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  1. #1
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    Default 1918 Remington M91. Japanese Influence? Pic Heavy.

    I was lucky enough to have some good guys I know and see at the gun shows local drop me a line. They sounded pretty excited on the phone, and when I realized what it was they had, I became excited about the situation as well.

    1918 Remington. No parts match the barrel shank serial. However, the bolt is all Remington matched, and the bolt body and cocking knob matches itself. Butt is Remington marked, and the floor plate looks to be a Remington part, but I can't find a Remington stamp on it. The magwell/trigger guard is from a 91/30s era Izhevsk. Trigger, and one piece interrupter also Remington marked. Barrel bands, and nose cap also Remington marked. Rear sight and spring also Remington marked. Japanese writing in the stock, butt location only with a three digit number. Bore is dirty, but has strong lands and grooves and shows excellent with a bullet test.

    Whoever, and whenever, either tried to piece back a single shot Japanese modification, but I find no evidence of any floor plate fastened or attached to the bottom of the receiver or somewhere whatever other mag well was connected, and removed in favor of this one. Someone also tried to toss in a machine screw as evident in the pics. I had an appropriate action screw around, so it now resides in the correct hole. Threads were fine, must have been a poor quality machine screw.

    The handguard looks walnut anyways. It's got that darker wood stock look like Remington stocks do. The circular stock cartouche under the numbers on the butt, if closely examined, looks like a 1918 date. Hard to see, but it looks that way. Could that be a Remington stock cartouche and whoever sanded, or else it looks like administered some shellac like substance on it?
    Well here are a ton of pics, dissect and disseminate.



















































    Last edited by Iron_Colonel; 06-06-2013 at 09:06 PM.

  2. #2
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    Score! It is quite possible that it was never converted to the single shot configuration. The Japanese did capture 4 box cars full of American Mosins on the Amur Railroad in 1920, and only 5900 were returned; and that is just one instance. With the relative low numbers of these rifles to ever turn up, it is hard to say what different configurations may be out there.
    Last edited by clayshooter2; 06-06-2013 at 12:03 AM.
    King Eight Eggs

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  3. #3
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    Very nice!!

  4. #4
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    Dec 1969
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    The dry side of WA State
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    I like it! Rare rifle!

    Pahtu.

  5. #5
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    Dec 2007
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    Claremore, Oklahoma
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    Very Cool

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
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    Cool. You might want to post on the Firearms of the Rising Sun board for a good translation of the Japanese stamp. I don't know Japanese per se but a Korean reading of the characters suggests a school of law or administration.
    Last edited by munrod; 06-06-2013 at 05:42 AM.
    "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
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  7. #7
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    Here's a good link for you, IC. Scroll through, and possibly locate the training school.

    http://www.gunboards.com/sites/banza...ainer_markings

    And here are a couple of more recent topics.

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...light=northern

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...light=northern


    And I also quoted your first post, for those who have narrow computer screens. That way, the annoying AdChoices box doesn't eat half of the pictures.


    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Colonel View Post
    I was lucky enough to have some good guys I know and see at the gun shows local drop me a line. They sounded pretty excited on the phone, and when I realized what it was they had, I became excited about the situation as well.

    1918 Remington. No parts match the barrel shank serial. However, the bolt is all Remington matched, and the bolt body and cocking knob matches itself. Butt is Remington marked, and the floor plate looks to be a Remington part, but I can't find a Remington stamp on it. The magwell/trigger guard is from a 91/30s era Izhevsk. Trigger, and one piece interrupter also Remington marked. Barrel bands, and nose cap also Remington marked. Rear sight and spring also Remington marked. Japanese writing in the stock, butt location only with a three digit number. Bore is dirty, but has strong lands and grooves and shows excellent with a bullet test.

    Whoever, and whenever, either tried to piece back a single shot Japanese modification, but I find no evidence of any floor plate fastened or attached to the bottom of the receiver or somewhere whatever other mag well was connected, and removed in favor of this one. Someone also tried to toss in a machine screw as evident in the pics. I had an appropriate action screw around, so it now resides in the correct hole. Threads were fine, must have been a poor quality machine screw.

    The handguard looks walnut anyways. It's got that darker wood stock look like Remington stocks do. The circular stock cartouche under the numbers on the butt, if closely examined, looks like a 1918 date. Hard to see, but it looks that way. Could that be a Remington stock cartouche and whoever sanded, or else it looks like administered some shellac like substance on it?
    Well here are a ton of pics, dissect and disseminate.




















































  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
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    666

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    martin08's site nails it. It's "Hosei Daigakku" (Hosei University) i.e. university of law and politics
    "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
    Unknown, often attributed to Mark Twain

  9. #9
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    That is a very nice rifle with interesting features. Great photo presentation, Iron Colonel. It appears from your posts that you are accumulating a very nice Mosin collection. Congratulations on money well spent.

  10. #10
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    Thanks for the link Martin. I searched for about a half hour for the link last night, and finally tracked it down after I posted the rifle and identified the mark. I wish there was a better way to determine the path of travel of this rifle.

    Does someone have access to any production numbers for the serial range of this rifle, and it's contract status with the Russians? Or could this have been one that went to Northern Russia, and got left behind as mentioned in a previous post?

  11. #11
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    I_C- your REM was used as a trainer by Hosei University per the kanji cartouche, rack #212. The Hosei trainers I have seen were modified to be single shot rifles, although that is observation, not a definitive statement. May I add it to my survey? Is the REM cartouche dated 1918? It was shipped to Vladivostok before being taken to Japan in 1922. Nice find! southridge

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Colonel View Post
    Thanks for the link Martin. I searched for about a half hour for the link last night, and finally tracked it down after I posted the rifle and identified the mark. I wish there was a better way to determine the path of travel of this rifle.

    Does someone have access to any production numbers for the serial range of this rifle, and it's contract status with the Russians? Or could this have been one that went to Northern Russia, and got left behind as mentioned in a previous post?
    This one was made after the Russians defaulted on the contract, so it is certainly a US Surcharged production.

    If you have a chance, southridge, could you post some general stats/findings on the survey? Thanks.

  13. #13
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    Yes, please do add it to the survey. I haven't had a chance to dig up the other thread and put this in it yet. But feel free. The cartouche looks like a 1918, and it does look suspiciously Remington, but the color of the stock throws me off a little. It looks like someone put some shellac or something on it at some point. But, if it were a Remington stock, I'd think the action might fit better. The screws tighten just fine, but it just seems off. And it looks like when the barreled action was removed from the stock, it hit the ground or something and gouged the edge of the top part of the tang. Who knows, but many Mosin mysteries associated with this thing.

    As far as it being used as a trainer, and having what appears to be a Remington floor plate, how does a 91/30 era Izhevsk mag well/trigger guard get stuck on it? Japanese mod, or someone attempting to convert it back to condition normal? I didn't see any remnance of unfastening of a solder or weld on the receiver.

  14. #14
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    I-C - thanks, will do. As to its variations, that's the mystery of the Mosin Nagant; worth many hours over many beers dreaming up reasons (one might actually be right!!). Some of those rifles have more frequent flyer miles than I do - and many ports of call. Most of the Hosei U. rifles I have seen are in very good condition, and the Japanese markings are always in the same place - partially over the original REM cartouche. Also, every one I have observed has the single shot conversion. southridge

  15. #15
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    Default preliminary report on japanese trainers

    Here is a preliminary report on the investigation into USmanufactured Mosin Nagants converted to Japanese trainers:

    1917 Remington, 25; of those, 14 were single shotconversions, 6 retained their original box magazine, 5 were not described, with10 marked to Meiji University, 5 marked to Hosei University, and the balanceeither other schools or not identified. 1 reported with bayonet lug added. 13of them were in the US Contract serial number range

    1918 Remington, 7: of those 5 were single shotconversions, none reported with original box magazine. 2 were marked to Meiji University,3 to Hosei University and 2 to others or unknown. 1reported with bayonet lug added.

    1915 New England Westinghouse, 2: 1 was a singleshot, the other unknown. No identifiable markings reported.

    Definitions: US manufactured refers to all Remingtonand New England Westinghouse rifles made. US Contract refers only to those REMand NEW rifles purchased by the US Government to be used for statesidetraining. None were supplied to US Intervention Forces in either North Russiaor Siberia.

    Remarks: first, thanks to you all for responding.Hopefully these initial observations will help others to respond, as themajority reported were from one member who has been collecting this data forsome years, but with a different approach than mine; therefore, some of theinfo Id like to see is missing. Information as to originality of stocks,import info and bayonet lug modifications is weak. Thanks again for all thecooperation.

    southridge

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Colonel View Post

    As far as it being used as a trainer, and having what appears to be a Remington floor plate, how does a 91/30 era Izhevsk mag well/trigger guard get stuck on it?
    Almost assuredly a stateside alteration. None of the other examples that I have observed have had any M91/30 parts.

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