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Thread: 1909 Argentine Mauser in 30-06

  1. #1
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    Default 1909 Argentine Mauser in 30-06

    As the thread implies, I've just received a 1909 Argentine Mauser that a client wants a scope mounted to. It's got a 23" barrel and has all matching numbers but appears to be a sport model made for civilian use. Shorted stock and the barrel is marked: cal 30-06. The bolt is bent but will not allow clearence for a scope so would have to be re-molded to accomodate a scope mounted conventionally on the receiver. I would prefer to install a scout mount base to the rear sight. I only do restoration work and will be seeking the advice of a gunsmith tomorrow morning. I would like to know the value of this firearm.. I have found through research that there were indeed Argentines rebarreled to 30-06.. My work will consist of removing pitting that has taken hold on the barrel and installing an original butt plate that is missing.

    Another question I have though.... How much value will I be removing (if any) by continueing with this restoration?? If the gun is only worth a few hundred bucks, I see no problems but I have also seen where someone put a value of several thousand dollars on this rifle saying that is was "rare"...

    Help plz...
    GCA Member, NRA Life Member

  2. #2
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    Don't waste your time or your clients money on a rifle with an over-size bore. It will never shoot satisfactorily. These were imported and changed to 30-06 by reaming the chamber only. The bore size is still .313. The action is very desirable for a custom rifle and is worth the effort to remodel correctly. It currently has no collector value and is not worth any efforts to "restore". There is NO 1909 Mauser that is worth thousands.

  3. #3
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    Client probably ought to shoot it in 30-06 first before having any work done on it with the existing barrel. The client may find, as indicated by musketshooter, that it is not accurate enough to warrant further work. There is probably no real value to the rifle, as it is most likely just a cut down, and therefore ruined, model 1909. Even if it were complete, it would probably just be a wall-hanger because it has been reamed.

  4. #4
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    i appreciate the information.. The owner has shot this rifle many times but wants to add a scope to it.. The bore is immaculate and as a whole so is the rifle aside from some pitting midway down.. Thing is, it's all matching.. I didn't think it was just a bastard job with a re-reamed barrel chamber. Then again it could be rechambered and just stamped cal 30-06... I'll check the barrel for wear and ask the owner about accuracy...

    Thanks again guys..
    GCA Member, NRA Life Member

  5. #5
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    Custom dies [7.65/06] may make it doable.
    Bob

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by musketshooter View Post
    There is NO 1909 Mauser that is worth thousands.
    Not to you maybe, but different folks have different ideas of the value of things TO THEM. A std 1909 Arg that had been sanded, went for $2200 on GBkrs a few weeks ago. You'll pay several thousand $'s for a 1909 Arg sniper rifle with its correct Nedinsco scope!! Nice Sth American mausers may be plentiful where you are, but in some places they are very hard to find & prices are steadily climbing.
    Last edited by 308nutt; 03-04-2013 at 04:20 AM.
    Life is best viewed over the rim of a latte bowl.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1896swede View Post
    Custom dies [7.65/06] may make it doable.
    Bob
    I agree. I'll bet Lee can make a set of dies for this that will work. If it shoots decently with 30-06, it will probably shoot better with proper bullets.

    Not a lot of collector value, but if it shoots well and the owner really likes it, it still have considerable value to him. Maybe he grew up shooting it. Maybe his dad passed it down. Or maybe he simply bought it at a pawn shop and really likes it.
    Nothing worthwhile ever comes easily.

  8. #8
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    You can make your own dies to a point by mixing and matching the parts. So you can buy a 30-06 size die body from lee, and a 765 pin (if long enough??) to go into it, for example. I think that, and a 765 expander, and you would be able to load it. You may need a custom crimp die, though, if the 06 die cannot be dialed open enough to do it?

  9. #9
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    I used to have the same type of altered 1909 Argie. I could shoot flat based 30.06 bullets out of the rifle and get hunting quality accuracy out of the rifle.

    You CAN reload and crimp a .311-06 cartridge using a set of Lee 30.06 dies without modification. Here is where it get sticky. You need to watch your loads with this type of load BECAUSE since the chamber is 30.06 and you are putting an oversized bullet IN THE CHAMBER you can cause much increased chamber pressures. If you choose to keep the current barrel on the rifle I would STRONGLY suggest you take it to a competent smith and have him make a casting of the chamber to determine the neck diameter. What may need to be done is to have the neck of the chamber opened a couple thousandths of an inch. Doing so will make the rifle much more safe to work up loads in. If you choose to go that route I would also suggest you get a custom neck sizing die exclusively for that round to save your brass.

    Many suggest .311" and .312" bullets. I can say from my own experience that using .310 or .3105 bullets from russian surplus works just as well, depending on your bore of course.

    The scoped rifle is one of these modified rifles I dropped into a stock and mounted a scope. The other is one I built up from a bubba'd Argie stock. I shortened the stock and tried to make it look as military as possible. Both are options for this rifle. I will say, I got many more compliments over the military type rifle.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails rifle.jpg   101_1830.jpg  

  10. #10
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    As for value, only a 'as new' unaltered example would be worth over a 1000. Even if 'as new' its only worth 2-300 bucks after cut down. Only collectors have a real interest in them! These rifles were chamber reamed by the importer (Flaigs offered the service for couple bucks xtra). When you ream a 7.65 rifle with a 30-06 (.311 versus .308) reamer why would the throat get smaller and raise presure?
    They give accuracy acceptable for hunting. He would be better off buying a new in box Rem or Win. in my opinian. The days of cheap Mil Surp rifles and inexpensive labor are gone forever!

  11. #11
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    I see "custom built" former military Mausers of GB selling for thousands all the time. I suppose to the owners who spent that much on them, they're worth that much, but who else would want a "custom" rifle built for somebody else? If you want a super-expensive hunting rifle, there are plenty of makers out there who will sell you one, and it will be a name-brand rifle, not a butchered milsurp. My "store bought" deer rifles are a .243 Savage 110 and a Remington 700 .30-'06.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by lornedavis View Post
    As for value, only a 'as new' unaltered example would be worth over a 1000. Even if 'as new' its only worth 2-300 bucks after cut down. Only collectors have a real interest in them! These rifles were chamber reamed by the importer (Flaigs offered the service for couple bucks xtra). When you ream a 7.65 rifle with a 30-06 (.311 versus .308) reamer why would the throat get smaller and raise presure?
    They give accuracy acceptable for hunting. He would be better off buying a new in box Rem or Win. in my opinian. The days of cheap Mil Surp rifles and inexpensive labor are gone forever!
    If you are shooting 30.06 chamber pressure isn't an issue, if you are shooting the .311-06, THAT'S when you need to start worrying, if you load more than moderate loads.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Slade View Post
    If you are shooting 30.06 chamber pressure isn't an issue, if you are shooting the .311-06, THAT'S when you need to start worrying, if you load more than moderate loads.
    The point is the orig barrel and chamber were 311-312 already. How would shooting a 311 in a 311+ barrel ever get pressured up, its not squeezed anywhere down to 308, nowhere in the chamber was it ever 308 to begin with? I do not understand where it would be squeezed?

  14. #14
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    Here's a crazy idea. How about making an insert to permanently convert the chamber back to 7.65x54?

    7.65 Argentine is inexpensive and plentiful if one uses the Prvi ammo. And it's good for reloading.
    Nothing worthwhile ever comes easily.

  15. #15
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    Again, it isn't the .311 BARREL that is the issue. It IS the CHAMBER that is 30.06. 30.06 round is longer than the 7.65x53mm Argie round, which means the CHAMBER neck is going to be the 30.06 chamber which measures in at .3394" according to what I found. Now you stick a .312" bullet in a 30.06 neck and you make that cartridge neck .3434" in diameter.

    How is this not making any sense?

    DocAv told me:
    Neck crowding is when the neck of a case is expanded past its tolerance range for a chamber, by the use of oversized bullets, for that cartridge. Ie, if you use a .312 or .314 bullet, in a .30/06 neck, ( which was made for a .308 proijectile,) your .30/06 chamber neck, will have less "tolerance" with the expanded new neck diameter of the loaded case. Hence, the neck, on firing, cannot expand as much as it could with a .308, and so the neck gets "crowded" by the normal .30/06 chamber neck diameter. This loss of tolerance, can lead to sharp increases in pressure. ( we are talking of only a few Thou of an inch, here.)
    The larger diameter bore/grooves, with the Lower diameter bullet, will allow both "windage"( improper seal of gas by the projectile) and also inaccuracy, because of lower pressures behind the bullet. Flat based bullets perform better than boat tails, because the flat base will "bump up" to seal the slightly larger bore/grooves.

    To correct this problem, one can either "hone out" the neck to take a proper .314 plus neck thickness cartridge, allowing the correct tolerance between Cartridge and Chamber, or reduce the powder charge ( and thus the pressure.).

    Hope this clears the air on the problem.

    Regards,
    Doc AV
    AV Ballistics
    More info: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...entine-Mausers

  16. #16
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    Default Check to see if the 7.65 (.312) bullet will freely enter the fired.30/06 case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Slade View Post
    Again, it isn't the .311 BARREL that is the issue. It IS the CHAMBER that is 30.06. 30.06 round is longer than the 7.65x53mm Argie round, which means the CHAMBER neck is going to be the 30.06 chamber which measures in at .3394" according to what I found. Now you stick a .312" bullet in a 30.06 neck and you make that cartridge neck .3434" in diameter.

    How is this not making any sense?

    DocAv told me:


    More info: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...entine-Mausers
    I gree with Maximus Slade about the potential problem here. You do not want to fire any case/bullet/chamber combination where the bullet is not freely released to move forward upon firing. The bullets you intend to reload should slip freely into a fired case. Even case lengthening due to repeated sizing can cause high pressure if the bullet gets crimped at the case mouth. My concern for loading 7.65 bullets in a .30/06 case would also include those rounds ending up in the other .30/06's I own. Try .308 diameter Nosler Partitions or military .30/06 rounds with an open bullet base.

  17. #17
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    Another option open to you is to rebarrel the rifle. Now because this is an Argie rifle, the barrel has a different contour than do the k98s and vz24 rifles and such. The barrel is much more narrow at the rear sight then 98ks. You can purchase online a used Chilean Mauser barrel. It has the proper contour. It is made from M1903 barrels and is a 2 groove bore chambered in 7.62x51. Using that barrel and reworking the stock a little bit (I assume that it is a shortened Argie stock), you can make up a pretty sweet looking rifle. Attached are photos of a rifle I finished last night. Using the Chilean barrel, a tapped Argie action, and a bubbaed Argie stock I picked up along the way, I did a bit of wood work and mounted the barrel and scope myself. The bolt is one I picked up off Ebay.

    I hope this helps.

    Slade
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2013-03-14 10.45.43.jpg   2013-03-14 14.10.24.jpg   2013-03-14 14.10.32.jpg   2013-03-14 14.11.14.jpg  

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Slade View Post
    Attached are photos of a rifle I finished last night. Slade
    You made a nice job of it. I would blue the barrel just to finish it off.
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