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  1. #1
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    Default Who made this German .22 Target Pistol?

    I have had this for a bunch of years but never found much information on it. I got it out of the safe recently and have been wondering about it again. There are no makers markings on it that I can tell, just the German proofs or other marks. Does anybody have any ideas?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 100_3978.jpg   100_3979.jpg   100_3983.jpg   100_3984.jpg   100_3985.jpg  

  2. #2
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    Can't help with a maker, as there are no maker's marks, but the gun was proofed to shoot 0.3 grams of NGP m/71 - that's Neues Gewehr Pulver - a fine rifle powder developed by the German Army of the time. The projectile is a 27.7gr bullet - 1.8grams. DRMS is a sub-variant of DGRM - the number along with it - 20792 - has been noted on numerous occasions on various types of gun and is said to a particular mnufacturer - I don't know who that might be.

    You might find something like it in Tom Rowe's books 'Alte Scheibenwaffen' [old target-shooting weapons] - Vol III deals with handguns of this type, usually made by the likes of Tell and Puff.

    Hope that is of some use.

    tac
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  3. #3
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    Thanks for that bit of information! Your comment about the fine rifle powder developed by the German Army "of the time" raises another question. I had assumed, based on the proof marks and such, that this was a prewar made pistol, perhaps earlier. If I recall from research I did years ago when I acquired it, some of the proofs show up in some of my books that indicate East German manufacture but I think the technology/style of the pistol predates that era. What was the era of the Neues Gewehr Pulver?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazzer View Post
    Thanks for that bit of information! Your comment about the fine rifle powder developed by the German Army "of the time" raises another question. I had assumed, based on the proof marks and such, that this was a prewar made pistol, perhaps earlier. If I recall from research I did years ago when I acquired it, some of the proofs show up in some of my books that indicate East German manufacture but I think the technology/style of the pistol predates that era. What was the era of the Neues Gewehr Pulver?
    Uh, sorry, I thought it was evident from the figures - the powder - an improved version of black powder - was developed for the then-new Mauser Model of 1871/84. So it is MUCH earlier than your supposition. The BUG marks came into use in the Proof Laws of 1891, BTW, so your lovely old pistol [greatly admired here], is from around that time, since it is chambered for an early continental version of the .22 rimfire cartridge. Note that the .22RF has been around a very long time - the original US load was 5gr of fine BP and a 29gr lead bullet. I should have mentioned that the cartridge load in YOUR pistol was 5.1gr of this NGP m/71and a 27.7gr bullet - not a mile away in configuration I think you'll agree.

    The .22LR was standardised back then in 1887, but shooting a 40gr bullet instead, so your gun is proofed AFTER 1891, but proofed for a cartridge in use BEFORE that date, in Germany at any event. If your gun had been proofed in either Zella-Mehlis or Suhl, both in the Eastern part of Germany, it would have been stamped either interlaced ZM or the word SUHL. You say that there are no such marks, so really, we are lost.

    I have no idea where your information came from regarding the manufacture of this pistol in so-called East Germany - a place that had no existence before 1945. None of the markings on this pistol relate to gun proof in the DDR, as Eastern Germany was called after WW2. In any case, the technology is that of the late 19th century, not any part of the twentieth. Perhaps the stag/deer emblem on the grips might offer a clue to a maker? Hirsch, perhaps?
    I am an international Gunboards patron

  5. #5
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    You have an Offizierspistole Model 1893 made by Scharfenberg from Zella Mehlis in Germany. Your pistol was most likely proofed in Suhl as they used the NGP mark from 1891 till 1936/39 when they started using nazi style proofmarks. They did NOT always stamp their weapons with the name 'SUHL' or 'ZM' (Zella-Mehlis). Suhl proofhouse used a gauge numbering system and the NGP M/71 stamp, whereas Zella Mehlis used the metric system e.g. '5,2 mm' or '5,3 mm'. BTW it shows the regular 1,2 gr and not 1,3 gr N.G.P - as you stated. Made between 1893 and 1939. For more information you can contact me. Please look underneath the barrel for any markings.. most probably a .22 short caliber (blackpowder!). The black Stag grips were an extra which could be ordered with the pistol! Great stuff..

  6. #6
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    Default

    Thanks for all the information!
    On the bottom of the barrel immediately in front of the pivot point are the following marks;

    Crown over G
    B over crown over U
    611

    Behind the pivot point on the bottom of the barrel and only visible when the action is open is large numeral 8

    The grips on this are hard rubber - stag would have been nice!

  7. #7
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    Default

    It may look like an officer pistol of 1893, but it was also sold by Akah in their 1928 catalog as a push-button, drop-barrel target pistol. The one illustrated even features the hard rubber grips with the running deer. Interesting though, the caliber is identified as 6mm (Winchester .22). The shorter barrel model had a single trigger and auto-extractor. A more expensive longer barrel same caliber had set triggers. They were considered lesser quality than the Tell drop block target pistols and were priced accordingly.

  8. #8
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    The 'Offiziers Model' of 1893 was sold by quite a few of the larger postoder companies from around 1890's till the start of WWII. You can actually see if the pistol was made by Scharfenberg as there should be a letter "S" stamped in the frame underneath the left staghead handgrip. The number 611 indicates the caliber .22 short in blackpowder (the NGP markings proof that it was BP) I believe they were also sold by the US postodercompany Stoeger. They came with many different finishings - from blued or blackened steel to chromed and highly polished finishes. These pistols were made with different barrel lenghts, different types of grips and sights, single of doubles set triggers and from 4mm flobert till 8mm centre fire.. They continued to makes these pistols till the start of the war. Just after the war the company went bancrupt or seized to exict as the Russian occupiers disbanded most of the small factories after 1946, than shipped most of the machinary back to Russia for the productions of other goods..

  9. #9
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    The maker is Scharfenberg, the gun is called "Scheibenpistole Caver" ("Target pistol Caver"). I found this short description of a similar gun on the website of an auction from May 2007 (http://www.hermann-historica-archiv....db=kat52_S.txt)

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Scheibenpistole.JPG 
Views:	14 
Size:	52.1 KB 
ID:	773481

    Translation of the German text:

    Lot No. 815
    Target pistol Caver (Scharfenberg) - Germany
    Cal. .22lr, No. 3. Octagonal barrel, length 205 mm, top-break barrel. Proof marks Crown/"BUG"/"611. (5 mm)". On the right side of the frame "D.R.M.S.20792" (D.R.M.S. means "Deutscher Reichsmusterschutz" - i.e. "Imperial German Trademark Registration"). No further markings. Barrel blueing thin and stained. Grip piece shows traces of hardening process. Black hard rubber grip pads repaired. Trademark registration No. 20792 has been given to Georg Scharfenberg in 1893. Rare.
    Firearms licence needed.
    Condition: II-III Reserve: 150 Euros Sold for: 260 Euros
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

  10. #10
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    Default Offizier Pistole

    Dear 7x57,

    Great that you mentioned you found the website of Herman Historica! They have a huge amount of photographs and brief descriptions of various firearms and antiques. Good source. But Herman H. named their example 'Schiebenpistole Caver' just like in the catalog of ALFA from 1911, or 'Hochfeine Offiziers - Scheibenpistole' by August Stukenbrok or 'Knopfdruck Scheibenpistolen' D.R.G.M. by AKAH in 1908 etc etc.. The official name is 'Offizier-Pistole' by Scharfenberg self!

    Attachment 773559Attachment 773560Attachment 773561Attachment 773562


    I have written an article on this pistol and its maker for the Dutch Arms Collectors Assoc. which I will translate - when I have time. I will post a link on this thread for those who are interested.

    Cheers, Dafas


    Quote Originally Posted by 7x57 View Post
    The maker is Scharfenberg, the gun is called "Scheibenpistole Caver" ("Target pistol Caver"). I found this short description of a similar gun on the website of an auction from May 2007 (http://www.hermann-historica-archiv....db=kat52_S.txt)

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Scheibenpistole.JPG 
Views:	14 
Size:	52.1 KB 
ID:	773481

    Translation of the German text:

    Lot No. 815
    Target pistol Caver (Scharfenberg) - Germany
    Cal. .22lr, No. 3. Octagonal barrel, length 205 mm, top-break barrel. Proof marks Crown/"BUG"/"611. (5 mm)". On the right side of the frame "D.R.M.S.20792" (D.R.M.S. means "Deutscher Reichsmusterschutz" - i.e. "Imperial German Trademark Registration"). No further markings. Barrel blueing thin and stained. Grip piece shows traces of hardening process. Black hard rubber grip pads repaired. Trademark registration No. 20792 has been given to Georg Scharfenberg in 1893. Rare.
    Firearms licence needed.
    Condition: II-III Reserve: 150 Euros Sold for: 260 Euros

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