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Thread: First Carcano w/pics: Info needed

  1. #1
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    Talking First Carcano w/pics: Info needed

    Hello all,

    This is my first Carcano. I got it from the local shop this morning for $150. I dont know anything about these rifles, other than they are built on "Manlicher Style" actions, similar to my Steyr M95. It appears to be complete, and from what I can see(dont know where to look) the serial number on the barrel sleeve and stock match. I dont even know what model it is(I know its not a cavalry carbine, they have the fold up bayonet. 91/24 or 28 maybe?) but It appears it was made at the Beretta Gardone arsenal in 1936. I do know its 6.5mm, not 7.35 and the only thing it appears to be missing is the loading clip. Id like to know as much about it as possible, so any help is appreciated. How did I do? Opinions please, Thank you.






    Last edited by mech4matsnova; 11-19-2012 at 01:42 PM.
    When you need it and don't have it - you sing a different tune

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  2. #2
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    I still have A LOT to learn about these too... but it appears to be a slightly newer version of the 1932 Carcano in my collection.

    I am prepared to be corrected, but I believe your rifle to be a 1936 Beretta Gardone Carcano Mod. 91/28 Moschetto T.S.

    T.S. stands for the "Special Troops" but I believe the Italian supply system was horrible so these were issued to anyone...

    The Roman Numerals XIV on your rifle stand for Mussolini's 14th year in power...

  3. #3
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    Here are a few horrible snaps of my rifle and a video for comparison:
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMoaX5qsNVc

    You're right, it should be chambered in 6.5 unless it was modified after leaving Italy... I've heard of German Volksturm being issued Carcanos rechambered to 8mm. Modified rifles are sometimes marked as such... do you see anything on the receiver/ barrel shank/ barrel?

    If I were you, grab a handful of clips for it! They were meant to be used once and then left on the battlefield, so if you can find older ones they tend to be rare.

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    Gizmo8z your carbine is beautiful. Maybe after a good cleaning and a light polishing with some 0000 steel wool mine might look half as good as yours. Only thing I notice different on yours is the sling mount recessed into the side of your stock. Mine doesnt have that. How does it shoot? The only rifle I have similar to this one is my Steyr M95 in 8x56R. That cartridge is a beast in a light carbine, I imagine 6.5 will be much more tame.
    When you need it and don't have it - you sing a different tune

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    Quote Originally Posted by mech4matsnova View Post
    Gizmo8z your carbine is beautiful. Maybe after a good cleaning and a light polishing with some 0000 steel wool mine might look half as good as yours. Only thing I notice different on yours is the sling mount recessed into the side of your stock. Mine doesnt have that. How does it shoot? The only rifle I have similar to this one is my Steyr M95 in 8x56R. That cartridge is a beast in a light carbine, I imagine 6.5 will be much more tame.
    Thanks for the kind words! I really lucked out on my carbine... It was super clean when I got it, has a nice stock and great metal. My carbine actually has a rare steel vendor code and is featured in the "Italy's Battle Rifle" reference book.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I also noticed the differences between the sling mounts on our rifles... not sure if that's a variation or something they did to ease production on later runs of M91/28s as yours is 4 years "younger" than mine...?

    My rifle shoots great! Very little recoil and is easy to handle... it is a very compact little carbine! My rifle had a worn out extractor when I first got it, but a 15min trip to Numrich and $10 fixed that. :D Check out the vid I posted above!

    A lot of people bash Carcano's as being inaccurate... but they fail to realize that the Carcano series of rifle has a unique sight picture and you can't aim it the same way you aim other rifles... Once I figured this out, I'd say my rifle is just as accurate as any other comparable firearm.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIZMO8Z View Post
    My carbine actually has a rare steel vendor code and is featured in the "Italy's Battle Rifle" reference book.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I should have mentioned earlier. Italians felt it was important to know exactly where the steel for their arms came from. You might be able to make it out on your rifle without taking the barreled receiver out of the wood... but if you do take it out, you'll definitely be able to make out the steel vendor code on the barrel shank flat under the date.

  7. #7
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    One can find the TS model with bottom sling mounts only, side sling mounts only, or with both side and bottom mounts on the same carbine or Moschetto.
    03man - Don Voigt
    Author of "The Japanese T99 Arisaka Rifle" 2010 edition
    Co-author of "The Knee Mortars of Japan 1921-1945" 2011 edition
    Near Charlotte, NC

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    You Guys have nice examples! Thanks for sharing.

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    Thanks for the pic, Ive got it broke down now for cleaning. Its a C for Cogne, not rare I guess with a range of '28-'40.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 03man View Post
    One can find the TS model with bottom sling mounts only, side sling mounts only, or with both side and bottom mounts on the same carbine or Moschetto.
    Ahhh... Italy. The land where anything goes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arditi View Post
    You Guys have nice examples! Thanks for sharing.
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by mech4matsnova View Post
    Thanks for the pic, Ive got it broke down now for cleaning. Its a C for Cogne, not rare I guess with a range of '28-'40.
    Don't down-play it! You've still got a nice carbine. Can't wait to see it post-cleaning. Snap some photos outside if possible!

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    Will do, thanks Gizmo, Mr. Voigt, and Arditi
    When you need it and don't have it - you sing a different tune

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    I can't tell for sure what marking you have on the left barrel flat - the one right below the serail number. Does it appear to be a shield in a circle? If so, that's a "Crusader Shield which is a dedicated navy mark. Sometime when you have it from the stock, examine the action closely for anchors. They can be found about anywhere including the bolt root or side of the tang.

    The shields are normally seen above the serial number on the left side of the stock, but I don't see one there in your pic. Look next to the top tang where the bolt rides - if there's a 5 point star there, it has been refurbed. Which might explain no shield on the stock or anchor on the bolt root.

    For some reason, the Regia Marina used a lot of Beretta TS. SW
    Of all the things I ever lost, I miss my mind the most.

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    Yes, It appears to be a shield. Looks like a shield with a cross on it. I didnt see a star or any anchors on it. What use would the Italian Navy have for these carbines? The other marking next to it appears to me a "MR" in a circle. The bolt root has a mark on each side, top is a 3D inside a rectangle, Front L, Bottom looks like TNT in a circle with something above it also in the circle, back has a 4. PB on the sight base and underneath the receiver with a crown above it. ZA inside a rectangle with 1 1 9 2 3 on the top of the butt plate.
    When you need it and don't have it - you sing a different tune

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    Looking the pics over again, I see the stock serial # has no letter prefix = from a civilian TS. Add to that the Navy took several blocks of TS from the civilian production. All of which is consistent with a navy refurb.

    The way you describe the shield confirms that it is in fact a navy TS. There should be an anchor somewhere on the gun. Mighht be small or hard to find.

    What would the navy do with a TS? Same as everyone else - the navy had components heavily involved in close combat. SW
    Of all the things I ever lost, I miss my mind the most.

  15. #15
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    Anchor on the bottom of the barrel shank along with a * 7,3, and Y. All trigger group parts and the magazine are marked B, Trigger Guard is marked SF in an oval.
    When you need it and don't have it - you sing a different tune

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  16. #16
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    I'm away from home and don't have my notes. By chance I found these in a flash drive I happened to have along containing pics I sent to Arditi. SW

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    Of all the things I ever lost, I miss my mind the most.

  17. #17
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    Nice catch on the Italian Naval connection Steve!

    Mech, you did quite well on your first Carcano!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5thDragoons View Post
    Looking the pics over again, I see the stock serial # has no letter prefix = from a civilian TS. Add to that the Navy took several blocks of TS from the civilian production. All of which is consistent with a navy refurb.

    The way you describe the shield confirms that it is in fact a navy TS. There should be an anchor somewhere on the gun. Mighht be small or hard to find.

    What would the navy do with a TS? Same as everyone else - the navy had components heavily involved in close combat. SW
    The Moschetto TS is the shortest rifle in the 91 series and probably, for this feature, it was given to the Navy, hi Gioche

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    Any idea of it's value, im not going to sell it because I really like it but I just would like to know. Not expecting big bucks, just a realistic value so I know how I did. Also, how common are the navy carbines? I don't think its rare or anything as it was in a shop in bfe Mississippi.
    When you need it and don't have it - you sing a different tune

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  20. #20
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    Update:

    Some pics after a serious cleaning. It cleaned up nice, cant wait to get to the range and put some rounds through it! Sorry for my lack of photography skills, doing the best I can with what Ive got. The last picture is one with its Manlicher Cousin/Austrian Ally Steyr M95 in 8x56HR. I will carry my camera with me to the range and get some pictures/video when I get the chance to play with it. Thanks to all for your assistance and tolerance of my noob questions.



    When you need it and don't have it - you sing a different tune

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  21. #21
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    Looks good! Congrats!

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    Does it have any import marks on the barrel? I think most/all Carcanos from Italy have "Made in Italy" on them. If there are no marks I'd guess it's from Yugoslavia, and if there's a CAI barrel mark I'd guess it's from Albania.

    Also you should have inspector stamps on barrel and receiver. These appear on the left side of barrel/receiver and are two letters in an oval.

    http://translate.google.com/translat...it%2Fil91.html here should show you many stamps and what they mean.

  23. #23
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    Greek,

    The barrel is marked "Made in Italy" on the left side. Thank you for the link.
    When you need it and don't have it - you sing a different tune

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    "Made in Italy" is the older style of import mark. I think pre-1968. Basically means it wasn't a war capture bringback.

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    Another carcano noob question. Which bayonet is correct for this carbine and where can I find a repro sling for it. I have already aquired ammo and clips, now I would like to complete it with its issued accessories I just don't know which ones are correct. Thanks again for your help.
    When you need it and don't have it - you sing a different tune

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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mech4matsnova View Post
    Another carcano noob question. Which bayonet is correct for this carbine and where can I find a repro sling for it. I have already aquired ammo and clips, now I would like to complete it with its issued accessories I just don't know which ones are correct. Thanks again for your help.
    About Bayonet you need a standard Long Rifle M1891 one. For the sling I don't know I live in Italy

    regards
    Krag-Jørgensen Gevær M/1894 (Lang Krag), Krag-Jørgensen Gevær M/1894 (Privat), Krag-Jørgensen Karabin M/1904, Krag-Jørgensen Karabin M1912/22, Krag-Jørgensen skarpskyttergevær M/1923, Krag-Jørgensen Elgriflet M/51, Krag-Jorgensen skarpskyttergevær made in the last '70s, Krag-Jørgensen Gevær M1889/10, Krag-Jørgensen M1889/24 Artillery, Krag-Jørgensen Carbine M1889 ( M.89 1929)

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by redimacchia View Post
    About Bayonet you need a standard Long Rifle M1891 one. For the sling I don't know I live in Italy

    regards
    Thank you for your help!
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  28. #28
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    Liberty Tree may (or may not) have authentic Carcano slings. When I first got my rifle, I heard mix results as to what was the proper sling for my rifle!

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    Ok, another question. Which arsenal was my carbine made at? Was it one or both? I have not seen any other pictures of carcanos similar to mine with the same arsenal marks. From all the research I have done on this carbine I cant find much information on arsenals other than a few estimated production numbers. Thanks for your continued help with this.
    When you need it and don't have it - you sing a different tune

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  30. #30
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    Beretta arsenal, Gardone is the town where the factory is located, estimated production 100,000 (with civilian production), ciao gioche

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    Thank you again for your assistance with my noob questions.
    When you need it and don't have it - you sing a different tune

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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by giochegio View Post
    Beretta arsenal, Gardone is the town where the factory is located, estimated production 100,000 (with civilian production), ciao gioche
    Civilian production, like mine!

    Edo

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    Nice information Giovanni; great to have you here!

  34. #34

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    Could you clarify this please............."A lot of people bash Carcano's as being inaccurate... but they fail to realize that the Carcano series of rifle has a unique sight picture and you can't aim it the same way you aim other rifles...."

    Thanks in advance

    JF

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    Quote Originally Posted by john fiorentino View Post
    Could you clarify this please............."A lot of people bash Carcano's as being inaccurate... but they fail to realize that the Carcano series of rifle has a unique sight picture and you can't aim it the same way you aim other rifles...."

    Thanks in advance

    JF
    With traditional sights, the front sight blade and notch of the rear sight match up to essentially fill up the notch of the rear sight. With the Carcano, the front sight blade goes to the bottom of the rear sight notch and the target rests in between the notch of the rear sight.

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  36. #36

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    Thanks so much for the info. My last stupid question is...........If the shooter wasn't aware of this the result would be???.........Anything consistent, such as "high and to the right" for example?

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    Quote Originally Posted by john fiorentino View Post
    Thanks so much for the info. My last stupid question is...........If the shooter wasn't aware of this the result would be???.........Anything consistent, such as "high and to the right" for example?
    No such thing as a stupid question! I believe it would shoot really high... Possibly off paper

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    Thanks so much for your info. I really appreciate it!

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