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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
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    Old Europe
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    2,734

    Default Another Turkish early Kirikkale M 1940 rifle...

    The following just acquired Kirikkale M 1940 rifle seems interesting to me because of its probable rework or refurbishment history. The gun appears of ancient (arsenal) rebuilt and reblued, with excellent tight bore; that was probably done when it was renumbered.

    Receiver inscription (looks a bit shallow, parts of letters missing, as if lightly reground and reblued; the second K of K.KALE really looks like an X):

    T * C
    AS FA
    ANK (half moon) ARA
    K.KALE
    1940

    Serial number (double numbered):
    13972 on left receiver side (possibly overstamped on ground elder number, not legible; and with slightly larger numerals 9069 struck through on rear receiver bridge. Stamps on right receiver rail: small A over a much elongated H. Integral lip in front receiver ring to hold rear of hand guard.

    Rear sight asssembly:
    9069 on sight blade, 069 on the (somewhat roughly machined) slider, 39100 on tangent insert (= curve piece), 9069 on left side on rear sight base.

    Magazine box / trigger guard assembly:
    Single stock screws (no set screws), no sling swivel hole in front of trigger guard. Small B and K 8512 below front screw; unmarked bottom plate. Rear screwhead with tiny marks (half moon and K?); two tiny marks on magazine release button (B E ?).

    Bolt numbers and markings (a bit roughly machined and struck):
    B 1157 on upper bolt handle base, B on lower bolt handle base, B inside extractor, B on top of gas flange, 1157 on lower inside (before threads) of bolt shroud; B 21157 on striker; slanted T on right side of safety, small dot on left side of safety.

    Wood:
    A rather quickly grown, very light-coloured walnut, same type as a post-war French Kar98k svwMB of mine, appparently at the border to some darker sapwood. Wood has fine old polish and linseed oil finish, possibly during arsenal refurbishment (no bubba job). Handguard on right side of sight stamped 5; handguard stock channel inside rough and unmarked. Blued buttplate marked 3820 or 8820, tiny mark on lower screwhead.

    Best regards,
    Carcano

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    5,198

    Default Double Numbered Early Kirikkale Turk Mauser

    Dear Carcano,
    Your Turk K'kale is a Newly made (at Kirrikale factory) Turkish Mauser Rifle, variously described as a "Tufeki M938" (by Turkish Manuals,) but the Turks lumped ALL 7,9mm calibre "Mauser" rifles into the "M938" description...the "938 (Aka 1938) signified either the commencement of operations of the Factory at Kirikkale ( outer village/suburb of Ankara), or to commemorate the Death of Kemal Ataturk, who died in 1938. He had been responsible for the Policy of standardization of all Turkish Rifles to 7,9mm, as well as organising with ZB of Brno, the installation of manufacturing capacity within Turkey, so as to be self-sufficient in Rifle production. (From 1923 to 1938)

    The "Kirikkale Mausers were designed to be typically Turkish, whilst using the Czech/German Vz98/22 as a design start point, with one difference...the thread diameter of the barrel...was a "Small Shank" (.980"), the same as the M90, M93 and M1903 Turkish Mausers, and also the Gew88/05 Commission Rifles already in Turkish Inventory...making the manufacture of replacemenbt barrels easier...Only the Vz98/22 and the WW I Gew98s retained their original "Large shank" ( 1,010" ) barrels.
    Bolts, Trigger. sights and Triggerguard parts were all interchangeable with the Gew98 and the Vz98/22 rifles. Stocks were made on the M1903 Pattern, with small adjustm,ents for receiver profile, etc., so that a common Bayonet and bands could be used on all "Models" of 7,9mm rifles, of whatever original construction.

    First Pre-production runs (Machinery trials) began in 1939; and there are "Kirikkale" marked rifles with 1939 dates....(and Not on my Parallax Survey of Turkish Serial Numbers).

    At the time, the serialling system was not finalised, and so the First batches of rifgles were serialled on the rear bridge(like the earlier M90, M93 and M03 refurbishments...and in 1940, it was decided (from my observations of surveyed and personal serial numbers) to switch to a separate serial series, and stamp these in the normal ( on Receiver ring) place foir serial numbers. Thus the early 39 and early 1940 made rifles will have "double" serialling.
    The "Number" for survey purposes is the Left receiver/Rear sight/Barrel number;

    As in many Turkish rifles, barrels/rear sights are mismatched to receivers (it seems Turk armourers considered both barrels and receivers "non-fixed" parts, seeing as so many mixed matches are found between these two major parts....)


    The appearance of the letter "B" on many Turk Kirikkale Rifle Parts signifies that these parts have been made by the Kirikkale Factory, and not "scrounged" from Gew98 or Vz98/22, or even earlier Turkish Mausers.It is also a quick indication that say, the Bolt is NOT compatible with a '903 or '93 Marked receiver (bolts here of intermediate Mauser Length, rather than the standard length M98 Bolt, which the K'Kale uses.
    Crescent moons denote Turkish Property (both Ottoman and Republic), so small parts such as screws could be either Pre WW I or Post 1938...Mauser screws being basically interchangeable throughout the M93, 03 etc series.

    The 13xxx number fits in my survey for Early 1940 production, and it seems the rifle may still be Matching, to a degree...the barrel and rear sight parts marked "9069" match the receiver ( also bridge marked 9069) whilst some other parts are mixed.

    Stocks were made of what suitable wood was available... Turkey supplied a lot of Circassian Walnut (a variety, not a region) to other countries for gunstock manufacture, as well as its own; but experience with other timbers after WW I would account to the use of Birch/Beech/ other types of Timber more readily available to the Gun trade.
    In any case, Turk Gunstocks are always well matured and made, even if the use during many years of "peacetime" training can leave the condition a bit poor.

    A stock-standard 1940-46 Kirikkale Product (my survey estimates at least 250,000 rifles of this model were manufactured from new in this period, along with about 15,000 K'kale "Short rifles" (1944-46); not bad going, in the middle of WW II, essentially cut off from the rest of the neutral world, in between two big belligerants (the German Axis to the North, the Allies to the south, and Russia to the East. As well, the ASFA (Askeri Fabrikalar, or Military Factories Administration) continued converting and refurbishing Gew98s, Gew88s, and M1903s to the unified format adopted in 1929/30, for unification on 7,9mm ammuntion.

    regards,
    Aufwiedersehen,

    Doc AV
    AV Ballistics
    Australia.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Old Europe
    Posts
    2,734

    Default Turkish stockwoods?

    Dear DocAV, many thanks for your very extensive answer.

    One preliminary question, if I may:
    Quote Originally Posted by DocAV View Post
    Stocks were made of what suitable wood was available... Turkey supplied a lot of Circassian Walnut (a variety, not a region) to other countries for gunstock manufacture, as well as its own; but experience with other timbers after WW I would account to the use of Birch/Beech/ other types of Timber more readily available to the Gun trade.
    I have only seen walnut and beech on Turkish military stocks. Have you observed any others, and if so, which?

    Thanks,
    Carcano

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    5,198

    Default Other wood on Turks

    My reference to "Other woods" is due to the fact that some Turk rifles (esp. the 1948 Orman Berthiers) have woods I could not readily identify, either due to dirty state, rough grain, or heavy oiling. I would say that Walnut and Beech are the most common.
    I have seen some stocks that look like Yugoslav M24/47 type wood, with the heavy grain and rough feel.

    Regards,
    Doc AV
    AV Ballistics.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Denham Springs LA.
    Posts
    1,175

    Default

    Doc
    You must be the Mac Daddy of the Turkish rifles. All I can say about your post here is WOW!
    I picked up my first Turk about 6 years ago and it sat almost untouched until last year. It is a K-Kale 1944. I started reading about Turkish riflea and just srarted to fall in love with them I now have a K-Kale 1945 sitting next to the 44 and Just bought a 1943 form a friend in AZ. that I will pick up this summer when I go on vacation.
    I'm going to a Surplus Rifle shoot this weekend and a frien is bringing a Turk short rifle (?) that I may buy if it looks good.
    Thanks for the info.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1

    Default Newbie Question

    Hi all!

    Total newbie and gun virgin here. I have a rifle that's nearly identical to the description left here by Carcano, except that the date on mine is 1939.

    I have no knowledge of rifles, so I can't report all the letters and numbers by any means that would make sense to anyone, but I'd love to know what this gun's all about.

    My father's friend, Bill, gave my brother and me a rifle each when we were just tikes (about 11 and 12 years old). His is from the 1910s, and mine from 1939 (as I said). Bill told us, "These are German Mausers. Take care of them and, if you decide to shoot 'em, you might wanna seal your feet in cement first."

    Boy, was he right! I shot the thing when I was about 13, and I nearly got airborne! It kicks like an angry mule...but I'm proud to say, I blasted that target for all it was worth. The folks still laugh about how my hair flew forward (okay, I was a little hippy...I admit it!), and about the shocked look on my face. LOL

    Anywho, does anyone have any advice about how I can get more information about this specific rifle? Its history, manufacure, value, lineage, etc.? I live in the San Francisco Bay Area now, and I don't think there are many gun shows up here (except a few shoot outs in Oakland now and then, but I don't think those really count).

    Much obliged.

    - Sheldon
    Last edited by BayAreaGuy; 07-04-2008 at 01:06 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Here & There
    Posts
    1,010

    Default

    A good site for general info is www.turkishmauser.com

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    lower hudson valley,NY
    Posts
    785

    Default

    Send us pictures! especially of the receiver(Top).We'll quickly tell you what you've got.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    1,620

    Default

    The website is actually: www.turkmauser.com
    כד יְבָרֶכְךָ יְהוָה, וְיִשְׁמְרֶךָ. The LORD bless thee, and keep thee;
    כה יָאֵר יְהוָה פָּנָיו אֵלֶיךָ, וִיחֻנֶּךָּ. The LORD make His face to shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee;
    כו יִשָּׂא יְהוָה פָּנָיו אֵלֶיךָ, וְיָשֵׂם לְךָ שָׁלוֹם. The LORD lift up His countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Mississippi Delta
    Posts
    10,073

    Default

    i love the smell of coffee and a good history lesson in the morning..... thanks, Doc.... carcano, how about a pic.
    " Dude with a pencil is worse than a cat with a machinegun"... Bo Diddley

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