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Thread: 49/56 magazines

  1. #1

    Default 49/56 magazines

    Is anyone makeing and selling high capacity magazines in 308 for these rifles? bbe

  2. #2
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    No. You're pretty much stuck with 10 rounds unless you convert the reciever to hold different style magazines or alter metric FAL mags to have the side clip.

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    You must be rich if you can afford to rattle off 20 rounds of 7.62NATO or .308 at a time. I'm happy with 10 rounds in my MAS as it keeps the weight down. 20 rounds of 7.62NATO is getting heavy.
    Damn the expense, use your turn signals today... and as a special favour, try doing it before you have two wheels in the next lane.

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    A box of Bear 308 is ~$8 for 20rnds; much cheaper than what I pay for 7.5 and about what I pay for a box of .45

    ...errr I just checked the price and see they're ~$12/box these days. Good thing I stockpiled up as often as I could.
    Last edited by 7.5x54 fan; 12-20-2012 at 05:54 AM. Reason: HOT DAMN those prices went sky high!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7.5x54 fan View Post
    A box of Bear 308 is ~$8 for 20rnds; much cheaper than what I pay for 7.5 and about what I pay for a box of .45

    ...errr I just checked the price and see they're ~$12/box these days. Good thing I stockpiled up as often as I could.
    I take it you have a 7.62 converted MAS 49/56. How does it shoot?
    Damn the expense, use your turn signals today... and as a special favour, try doing it before you have two wheels in the next lane.

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    The appearance of my MAS 49 at the range with its 10rd magazines caused the rest of the shooters to start carrying them. They are easier to handle and the weapon is easier to do the tire house with.

    BTW - Although it was not intended, I shoot the tire house with the night sights on and sight down it for snap shots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVSteve View Post
    I take it you have a 7.62 converted MAS 49/56. How does it shoot?
    Swimmingly; I've done what it takes to get it from the chop-job CAI did to it to something worth being proud about - installed an original uncut recoil spring and the Starmetal Adjustable Gas Valve*. Lightened the trigger pull. Lapped and smoothed the chamber even though I've never had a rim separate. Modified the mags for 308 like the article suggested; created two 20rd but they don't work as well as I want (yet). Accurate enough for me to plink paint cans @~150yrds and mowing down wild hogs; accuracy at range is somewhat less with soft points (it looks like the semi-auto action smacks the soft tip un-aerodymanically).

    It did something to my shoulder last time I had it out, but I think I just got old.

    * if you've got a MAS 49/56 in 7.62/308 you (or anyone else reading this) should definitely consider acquiring one firstly above doing anything else to it; it has changed my view of this rifle from night to day. I believe this lone piece of hardware single-handedly changes this rifle back in to what it *should* be.

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    Thnaks for the report. I think I have the magazine mod article. I bought one of Starmetal's valves while he was making the latest batch just in case I found a 7.62 conversion.
    Damn the expense, use your turn signals today... and as a special favour, try doing it before you have two wheels in the next lane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7.5x54 fan View Post
    Swimmingly; I've done what it takes to get it from the chop-job CAI did to it to something worth being proud about - installed an original uncut recoil spring and the Starmetal Adjustable Gas Valve*. Lightened the trigger pull. Lapped and smoothed the chamber even though I've never had a rim separate. Modified the mags for 308 like the article suggested; created two 20rd but they don't work as well as I want (yet). Accurate enough for me to plink paint cans @~150yrds and mowing down wild hogs; accuracy at range is somewhat less with soft points (it looks like the semi-auto action smacks the soft tip un-aerodymanically).

    It did something to my shoulder last time I had it out, but I think I just got old.

    * if you've got a MAS 49/56 in 7.62/308 you (or anyone else reading this) should definitely consider acquiring one firstly above doing anything else to it; it has changed my view of this rifle from night to day. I believe this lone piece of hardware single-handedly changes this rifle back in to what it *should* be.
    Did you ever try any Remington 150gr core locks. These bullets have jackets that run right up to the tip and don't get beat up too bad. I hand load them for my 7.5x54. I sent for a Starmetal valve this past week. I'm tired of looking for my brass 20 feet away.

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    Link to converting LMG 24/29 mags, available here( http://www.ima-usa.com/french-7-5mm-...-magazine.html) for use in the 49/56:

    http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/vie...?f=159&t=68250

    Should work with .308 with a little adjustment. If anyone has a link for converting FAL metric mags for .308, I'd appreciate having it.
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    I enjoy shooting my MAS 49/56 and M1a rifles. It was weird to me at first that the French did not make a standard 20 round mag (I have seen the mods in Algeria by armorers in A Proud Promise) After becoming very comfortable with the MAS (the best battle rifle in my opinion) the French knew that the 10 rounds balanced the rifle very well. Also, +1 to whomever pointed out the idiot who would pop off 20 rounds of 7,5 quickly like you see those idiots on youtube with their ar's and ak's. Waste of ammo!
    ----
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    I have no problem with the ten round magazine. I have stripper clips. Besides I will hit my adversary the first shot. Hitting paper takes five rounds to evaluate rifle and shooter. The .308 was developed from the 7.5 french.

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    Really ? I thought that the 7.62 NATO was based on the 300 Savage.

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    I believe that when this cartridge was bieng developed they had looked at the 7,5x54 mm cartridge as a basis for development of it, they did use the .300 Savage known as T65 for making it though. They probably saw the benefits of the French cartridge as excellent and set out to develop thier own unique cartridge.

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    It is hard to question Patrick on French military questions... However, I have heard and read that the 7,62nato was based closely on the 7,5 French. This is one (of many) reasons that the French military did not phase it out quickly when everyone was going to 7,62N. Personally, I find the 7,5 a very effective round.
    ----
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    I would argue the family resemblance goes the other way for the 7.5x54. The 7.62x51mm has a in depth discussion of its develop available to historians, each time one of those developers broke wind it resulted in a document that said, "wind, breakage there of, and effect on ballistic coefficient." While nothing that detailed does not to my knowledge exist on the 7.5x54, we can make some surmises based on what the French had and how they used it.

    Take a 7.65 mm Mauser fired cartridge and put it into a 7.5x54mm reloader. The cartridge fits. Then take a 6.5x55mm case - it not only fits but can easily be used to make a 7.5x54mm casing. The bullet from each though is just a tad big for comfort trying to fit it into a 308 or 7.5 case. My caliper says .311 while the 7.5x54 is a true .308 - so maybe tolerances were looser but I am not so sure. Now take a bullet from a 30-06 - again a true .308. So nearly every other rifle bullet on the continent in the .30 camp (7.65x55mm Mauser, 7.62x54mmR and .303 British) is actually .311+, but the French choose the American dimensions to the hundredth of an inch.

    I would argue that the designers of the 7.5x54mm had a 7.62x63mm or choose the bullet dimensions with an idea of getting supply from the United States commercial sources. I would further argue that the case design was simply a Mauser case with the serial numbers rubbed off.

    So:

    The 300 Savage was birthed from the 250-3000 Savage which itself was just a short 30-06 which was a unique design started with the .30-03.

    Thus the family tree is:

    .30-03 (a new design) >> 30-06 (7.62x63mm) >> 250-3000 >> 300 Savage >> 7.62x51mm
    -----------------------------> 7.5x54 (with the Mauser line as its other birth parents)

    Thus arguably, the 7.5x54mm and 7.62x51mm are cousins.
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    The French 7,5x54 cartridge ( like the 7,5 Swiss) is not a .30" caliber, the barrel bore is 7,50mm with four grooves 0,15mm deep and the bullet diameter is 7,77mm.

    If the French engineers had wanted to evolve a cartridge from the 3O.06 they would have been clever enough to keep the same head diameter to facilitate fabrication but instead they choose a larger head size.

    The French had experimented various high speed rimless cartridges dimensions since 1890, with diameter ranging from 6 to 8mm, the 7,5x54 was the result of 30 years of design, testing, powder improvement.....

    kelt
    Last edited by kelt; 12-26-2012 at 12:34 PM.

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    I make my 7.5 French cartridges from 6.5 Swedish gallery cases. I pull the stamped bullet, remove powder, replace powder and then install salvaged Nato 150gr. 7.62 bullets. shot thousands without problem. I use the bullet as neck sizer. I thought the French developed their 7.5 in 1927. Gary

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    In the Sixties I had the opportunity in Africa to compare the efficiency of the Mas 49-56 as opposed to larger capacity rifles like the G3 and the Fal.

    It's my opinion that the 49-56 was faster on target and less cumbersome in the green than the two others, the smaller magazine was not a disadvantage, shooting more than a few rounds from one location being often very unhealthy, replacing the used magazine or refilling it with clips while relocating to a new fighting spot was standard practice for us.


    A few 15 round magazines would have been a good complement for the 10 round mag since the 7,5x54 ammo was boxed in 3 clips of 5. The absence of full auto capacity of the 49-56 was not felt as a drawback either, seeing the poor result of full auto fire from the other side.

    The 18 rounds magazine developped to give the 49-56 a chance against the Fal, G3 and M14 during the timed Nato shooting contests was never made available in large quantities:




    kelt
    Last edited by kelt; 12-26-2012 at 01:28 PM.

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    Should work with .308 with a little adjustment. If anyone has a link for converting FAL metric mags for .308, I'd appreciate having it.
    You can make a 7.62x51 FAL metric magazine work in a .308 conversion by pushing it in and making scribe marks/outline of the mag latch and holes on the side of the magazine and mount a latch as was shown in the link at surplus rifles.com with the 7.5 magazine. The FAL magazine will not work at all with the 7.5x54 round but works fine with .308/7/62x51 rounds in the Century converted/rechambers 49/56 rifles.
    Nothing needs to be ground on, filed or fitted, except attaching the latch to the magazine body. The bolt hold open will not work with the MAS/FAL mag combination, so you'd have to count your rounds or wait for a click of a dry fire to realize it's time to reload.
    The magazine latch assembly can be tacked with a welder or riveted in place.
    The rivets were just small tacks with the heads in the mag with the pointed ends coming out and getting tapped down/over to hold the latch in place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelt View Post
    The French 7,5x54 cartridge ( like the 7,5 Swiss) is not a .30" caliber, the barrel bore is 7,50mm with four grooves 0,15mm deep and the bullet diameter is 7,77mm.

    If the French engineers had wanted to evolve a cartridge from the 3O.06 they would have been clever enough to keep the same head diameter to facilitate fabrication but instead they choose a larger head size.

    The French had experimented various high speed rimless cartridges dimensions since 1890, with diameter ranging from 6 to 8mm, the 7,5x54 was the result of 30 years of design, testing, powder improvement.....

    kelt
    Just for the safety of the reloaders here. Reloaders who have pulled bullets and examined cases say that the bullet is a true .308 and the case identical to a necked out 6.5 Swedish link.

    Kelt, you may be correct that the bullets were designed as 7.7mm and were not influenced by the Mauser or the .30-06, but somewhere between the design room and the factory the actual barrels and ammunition that make it to the United States are all true measure at .308 rather than .312 that is common in Europe prior to the 7.62x51 (for the .303 British as an example). Reloaders use .308 bullets and loads designed for a true .30 weapon (often the .30-40 load data). If it was a true 7.7mm then it would use 7.62x54mm bullets or .303 British, around .312.

    Also, it may be correct, and I believe you that it is, that the French designed the 7.5 clean room from its own experiments, but one trick arms and ammo historians do to find out how a cartridge developed is to ask the question what cartridge can I make this from? In the case of the 7.5 French, the 6.5 Mauser resizes precisely, while the bullet uses the same twist as the 30-06. Under ordinary circumstances it is forgivable to logically assume that these cases were parents to the 7.5 based on the rules of similarity (one cartridge can be used to make another) and primacy (earliest designed is father of later designed). Although the developmental path of the 7.62 NATO us well attested, it can also be tracked back by using reloading presses and seeing the .30-03 become progressively more 7.52N like.

    Thanks for all the info and merry Christmas!
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    Err, no. A 7.77mm bullet has a diameter of .306". A .308 round for comparison is 7.82mm. The difference is small, but you must be careful with bore numbers from different countries. .303 British defines the bore diameter between the lands, as does 7.5 French. The 308 Winchester is not called 7.82mm in Europe because again they use the diameter between the lands, which is .3" or 7.62mm.

    As an aside I see the link quoted by Western repeats the myth of 7.5 French being a much lower pressure round than 7.62 NATO. I am told the 40,000 CUP thing started in Cartridges of the World and has caused grief for many years. Like the .308 vs 7.62 NATO debate, I suspect that a disconnect in the measurement methodology, calibration methods and units. COTW liked to quote in CUP and I think somebody thought they had a conversion factor between CUP and BAR as measured in France and screwed the pooch. From an earlier post by Kelt regarding pressures, the CIP standards are:

    7.62x51 Nato = 52250 Psi or 3600 bars
    7.5x54 Fr = 50750 Psi or 3500 bars

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...Reloading-Data

    Also, the real reasons for many of the converted 49/56 rifle tearing off heads are:

    1) Century cut the recoil spring to reduce the bolt velocity going forward to avoid slamfires with ammo using commercial primers

    2) They used a chamber reamer that was dull and left a chamber ideal for the case to get a death grip.

    3) Many of the folk who had problems were using commercial .308 ammo that had the wrong pressure curve for a semi-automatic designed for a faster powder. There is not an issue with .308 being a higher pressure round as that is another urban myth.

    Those who have replaced the recoil spring and had the chamber cleaned up report that their 49/56s function just fine with 7.62 NATO ammo with the usual 147-150gr bullet.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVSteve View Post
    Err, no. A 7.77mm bullet has a diameter of .306". A .308 round for comparison is 7.82mm. The difference is small, but you must be careful with bore numbers from different countries. .303 British defines the bore diameter between the lands, as does 7.5 French. The 308 Winchester is not called 7.82mm in Europe because again they use the diameter between the lands, which is .3" or 7.62mm.

    As an aside I see the link quoted by Western repeats the myth of 7.5 French being a much lower pressure round than 7.62 NATO. I am told the 40,000 CUP thing started in Cartridges of the World and has caused grief for many years. Like the .308 vs 7.62 NATO debate, I suspect that a disconnect in the measurement methodology, calibration methods and units. COTW liked to quote in CUP and I think somebody thought they had a conversion factor between CUP and BAR as measured in France and screwed the pooch. From an earlier post by Kelt regarding pressures, the CIP standards are:

    7.62x51 Nato = 52250 Psi or 3600 bars
    7.5x54 Fr = 50750 Psi or 3500 bars

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...Reloading-Data

    Also, the real reasons for many of the converted 49/56 rifle tearing off heads are:

    1) Century cut the recoil spring to reduce the bolt velocity going forward to avoid slamfires with ammo using commercial primers

    2) They used a chamber reamer that was dull and left a chamber ideal for the case to get a death grip.

    3) Many of the folk who had problems were using commercial .308 ammo that had the wrong pressure curve for a semi-automatic designed for a faster powder. There is not an issue with .308 being a higher pressure round as that is another urban myth.

    Those who have replaced the recoil spring and had the chamber cleaned up report that their 49/56s function just fine with 7.62 NATO ammo with the usual 147-150gr bullet.
    Thanks for the information. When we developed the loads I use it was from talking with the people who made our press (and then sold us the dies) and by pulling the bullets from the cartridges -- all of which measured .308 true and allowed us to use standard .308 bullets. The pressure level that the reloader used to develop the loads, I have been told does indeed recognize the limit of 40,000 you quote - again on recommendation of the company that makes the dies. Obviously we have to have another conversation with the die maker! However I would not be surprised to find the major die making companies have messed up a conversion on an obscure calibre - history is filled with this happening (causing Mars probes to crash into Mars for example).

    It does make me want to further explore the measuring tools we use, just in case. My headspace gage for example could be made from poor data. While it is not noticeable on the range, reloading is obviously dangerous if you are using the wrong data such as that supplied by the reloading die company.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western View Post
    However I would not be surprised to find the major die making companies have messed up a conversion on an obscure calibre - history is filled with this happening (causing Mars probes to crash into Mars for example).
    An excellent example. There is a big clue on the Wikipedia page regarding the 40,000 CUP figure for 7.5 French being suspect. Their table reads as follows.

    9.0 g (139 gr) Balle "C" FMJ ----- 823 m/s (2,700 ft/s) ----3,038 J (2,241 ft·lbf)
    9.7 g (150 gr) SP --------------- 850 m/s (2,800 ft/s) ----3,550 J (2,620 ft·lbf)
    11.7 g (181 gr) SP -------------- 790 m/s (2,600 ft/s) ---- 3,650 J (2,690 ft·lbf)

    Test barrel length: 574 mm (22.6 inch) (A MAS 36 most likely)

    Look at the velocities for the 150gr and 180gr bullets. According to the Accurate Powder reloading data for .308, a 150gr bullet requires 46.0gr of 2495 powder to achieve 2806fps for a pressure of 47,900 CUP. A 180gr pill requires 43.0gr of 2495 powder to achieve 2592fps for a pressure of 50,800 CUP. Accurate quote these velocities from a 24 inch barrel. It is pretty obvious that without some clever trick like a built in linear accelerator to augment muzzle velocity , the MAS 36 is not going to make similar velocities with a limit of 40,000 CUP.

    My first job was in high end metrology, and when I first started reading about reloading I was frankly appalled at the various measures of chamber pressure in common use, namely SAAMI CUP, SAAMI PSI and CIP piezo and the different methods used to arrive at the numbers. There is no standard accepted worldwide like there is for other weights and measures. Reading on I discovered how this had come about and that for military applications the NATO EPVAT standard had been adopted. However, the civilian shooter was still left with three different pressure measurements often expressed in unfamiliar units or in units that are easily confused. It is small wonder that confusion and sometimes danger are encountered reloading.
    Last edited by LVSteve; 12-29-2012 at 01:40 PM. Reason: Added .308 caveat
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    I know there was a limited supply made, but does anyone know of a collector or dealer that has 18 round MAS 49/56 magazines available? It would be great to have one in my collection.

    Did CAI stamp the .308 on the bottom of the MAS 49/56 magazines in order to reassure they would match the converted .308 rifles? Did they do anything different to the magazine?

    Also, I have searched and would like to find more information about French markings on their magazines. I have some without any markings and a few with faint marks?? Any pictures and information is appreciated.
    ----
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    7.62R
    7.62N
    .30-06
    ----




  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVSteve View Post
    An excellent example. There is a big clue on the Wikipedia page regarding the 40,000 figure being suspect. Their table reads as follows.

    9.0 g (139 gr) Balle "C" FMJ ----- 823 m/s (2,700 ft/s) ----3,038 J (2,241 ft·lbf)
    9.7 g (150 gr) SP --------------- 850 m/s (2,800 ft/s) ----3,550 J (2,620 ft·lbf)
    11.7 g (181 gr) SP -------------- 790 m/s (2,600 ft/s) ---- 3,650 J (2,690 ft·lbf)

    Test barrel length: 574 mm (22.6 inch) (A MAS 36 most likely)

    Look at the velocities for the 150gr and 180gr bullets. According to the Accurate Powder reloading data, a 150gr bullet requires 46.0gr of 2495 powder to achieve 2806fps for a pressure of 47,900 CUP. A 180gr pill requires 43.0gr of 2495 powder to achieve 2592fps for a pressure of 50,800 CUP. Accurate quote these velocities from a 24 inch barrel. It is pretty obvious that without some clever trick like a built in linear accelerator to augment muzzle velocity , the MAS 36 is not going to make similar velocities with a limit of 40,000 CUP.

    My first job was in high end metrology, and when I first started reading about reloading I was frankly appalled at the various measures of chamber pressure in common use, namely SAAMI CUP, SAAMI PSI and CIP piezo and the different methods used to arrive at the numbers. There is no standard accepted worldwide like there is for other weights and measures. Reading on I discovered how this had come about and that for military applications the NATO EPVAT standard had been adopted. However, the civilian shooter was still left with three different pressure measurements often expressed in unfamiliar units or in units that are easily confused. It is small wonder that confusion and sometimes danger are encountered reloading.
    This is excellent information. When we set up for reloading we did everything right. We pulled about three sample bullets, loaded bullets sans powder to test in the action, contacted the die maker and confirmed their numbers, and so forth. We made bore gages from new numbers, and slugged the bores I had with clay. I referred to the three major reloading magazines, and talked with them. I do not reload - I have it done in exchange for labor, but I cannot think of any other thing I could do to avoid this problem - and still it bites.

    As an aside, we actually watched a guy shooting in the back forty burst a rifle barrel when he tried to use 7.62x54mm Bulgarian surplus bullets reloaded into 308 cases - so we had every reason to be careful. You would think SAAMI had every reason to be a little more scientific about its numbers.
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  27. #27
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    One thing I need to add is the Accurate powder numbers above relate to .308. Cannot believe I left that out of my original post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7.5x54 fan View Post
    A box of Bear 308 is ~$8 for 20rnds; much cheaper than what I pay for 7.5 and about what I pay for a box of .45

    ...errr I just checked the price and see they're ~$12/box these days. Good thing I stockpiled up as often as I could.
    CtD's price for Bear .308fmj is now $29.19 a box(20). Exactly $21.00 more than what I paid for from them this past summer.

    This is unreal.

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