the production model 1898 Mauser rifles from Germany and during the year, fully arranged for the production of rifles of this system. First began to produce military rifles partly assembling components purchased more war in Germany and partly own novovýroby some parts. The first type was described as a model 98/22 (total length without bayonet 1250 mm, 740 mm barrel).


    Another production rifles, later called vz. 23, took place at the company has completely Czechoslovak Zbrojovka Brno state. From the first type 98/22 differed distinctly solved loops for belt and especially shorter barrel. Both patterns but did not allow interchangeability of components between different pieces of the same pattern and because it was still a large number of parts that require manual completion (interchangeability but not even the first orders of the MNO required). Production model 23 rifles took place between December 1922 and were produced in total and the army passed 90,000 units (80,000 units mod., 23 and 10 000 pcs vz. 23a). Firearms Technical Office at Zbrojovka Brno rifles took over in January 1924 and they were immediately assigned to the equipment. Originally delivery notes were designated as "short rifle mod. 98 ", later" model. 98/23 "and up in arms according to the draft technical oddělnení finally rifle mod. 23 .

    the last 10,000 rifles were equipped with a new visor with interchangeable curved side walls visor base, making it of these rifles can shoot both older hub and new ammunition with different ballistic performance 1 ) . Such amended to label as weapons mod. 23a and were delivered in July 1924.


    You shoot the piece is on the left side of breech marked "E", a lion in a circle 2 ) and two digits of the year, taking over "23", below that is marked "D 1560". Above the chamber is stamped with the manufacturer's name "MS. Wed ZBOJOVKA BRNO ". At the end of the handle is stamped on the top of the "N4 3662". The ring on the barrel of the rifle is marked "9 HN "and" 405 ".


    Rifle Mk. 23 is a repeating rifle with a revolving conclusion Mauser system tray and stored in the barrel with a capacity of 5 rounds in two rows. Caliber ammunition used is 7.92 × 57 Mauser edgeless cartridge (cartridges with keyway) and conical (ogival) missile. The rear sight is adjustable to 100 meters from 300 to 2000 m.


    Rifle Mk. 23


    Weight of rifle

    4.10 kg

    Length Rifles 1100 mm

    mainly 590 mm

    deliberate 505 mm

    Velocity

    860 m / s

    Ammunition

    7.92 × 57 Mauser

    Range

    2000 m


    The rifle belonged and bayonet model. 23 , which was designed according to the requirement on the basis of the MNO RU Mannlicher bayonet model. 95th It was produced in several versions:

    •long - in variants with the blade away from the main and toward the barrel, otherwise the same design, total length 537 mm, blade length 403 (400) mm, inner collar diameter 15.5 mm, length 415 mm sheath, known as bayonets vz. 23 exported to Iran,


    •short - only vzráběný design with cutting edge toward the barrel, length 384 mm, blade length 250 mm, length 363 mm vagina.


    Marking is located on the bayonet blade below the crossbar - from one side "CSZ" from the second letter "E", MS. lion in the ring, and the last two digits of the year, taking over "23". Markings on rostrums vagina was the same as the bayonet. Marking of the unit to hilt (not as usual on the later head hilt) is unfortunately very difficult to read (and probably 7155). His photographs will be added later. Remarks:


    1) A new type of ammunition was in 1923 still in the development stage.

    2) Acceptance Mark MS. Army, little lion, was struck in 1924 in design in the ring, and in 1925 was larger lion and no ring.


    Sources:


    •FIDLER, George - pole Vaclav Encyclopedia Armed Forces of the Czechoslovak Republic 1920-1938, Libri, Prague 2006.

    •MOUDRÝ, Paul: Bayonets Czechoslovakia, Ars-Arm, Prague 1992nd

    •PAZDERA, David: A brief history of MS. rifle mod. 24 (3), [online] http://www.guns-info.cz/modules.php?...ticle&sid=1336 , 7 7th 2010th

    •Set, Miroslav: Czechoslovak small arms and machine guns, our troops, 2005.

    http://hranicari.webgarden.cz/cz-vz-24 , [ online ] , 18 8th 2010th


    From: http://www.fronta.cz/fotogalerie/cs-...ci-puska-vz-23





  2. #2
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    Bill,
    There is a translation error in the last few lines. The entry (copied below) which reads "Set, Miroslav..." should be: "Sada, Miroslav, Colonel Dr., Czechoslovak Rifles and Machineguns". This book is actually Dr. Sada's Phd thesis (IIRC) and was published in Czechoslovakia in 1972 or 73. It was quickly obtained by the US Army's foreign technology intelligence organization which in 1973 commissioned a full translation into English. This translation has long been in informal public circulation but only hand-to-hand. In the Czech Republic, Sada's book has been republished/reprinted twice (now with color illustrations) but only in the original language. This research and book provided the basic historical material for the other sources quoted, which are much more contemporary. When read with Otakar Franek's three volume history of Ceskslovenska Zbrojovka Brno, you get a good picture of the situation.
    Regards,
    John

    Set, Miroslav: Czechoslovak small arms and machine guns, our troops, 2005.
    Last edited by John Wall; 11-13-2012 at 07:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Wall View Post
    Bill,
    There is a translation error in the last few lines. The entry (copied below) which reads "Set, Miroslav..." should be: "Sada, Miroslav, Colonel Dr., Czechoslovak Rifles and Machineguns". This book is actually Dr. Sada's Phd thesis (IIRC) and was published in Czechoslovakia in 1972 or 73. It was quickly obtained by the US Army's foreign technology intelligence organization which in 1973 commissioned a full translation into English. This translation has long been in informal public circulation but only hand-to-hand. In the Czech Republic, Sada's book has been republished/reprinted twice (now with color illustrations) but only in the original language. This research and book provided the basic historical material for the other sources quoted, which are much more contemporary. When read with Otakar Franek's three volume history of Ceskslovenska Zbrojovka Brno, you get a good picture of the situation.
    Regards,
    John

    Set, Miroslav: Czechoslovak small arms and machine guns, our troops, 2005.
    John,

    Not having Sada or Franek, I have to work with what I can find.

    I was hoping you could offer some corrections to what I wrote - or confirm it.

    Two areas of which I am unsure are:

    If the J-M blocks were officially labeled VZ24 or VZ23A, and

    If the VZ23 short bayonet (250mm blade) was the "correct" bayonet for any of the blocks.

    To me, the stock is the major difference between the VZ23 and VZ24, so it makes no sense to label the J-M blocks as VZ24 if they still had VZ23 stocks (with an added wrist swivel). Maybe to ZB it was more important that it was a design change and/or a new contract being manufactured in the year 1924.

    I know the VZ23 short bayonet was used with the VZ98/22 long rifle (and I just learned it was developed from the Romanian bayonet for the M1893 rifle). Whether or not the VZ23 short bayonet was also used with the first VZ23 short rifles is unclear to me.

    Today I will pick up my first VZ23 (transitional VZ24 [?]) from my dealer. It is an M block in a VZ24 stock that I will put in a J block stock that never had a wrist swivel, so it must have been made in Jan - Feb 1924.

    Whenever I get a new model gun I try to find out as much as I can about it, which is the reason for my VZ23 focus at this time.

    Regards,
    Bill

  4. #4
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    Hi Bill,
    The translation is a bit difficult to work through but in the main, its stands up pretty well. The main differences I see (I think) are in the transitiion to the Vz.24. I'll post what corrections I may have when I get home tonight and check my records. Just going from recollection though, the Vz.23 did not end with the 90,000 rifles in the first order, which would be the J-block, but actually carried over 20,000 or more based on the serial number observations. I have or have had vz.23's (or reports of Vz.23s) in the K and M blocks, so I would hazard a guess that the late M or most likely (IIRC) the N block is the real transition point when the stock, bands and handguard changed.
    Regards,
    John
    Last edited by John Wall; 11-13-2012 at 01:00 PM. Reason: spelling, clarifactions

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    There's a matching stock L block VZ23 at http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...d-VZ-23-Mauser with no wrist swivel which brings into question wrist swivels being on the J-M blocks.

    Regards,
    Bill

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    Agreed, I don't think the real Vz.24 stocks and receivers started til the M or N block.
    Just a distant memory as I sit at my desk supposedly doing something very different than the GB Mauser Forum! :-)
    John

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    John, I picked up the two rifles today. The VZ23 (M block) is in a VZ24 stock. The stock serial number matches the receiver but it has no prefix, just four numbers. I suspect this VZ24 stock is an early replacement. The bolt is also four numbers with no prefix or suffix, different from the receiver numbers. I am holding a spare H prefix VZ23 bolt to go in this rifle, also a J prefix empty VZ23 stock.

    The front 1/4 of my homemade VZ23 handguard is from a Yugo VZ24 replacement handguard and the rear 3/4 is from a Turk VZ98/22 replacement handguard. Amazingly, the wood matches beautifully. The two parts join under the rear band.

    Both my empty J block VZ23 stock and my spare H block VZ23 bolt have the prefixes marked on them.

    The four digit bolt that just came in may have to go in my Guatemalan VZ24.

    The Persian Kar98a looks good and I also got a Sg98/05 bayonet in the mail today for it. Christmas in November!!!

    Photos of both plus a new-to-me Spanish M1916 first pattern short rifle later, probably Monday (weather permitting). Waiting on delivery of a Langanhan Heeres Modell pistol with holster and extra mag.

    Regards,
    Bill
    Last edited by geladen; 11-13-2012 at 09:53 PM.

  8. #8
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    Bill,
    Congratulations on getting the Vz23. Looking forward to the pictures!

    I checked my records last night and found that I have owned five vz.23's. I'm still searching for the records of one, but the other four are in the F, J, K and M serial number blocks. I still have the F and K block rifles. If you have a copy of Mauser Military Rifles of the World, 5th edition, you will find a picture of the F block rifle at the bottom of page 113, where it is labeled as "Bob Bennett Collection". I bought it from Bob many years ago just before he passed away. This rifle has been in German service and has Kru depot stamps on the stock. Interestingly, its stock, swivels and bands are Vz.23, but it also had a wrist swivel (like the Vz.24) which was likely added later while it was still in Czechoslovak service. It was then likely removed by the Germans, and that is its present state.

    My K block rifle is shown in MMRotW on pages 113 and 115. Thiis is an un-altered Vz.23 still with original finish on its wood and unit-marked to the 41st Infantry Regiment. The stock and bolt have "K" prefix before the four digit serial number. Its rear sight side plates do not appear to be removeable, but than I have never checked that when I had the rifle apart. A good job for this weekend.

    The J and M block rifles (and 1-2 others) were Century imports that I picked up in St Albans in about 2001. They were mismatched but in otherwise nice condition and were priced right at about a hundred apiece. Those were the days!
    Regards,
    John

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    John,

    Thanks for the info. This is one interesting VZ24 stock that came on the M9086 VZ23. It is marked Czech. style with a matching 9086 serial number on the butt - but with no prefix. I'm thinking it was Czech depot marked on a replacement stock. The front band is lightly marked on the left side with four small numbers, 9086 matching - but with no prefix. The Czech. bolt is marked the same way but 5677 not matching. I'm thinking the Germans made both those markings, the bolt obviously a replacement unnumbered bolt serialed by the Germans for a different rifle. Neither the stock nor the bolt had any other numbers. The buttplate has an early Orberndorf K167 in a box, must be a German armorer part. The wrist swivel is removed and the holes plugged. The stock disk is marked P13 for Czech. 13th Infantry Regiment. The rear sight side plates appear to be separate pieces and the numbers are the curly font. Numerous parts are circle Z marked, large on the trigger guard and bolt arm root. No parts are numbered other than those mentioned. I have not had it out of the stock yet.

    The first photo is the 7th company of the 13th Infantry Regiment in 1935, note the VZ24 bayonets - not VZ23 long or VZ23 short. The second photo shows VZ23 rifles. They seem to have VZ24 type sight guards. The finish in front of and on the sides of my front sight is worn, it looks like from a VZ24 type sight guard. No date or unit on the second photo. The two company commanders look younger than the troops.

    Regards,
    Bill
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 7th Company, 13th Infantry Regiment 1935.jpg   Troops with VZ23 1.jpg  
    Last edited by geladen; 11-14-2012 at 09:03 AM.

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    VZ23 rifles with sight hoods . . . and VZ23 long bayonets.

    Regards,
    Bill
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Troops with VZ23 2.jpg  

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    The VZ-23 arrived at my FFL and I got a chance to look it over before it went into the safe for the 10 day "cooling off" period.

    It is partially matching...the upper band, handguard, stock, trigger guard, and sight all match. The floor plate and bolt do not. The bolt is a a "G" series bolt.

    Bore looks great...sharp rifling and shiny.
    ...a fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place...

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