did they ever use the model 1866 sword bayonet during the Indian Wars?
did they ever use the model 1866 sword bayonet during the Indian Wars?
Last edited by BOLO; 03-01-2008 at 01:37 PM.
dont think the US ever used the the Chassepote rifle si very unlikely despite what sellers say - I've even seen them stated as civil
No. While blade type bayonets had a brief history during the American Civil War ( Dahlgren Bowie bayonet, Plymouth Rifle bayonet,, Zouave bayonet, Missipppi Rifle bayonet, 1855 Springfield Rifle bayonet and a few others ) none of them made it as Federal issue in the post-Civil War period through 1891 or so. The socket bayonet ruled during the so-called .45-70 era until the ramrod bayonet was introduced on the last of the Trapdoor Springfields in the very late 1880s. The adoption of the M1892 Springfield Krag rifle and its knife blade bayonet ended socket bayonet use as Federal issue. There may have been some minor exceptions with state militias. The so-called yataghan ( spelling may be incorrect ) recurved blade style such as found on the popular 1866 Chassepot was actually a very popular blade type around the world although the blade profile seems to have gotten it's continental ( European ) start in the 1840s as introduced by the French. I have a personal liking for the longer, recurved bladed bayonets of the Franco-Prussian War and will snap up any maker or country of origin specimens I can find. Hope this general history is useful. I am sure others will chime in with other information or correct any gross errors I may have made. Best regards, Joe
I personally like the sword bayonets, they have several variations from different countries
I have the French M1842, the M1866, M1874
the Turk M1874 Peabody [has a extra thick heavy blade]
I like them also although I only own one. All the locals here must believe the brass is gold,the prices are insane.
Depends on what period of the "Indian wars" you mean.
Yes they are not scarce ,but some think that since the are old they are worth alot. I know of four in an area shop, they are nothing special, priced $150 to $180.
Mine has a non-matching scabbard, but it is not a common maker.
Bolo, Let me see if I can help you out here as there still seems to be some confusion. The American Indians and the settlers and military had squabbles from the very earliest days of this country's beginnings until the 1890s. The so called Indian Wars period usually that span of time from 1866 to 1891. This period saw conflicts with the so-called Western or Southwestern Indians most commonly represented by The various subgroupings of the Sioux ( who raised a small bit of Caine in Wisconsin and Minnesota while most federal and state troops were busy with our Civil War ) and the various subgroups of the Apache. They were not the only ones in the " Indian Wars " of course as at one time or another The Cheyenne, Crow, Modocs and Nez Perce and some others gave westward expanding white folks a lot of trouble.
During the Civil War era the Union and Confederate military used a wide variety of domestic arsenal weapons as well as a vast quantity of imported types due to the inability of the arsenals to quickly produce the standard weapons required to meet the ever growing need. At the end of the war vast stocks of both foreign and domestic arms and equipment were sold off at various times to both individuals and to dealers. Much of this military materiel in the hands of westward immigrating individuals saw hard use. It was also used as trade stock to Indians ( legally by the way ).
The US regular military establishment that saw service in the " Indian Wars " from 1866 through 1891 did not use or have in stores any foreign military arms. Their principal long arms were the various versions of the Allin system conversion of Civil War muskets, purpose built Allin system arms such as the 1870 .50 caliber Springfield rifles ( and carbines ) and in 1873 the changeover to the .45 caliber " Trapdoor " Springfields whose military career ended as active combat arms in the hands of state troops in 1898. While it is possible that some state units may have retained their muskets from Civil War days ( or various breechloading carbines if cavalry ) most of them upgraded to breechloaders rather quickly. To the best of my knowledge no state units retained foreign made rifles after the Civil War.
Some of us are old enough to have purchased weapons and equipment from the legendary Bannerman's Island and a wide variety of foreign and domestic military arms and equipment could be had in wide variety of condtions and of course later dealers such as Ray Riling, Westchester Trading, Golden State Arms, Ye Olde Hunter imported a staggering array of military firearms during the late 40s, the 50s and 60s ( some call these decades the Golden Age of Collecting ). As a kid in the 1950s ( I was born in 1942 ) I remember 1866 Chassepot bayonets and scabbard being sold for $1.00, nice condition WW2 German helmets could be had for $5.00, a good " shooter " 1873 Springfield could be had for $40.00. The presence of foreign arms in the US owes more to the large number of mporter/dealers than to any official government use of foreign arms.
As for why such bayonets as the 1866 Chassepot are advertised as " Indian Wars " is anyone's guess. Attach some sort of history to a weapon and you can raise the price and who cares if it never left the arsenal? Sellers can be just as misinformed as the next guy which is why the gunboards is such a fantastic site-there are many people here who have years and years of experience and who have learned from it and now pass it on. Anyway this has been a long winded response but hopefully it has been helpful to you. And if it is of any help I am turning 66 at the end of this month and am still learning about collecting and about history. It has been one heck of a ride. Best Regards, Joe
Last edited by old-smithy; 03-02-2008 at 10:28 PM.
Question, that might be pertinent. Didn't the "Yataghan" or however it's spelled bayonets like that also get made for Rolling Blocks? Mebbe there's some screwed up correlation between the large-bore BPCR Remington Rolling Blocks being lumped in with Sharps and Trapdoor rifles, and the bayos coming along for the ride in dealers' minds?
Then again, maybe it's just yet another incoherent gunshow sales-pitch.
Vaarok, You have made a good observation and it could very well be that the blade type is being mixed in with what Remingtons used. I am sure that history is rather shabbily misused to influence a sale now and then. Obviously there is a signifcant variety of yataghan blade types and the style was immensly popular for years. I am still trying to figure out German blade types. Best regards, Joe
There are Yataghan blades for the Remingtons, you will find most of these do not have a chamfered pommel slot, or the cut out in the muzzle ring. there were large numbers of these made for Egypt including ones for Enfield 303's laots of early US rifles, Belgian, Italian, SPanish, most ssouth american countries used them - Brazil made the last with their 1904 pattern. It is a great blade style to collect, lots of variations, just not a lot of information
If muzzlering is 18 mm or a little bit larger and depth of slot is 5 mm deep, the yathagan is made for a Remington RB wether or not it has the second cut out and camfered slot.
Chassepot yathagans has a muzzlering of 17,5 mm and a 3,5 mm. depth of slot.
Carl! Are yoy sure about circled P for Brescia?
Sorry Bolo , we seem to have Hijacked your thread.
The Circle P above has a 18.5mm ring,slot is 5mm deep.
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I don't fantasize on the happiness of being poor.
I don't always think less is more.