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  1. #1
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    Default Lee Harvey Oswald's Carcano use - the "Kennedy rifle"

    The topic has come up in the Second Forum repeatedly, and usually with good knowledge. I shall try to assemble some of the more noteworthy contributions.

    * * *

    Tembo
    Posted - 11/18/2003 : 8:08:53 PM
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    I think there is a chance this may be of some interest to the regular's on this forum. Recently the History Channel did an hour on the guns of infamous historical characters and finished with a good segment on Oswald's 6.5 '38 Carcano short rifle ser.no. C2766. I was already more or less convinced that the notion that C2766 was a 'black' painted rifle formerly belonging to Il Duce's private guard was incorrect, but this program was the clincher. There were a couple of very clear, well lit shots of the stock, not held long, but long enough, to be certain that C2766 had a garden variety, sort of beat up(the usual handling marks, good honest wear etc.), brown wood(walnut?) milsurp stock. Just like thousands of others. Definitely not painted black. A lab tech who was at the crime scene,said the stock was so rough he couldn't get any decent fingerprints off it. In certain light the stock did look shiny and very dark, almost as though it was painted. But it is only a trick of the light.
    I am now completely convinced that it definitely was a garden variety milsurp.



    rbjr
    Posted - 11/18/2003 : 10:36:06 PM
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    The thing that has always bothered me about the assasination is that Oswald would had to have been an unbelievable shot. Three shots on a moving target in just a few seconds with a POS rifle,scope and ammo.

    I wonder what really happened.

    I can't hardly watch the Zapruder tape anymore.



    Dino in Reno
    Posted - 11/18/2003 : 11:14:22 PM
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    Two of the three were not "POS". The ammo was from a major U.S. maker, see the "Odd 6.5 Carcano ammo in box's" thread. The ammo was good.

    The rifle, well, with good ammo the Carcano is as accurate as any other military rifle. One of my carbines will give 1.25" five shot groups (one flyer or would have been .75") at 50 yards with iron sights.

    The scope, that was a POS :-) , and the mount was worse from what I have heard.

    As to the difficulty of the shots, hard but not out of possibility. It has been reenacted several times that I have read of, and was repeated during the tests. I don't think there was a shot longer than 150 yards, but I am not a buff of this event, I could very well be wrong.

    Even crazed idiots get "lucky". For one of the closest to reality looks at Oswald try to catch the two part "Quantum Leap" show. I have been told by a real buff of this event that it was the closest to what he thought Oswald was like.



    Tembo
    Posted - 11/19/2003 : 12:43:01 AM
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    -Oswald used Winchester ammo.
    -He was a decent, Marine trained shot, very likely better than most civilians.
    -He practised with the rifle, so he knew his equipment.
    -He had a little over 8 seconds to shoot the second and 3rd shot at a final distance of only 85 yds. (The first shot hit a twig or leaf.)
    -For a decent shot, the whole exercise is, maybe not a piece of cake, but it hardly qualifies as fancy shooting. Almost anyone with a little practice could pull it off.

    True the scope and mount are crappy, but they are plenty good enough for this job. I've got the identical rig - except for the ammo - and believe me, he definitely could have done it. I'm not saying he did it, or did it alone, or anything beyond the simple statement that the shooting was almost certainly within his capability with the equipment he had.



    MarkRKelley
    Posted - 11/19/2003 : 08:14:39 AM
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    I live 35 miles north of Dealey Plaza. I was 8 years old at the time and attending Catholic school in Texas. Needless to say, with all the commotion at school, it is a day I will long remember.

    That having been said, Dear God in Heaven I am sooooo tired of the non-stop Kennedy/Oswald/LBJ/grassy knoll stuff on the tube. Yes, I know, I don't have to watch. And I don't. We have likely heard the truth on the shooting, but it is mixed in with so much other junk and supposition that we can't pick it out.

    Personally, I think Oswald did shoot from the TSBD. However, I personally believe that the massive head wound was from a shooter on the grassy knoll. Oswald was the useful idiot shooter who was easy to catch. The police tagged him as the guilty one and the press got wrapped up in the event. Meanwhile, the "others" got away.



    Papa G
    Posted - 11/19/2003 : 11:05:28 AM
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    what i want to know is what happened to the ammo. there were 3 fired cases and one in the chamber. and no other rounds were found or empty boxes.

    his revolver held a mix of makers. why was that.

    no one to my knowledge has looked into this aspect of the case.



    daverosurp1
    Posted - 11/20/2003 : 09:20:04 AM
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    If you ever want to know how hard of a shot it was, I would recommend going to Dallas and seeing the sight first hand. I was amazed at how small the area/length of shot was. kennedy may have been a moving target, but from what I remember, he was moving away from the building. If you've ever been bird hunting, you know that makes for an easier shot. I've owned a 91TS for well over 15 years now, but just recently picked up a M38 (in 6.5) dated 1940 and made by Terni. I know we all get tired of hearing/talking about the subject, but its still neat to have folks over and show them the M38 and say....."this is the type of rifle Kennedy was supposedly shot with".



    reddog
    Posted - 11/20/2003 : 12:35:54 PM
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    daverosurp1,
    I agree about the shots being not far away, in fact, I was shocked at the closeness they were when viewing them first hand. I thought to myself they weren't that difficult although the target was moving and the adrenalin was flowing. Oswald was a trained marksman which helped him no doubt.



    k98k792
    Posted - 11/20/2003 : 3:08:33 PM
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    Just saw a Program on the Learning Channel where they recreated the assassination scene at another loation.The marksmen was able to equal Oswalds performance.They then did the same using a Carcano they had modifed ,so that when the trigger was squeezed it emitted a laser beam.It showed very clearly that wounds to the cars passengers had to of come from the rear.They then went to Dealy plaza and tried the laser thing from the grassy knoll and other locations cited by conspiracy buffs.It cleary showed that the angles were wrong for the wounds inflicted.And interesting side note the marksman said that the first shot was at a awkward angle,the second shot angle was better and the angle of the third shot,his body was in a good shooting position.He said he did not notice this at first using the live rounds because of recoil and bolt manipulation.Pretty darn interesting.



    Hambone
    Posted - 11/21/2003 : 12:23:45 AM
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    Anybody watch PrimeTime tonight? Also, on the History Channel they showed the results of modern computerized recreation. Oswald was the shooter. The only shooter. A piece of the so called "magic bullet" was compared to fragments from Connolly. Without question, that bullet tore through Connolly's back and wrist. They backtracked the trajectory of that "magic bullet" through Connolly, through Kennedy's neck, out JFK's back and all the way to the muzzle of Oswald's M.38 SR. The so called motorcycle cop radio recording allegedly indicating four shots has been conclusively proven to not indicate four shots, and in fact, probably not indicate shots at all. I've been to Dealy. I'm not a great shot, but I think I could have hit such a target at least once with my Clark customized Series 70 .45. After what I have seen tonight, I am absolutely convinced, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the only bullets that hit JFK came from Oswald in the TBD building and that no conspiracy existed. Go here:

    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/W...spiracy-1.html



    Atlpete
    Posted - 11/21/2003 : 09:47:27 AM
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    I second Hambone's conclusion regarding Oswald as the single shooter for all the same reasons. Anybody who thinks otherwise likely has not visited the TBD museum at Dealey plaza nor perfected their aim with an M91/38 fucile corto (which is what you want IMO Galaxieman if your considering a Carcano, they're easier to get ammo for as well as fairly plentiful and in-expensive) I have read that in the past certain law officers in North Texas would have an annual summer bbq at Possum Kingdom Lake at which they'd roll a decapitated sedan with dummies through a gully that dimensionally approximates Dealey Plaza, having a shooting contest with a carcano in which a few of the truly good shots amongst them could replicate Oswald's fusilade and targeting. I'm not completely convinced that there wasn't some conspirancy around the events of 11/22/63 and Oswald's death at the hands of Ruby though.



    Hambone
    Posted - 11/21/2003 : 6:23:17 PM
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    Pete, the thing that was brought out was that all these people speculating and making up theories about Oswald and Ruby knew neither man. Oswald's brother, KGB handlers, etc., all stated without equivocation that Oswald did it and was capable of it. Same with everyone that knew Ruby. Ruby shot Oswald in a fit of rage borne of little man syndrome. Both were quirky head case misfits. Oswald was rejected by the Reds as unstable and Ruby was rejected for the same reasons by the mob. Neither had the wherewithall, sense, or ability to put together a conspiracy (except a conspiracy of one). Of course, these are my opinions, notwithstanding Oliver Stone's "back and to the left" mantra (which, by the way, is proven hogwash).



    Atlpete
    Posted - 11/21/2003 : 7:20:14 PM
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    Good points HB, especially regarding L(ooney)ee Harvey Oswald. I'm not given to a tabloid mentality of using conspiracies to explain away what I can't accept or comprehend, however- IMO, there is enough weirdness around the subsequent investigation by the Warren Commission, coercion by LBJ, Ruby's ties with Kansas City, the palpable whiff of suppression of evidence etc.(forget the multiple rifle, grassy knoll, all of that hogwash) that prevent me from COMPLETELY accepting a total absence of conspiracy in the subsequent events of the asassination. I do believe Oswald acted alone but I have doubts the public has been given all the facts about what followed and why. While I'm sure the truth is not as exotic as Stone's idiotic (really putrid) revisionism, it might not match the "accepted" version currently taught in my son's history book either. Regards Pete



    Tembo
    Posted - 11/22/2003 : 02:08:25 AM
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    If you are interested in the Kennedy shooting you will want to buy a 91/38 6.5mm Carcano short rifle made at Terni in 1940. They show up from time to time on the auction sites and other places as well, at anywhere from, say, $100 to $300, depending (though it had better be an awfully good one to pay the latter price). The Japanese made scopes show up from time to time on ebay. I believe the Carcano Homepage has some substantial info on the whole topic. An interest in figuring the Kennedy/Oswald thing for myself lead me to acquire the whole rig, which then lead me into Italian rifles generally. It's been interesting , fun and educational. Doing some of your own shooting with the correct set-up at the right distances is a useful experience for learning how to separate the wheat from the hot air in the eternal Kennedy/Oswald debate. BTW, the dialogue on this Forum is much better informed than the wild speculation that finally got shut-down on the Collector's Forum. Those guys are absolutely great about the stuff they do know about, but Oswald's rifle isn't one of them.



    Hawkster318
    Posted - 11/22/2003 : 07:45:38 AM
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    As far as the Japanese scope mount goes ~ Does anyone have any leads as to where to find one? I have checked Ebay, and will continue to do so. What is the correct designation for this scope mount?

    I was refered to this board from a Swiss Forum. I have rifle which used this style scope, although it wasn't a Carcano. Are there other scope mounts available with the same bolt hole pattern that might be usable?

    Thank you all for your time and consideration on this matter.

    Alan in Wisconsin

    www.Hawkster318.com/ ~ Zeughaus Hawkster
    http://p223.ezboard.com/fcurioandrelicfirearmsforumfrm9 ~ The Curios and Relics Firearms Swiss Forum
    Be sure to check out the Curios and Relics Firearms Forum for other weapons as well....
    http://p223.ezboard.com/bcurioandrelicfirearmsforum



    Atlpete
    Posted - 11/22/2003 : 12:46:13 PM
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    You'll have a harder time finding the mount by itself, I have only seen them listed with the 4x18 scope, which leads me to the question of who manufactured the mounts; Ordinance Optics or some enterprising buyer at Klein's? At the time they cataloged the scope as optional for a variety of available mil-surps including Arisaka's, M95's, 91/30's etc. so I wonder what the mounts for those looked like as well. A previous post here described it as stamped from thin gauge sheet steel, flimsy enough to allow him to bend by hand while mounted on the rifle. Defintely a cheapo rig all the way around. Actually sounds like the mount would be pretty easy to reproduce.



    Tembo
    Posted - 11/23/2003 : 01:51:48 AM
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    As I remember the scope has printed on it 4x18, Optics Ordnance, Hollywood California, Made in Japan. Atlpete was correctly informed, the mount is thin sheet metal and while I have never tried it on mine, I think it undoubtedly could be bent by hand. In fact I am extremely careful with the scope and mount, because the mount,especially, seems fragile. Also like Atlpete I have never seen the mount sold separately from the scope.



    Hawkster318
    Posted - 11/23/2003 : 05:20:06 AM
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    Thanks for the info guys. I do appreciate it. Is a Weaver No 1 anywhere close to this style?



    Carcano
    Posted - 11/23/2003 : 09:21:20 AM
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    For a more extensive commentary on scope and scope mount, please see Lattimer's book. Listed in the Carcano website's bibliography.



    MarkRKelley
    Posted - 11/23/2003 : 12:05:55 PM
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    Some of you don't understand the three shots in 8 seconds. Please look at it this way.

    Bang! The first shot is fired and the clock starts. Four seconds later, Bang!...the second shot. Four seconds later, Bang!....the final shot. Even I can work a Carcano and regain a sight picture in four seconds. The target was below and heading away. We should all get to shoot downhill at 200 pound targets moving slowly and smoothly away during deer season at well under 100 yards distance on a clear bright day from what was essentially a shooting rest. What is so stinking impossible about that?

    Millions of Carcani were built. I hazzard to suggest most of them were fine rifles. When the Austrians were fighting the Italians during WWI, I bet they took the Carcano seriously. When we were in North Africa, I bet the Brits and GIs took the rifle seriously. They didn't think much of the Italian soldiers, but the Italians made some excellent weapons. The Carcano was out-of-date, but so is the Mosin. Some Mosins won't hit a 55 gal. trash can at 50 years. Others are MOA at 100 yards. Is the Mosin good or bad?

    JFK's head was hit from behind in the upper right quandrant by a round nosed bullet. His head blew up like one of R.Lee Ermy's evil watermelons on mail call (and the Gunny normally shoots spitzer rounds close in and at high velocity).

    The JFK assassination bears striking similarities to the 9/11 attacks. Until the attacks, we couldn't see a clear threat. Afterwards, the Monday morning quaterbacks lambast the powers that be for not putting the pieces together ahead of time. Hind sight is 20/20. With 11/24/63, we see all this "evidence" and it makes us all stand up and point to the great conspiracy. What we have are most of the pieces of one complete puzzle mixed with the random pieces of many other puzzles. They are all pieces, but so many of the pieces have nothing to do with the assassination puzzle.

    LHO was a somewhat wacko Marxist looking to impress Castro or the Kremlin.

    JFK had many enemies. If LHO hadn't shot him, the Commies, the Mafia, the Unions, or Southern Democrats might have later. Even if he had sustained a much less severe wound, JFK had big time life-threatening health problems. He might have died from the sort of wound John Connoly recovered from.

    Dealey Plaza is a brick and concrete canyon. Sounds echo. A supersonic bullet passing a stationary object (such as a tree) will generate a sonic boom or something close to it. Carlos Hathcock knew to shoot past objects because it would confuse the targets as to where the shot were coming from. I doubt LHO knew that, but that does prevent that 6.5 RN round from generating a report if it passes near a tree.

    Mrs. Connolly survives to this day. She has been on TV a great deal lately. She is adament in her opinion that the 1st shot hit JFK in the upper back/lower kneck. The 2nd shot hit her husband. The 3rd shot struck JFK in the head. She said she was covered with JFK's brain, blood, hair and skull fragments, as was all of the car forward of the President. Everything I know about forensics I learned on TV. It seems obvious that a blood splatter like that would certainly have been the result of a shot from the direction of the TSBD. Remember, that while the President's limo was moving slowly, it was moving. Any splatter would have had to go against a 20 (?) mph head wind. I just don't see how under these conditions a shot from the front would have given this sort of splatter.

    Just my thoughts and opinions. I remember that day very clearly. I was in the 3rd grade at St. Mary's Catholic School in Temple, Texas. Mrs. Campangia came into our classroom crying and told Sister. We all knelt next to our desks and prayed. Many of us cried, not so much because we understood the gravity of the circumstance at that age, but because we could see the pain in the faces of the adults. Monsgr. Patrick J. O'Reilly called all the students to the church and we prayed the Rosary. JFK was something special to us Catholics living in the Bible Belt. He was one of us, so it seemed to us. He wasn't as bad as many think, and certainly not as great as the majority recall. His reality was somewhere in the middle. But at the time, he was a young vibrant man like so many of our Dad's who had served in the war. We believed and trusted our leaders on all levels. We were united in our distrust of the Commies. We knew our country was the greatest and we weren't ashamed of it.

    I remember being so disappointed to find out LBJ (never heard of him before that day) didn't have any young children like JFK. He was just another old Protestant.

    Forgive me for some of this. None of this is meant as an attack on anyone for their race, creed, or politics. I have seen the death of JFK, MLK, RFK, Tet, Johnson's retirement and so many things in my 48 years. I don't look at these things and the later revelations from the perspective of a young person.

    Life is mean and capricious. Some realities, especially the simple ones, are the hardest to accept.

    God bless you all,
    Mark



    Edward
    Posted - 12/07/2003 : 12:24:06 AM
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    This is GREAT! I have owned an M-41 since I was 14 years old, I am now 55.
    $9.95 at JM Fields. I bought it to shoot sharks from a commercial fishing boate on which I was employed. I shot a lot of sharks. I have seen that round do incredable things. I got real good with that rifle. I could never understand why people would say that it was an impossible shot. Try hitting a swimming Blue Shark from the roof of a pitching boate. I did it almost every day for 3 summers. I am so glad to at last read some semblance of sanity on this issue. Thank you all.



    kywoodwrkr
    Posted - 12/11/2003 : 1:18:37 PM
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    Alan,
    First of all my apologies for not getting the package sent to you yet.
    I actually lost it in the debris I call a home for a short period of time.
    Others, on the mount.
    Yes it is stamped metal. However it has reinforcing ridges stamped into it to reinforce it.
    It is also stamped #2 I believe.
    Maybe Alan will be able to post some pictures when I finally get the package sent to him!
    Tomorrow would be nice wouldn't it Alan?



    Franchi
    Posted - 12/16/2003 : 5:57:22 PM
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    Nice thread. I got this photo off the "net" a couple of years ago. The link to the original photo no longer works, wish I had kept the original photo. Anyway here is a close-up of the mount, hope it is clear enough. Note there are only two screws holding it on and the rear edge of the mount has been cut off along with one mounting holes. The original mount has four mounting holes and is marked No. 2 JAPAN. David Franchi

    Download Attachment:
    32.38 KB

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    Tembo
    Posted - 11/30/2003 : 12:34:36 AM
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    Using roundnose Italian military surplus made anywhere from the late 20's to about 1939 I was getting 5 shot groups of between 3.00 and 4" at 100yds. This is obviously not world beater accuracy, but it isn't that bad either, considering the ammo. And compared to what I was getting with the undersized Norma, I felt like I should try out for the Olympics. Norma was the first ammo I tried - what did I know? Hey, it's Norma, it's expensive, how bad can it be! The groups at 50 yds were so bad I felt like I had walked into the twilight zone. They weren't really groups at at all. There I am with my cool, new Kennedy rig and I really can't hit the broad side of a barn. If you stood in front of me at 100yds I'm pretty sure you would have been safe from anything short of a lucky accident. So I hunted down the old posts about ammo on this forum and started to feel a little better after I learned a few things and measured the Norma bullets.

    BTW, those old posts explained for me why the bolt wasn't closing very well on single rounds, either. That first try with the Kennedy rig was my first foray into Italian rifles and it was pretty tough going all the way around.

    Finally, the scope itself seems to hold zero pretty well. I have never had to make more than minimal re-adjustments. But I am very careful with the whole set up. This isn't exactly a scope and mount made for a machine gun. The mount is the serious weak point, it's just sheet metal and can be accidentally bent pretty easily. Definitely very Mickey Mouse, but as I recall, the original Klein's price for the whole set-up was less than $25.00.

    Lawdog, there used to be a guy from Canada who sold the scopes one at a time on ebay - he seemed to have a lot of them - and his usual price for the scope was $150; the same as it cost me from a private party. You got a nice price. If there are anymore at the same place, you might email KYGun and tell him where to find one.



    arch jones
    Posted - 11/30/2003 : 12:34:15 PM
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    I have built an Oswald repo rifle. The rifle is the same year and Manf as Oswalds rifle and is even stamped Made In Italy like Oswalds
    which leads me to believe it is one of the same Adams Consolidated 1960 shipments that Oswalds rifle was in. The rifle may be one of the Klien sporting goods rifles because it was taped for the scope mount but had no scope or mount when I got it . The sn# is one letter prefix later than Oswalds which means it was built one month later, I added and original Ordaance Optics scope and mount to the rifle . The holes for the mount matched the scope mount holes in the rifle when I bought it . I have even been able to locate a 50's Air force holster that Oswald used as a sling. Using 1960's surplus ammo and .268 dia bullet reloads I get 1 1/2" groups at 100 yrds.I and my shooting friends(we are all Law enforcement) can routinely shoot 3 shots in the time and distance Oswald was reported to have shot Kennedy.
    and hit head and shoulder targets. The Gun is capable of making the shots Oswald was suppose to have made. I spent a lot of time collecting info and photo's on the rifle. The rifle took 3 yrs to research and build. The stock is much darker now that in the photo's

    Pictures were no longer stored on the old server



    PreserveThe2nd
    Posted - 11/30/2003 : 9:59:38 PM
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    I guess I should make an offer to post pictures of my Oswald/Kennedy set up. I am not a regular of this forum but came in for information on my Chinese rifle. But I do have a display surrounding my Oswald carcano that I can photograph and put on line if anyone is interested. Elements include:

    *M91/38 Carcano rifle correctly marked
    *Proper scope mounted using two screw setup
    *Original Klein's shipping papers (shipped 6 mo. before Oswald's)
    *Original unopened box of WCC ammo, lot 3 also from Kleins
    *Properly marked/dated ammo clip
    *Brand new in original box USAF lightweight holster and strap
    *S&W Victory revolver correct markings and modifications as Oswald's
    *Colt Cobra, very early 1st version as was Jack Ruby's (this one is about 1000 numbers higher than his serial number
    *Colt Cobra hammer shroud mounting kit in original box for above
    *Imperial Reflex Duo Lens 620 camera that took the photo of Oswald on the cover of Life Magazine, in original box with instructions, flash
    *Other stuff I don't remember what I have right now

    I sure would like a good color photo of the blanket Oswald had his rifle wrapped in in the garage if anyone knows of one.

    Thanks, Mark B. [email protected]



    Tembo
    Posted - 12/19/2003 : 12:38:17 AM
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    I had an interesting thing happen while shooting this morning that is relevant to kywoodwrkr's story about Mrs Connelly's statement that Jacqueline Kennedy was climbing onto the back of the limo to retrieve a piece of the president's skull.

    My brother and I were shooting at pumpkins with a .44 magnum (mid-morning coffe break sort of thing - we live and work in the country) when we noticed that substantial pieces of the pumpkin, around the point of impact, were breaking off and projecting themselves back toward us for a distance of say two to three feet. Neither of us could ever recall seeing this phenomenon before, but then we had never shot at pumpkins before either. Pumpkins and human heads both have relatively thick hard shells and soft interiors - not identical of course, but, similar. This is just the sort of thing that is implied by Mrs. Connelly's remarks,if Oswald was the lone shooter. Until this morning I was troubled by Mrs. Connelly's remarks, seeing them as evidence of a second gunman at the grassy knoll. Even though I didn't really believe it, there didn't seem to be a reasonable explanation for the situation other than a second gunman in front. But after seeing this business this morning with the pumpkin, it is clear that it is possible for pieces of hard shelled material, like skull, to fly backward toward the shooter. I've seen it happen and I feel like I can finally eliminate a nagging objection to the the lone shooter theory. At this point I think in all liklihood that it was Oswald by himself all the way. Get a hard-shelled pumpkin and try it yourself. Nothing like hands-on evidence. FWIW.



    Carcano
    Posted - 12/19/2003 : 3:48:10 PM
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    I don't remember any mention of the Fascist date in the Warren Commission's report or in Frazier's testimony, but he does mention the factory refurbishment stamp of 1947 (important because it explains the condition of the rifle, and is little photographed).

    Maybe someone here has access to the published CDs of the Warren Commission and the HCSA volumes and can help with a photograph from the "proper" side ?

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    DaCZMan
    Posted - 12/29/2003 : 12:01:04 AM
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    Hi, I've been looking for a scoped Carcano like Oswald's for years, but I could never find one-until now. I inquired about the rifle, but he wants $600 for the thing. It is exactly like Oswald's-Terni,1940, same scope, and in very good condition. I don't know much about Italian weapons, so would this be a decent deal? I've heard these things shoot like crap mostly and are knocked out of alignment easily, but I would really like one for the historical value.



    Carcano
    Posted - 12/29/2003 : 04:06:20 AM
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    Too expensive, isn't worth it. Rather give a nice gift to your spouse, girlfriend, or Significant Other, such as to start the year 2004 with love.

    You can get the gun for $ 100 (cheaper when Century had the Albanian imports a couple of months ago). Scope and mount require some searching, and the sling is a do-it-yourself-affair, unless you happen to find such a dusty shoulder holster in a "mixed bin" of some old gunshop.



    Carcano
    Posted - 12/29/2003 : 12:03:41 PM
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    The scopes were mounted upon order by Klein's gunsmith (or rather by his apprentices, I would say) when the order came in. Rifles were grabbed from the stack, and the additional scope was slapped on them as they came.



    DaCZMan
    Posted - 12/29/2003 : 5:21:16 PM
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    OK, then. The guy who has the rifle's website is here: http://www.myoldrifles.com/ . I did not see the pictures on his site, but I asked him about it and he said it is for sale for $600 bucks. Email him--it's on the site. ... You have to scroll through all of the photos. Oh and my mistake--it a 1941, not a 1940.
    -Allen



    Carcano
    Posted - 12/29/2003 : 7:25:03 PM
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    Good pic. That's not even a 100 $ Carcano, that's a 50 $ gun (heavily reworked and sanded stock, bad mottled blueing, patina and some surface rust and micro-pitting).

    Incidentally, whoever recently slapped together gun, mount and scope, he did not even bother to duplicate the LHO Carcano's scope mount details correctly, as in the original (documented a thousand times).

    Tsk. Somebody *will* buy it, I am afraid. There is nothing deeply wrong in parting a fool and his money, but if it be so, I would really prefer it to go to a proper charity instead :-(.



    kroh
    Posted - 12/29/2003 : 11:44:18 PM
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    Sorry, Alexander, for doubting you. . .

    After analyzing the photos I would not purchase it for any amount of $$$ either.

    It is not IMHO a genuine example of a Klein's Carcano, but it seems to me that it is really someone's idea of a restoration or imitation of the type in the "I wanna build a copy of the Kennedy gun" mold.

    I looked at every photo but couild not find where on the site this rifle was listed as for sale much less the price asked. . . just as well.



    Tembo
    Posted - 12/30/2003 : 5:36:33 PM
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    The rifle is clearly a mess, though the scope is worth $150. Not even the correct year. Total value $200.

    Carcano,
    What bothers you about the scope mount details, the extra screws? Or is it something else?

    Oh, one other thing. I wouldn't recognize an authentic LHO sling - you know the Air Force shoulder holster thing. Any chance this rifle has on it the correct item?


    Franchi
    Posted - 12/31/2003 : 11:41:06 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The sling in the auction appears to be correct. Original "Oswald" sling was part of the harness (for shoulder, leg, or belt use) holster strap for the U.S.A.F. Colt Aircrewman and Smith & Wesson M13 lightweight revolvers from the late 1950's/1960's in cal. .38 Special. Holster patent was Jan,14, 1956.
    I believe Alexander means the "Oswald" scope mount only had two screws and the corner was cut off.
    David Franchi



    Tembo
    Posted - 12/31/2003 : 8:43:32 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If you keep your eyes open, you can put together one of your own. The scopes show up on ebay from time to time and the rifles are available periodically on Auction Arms and Gunbroker. Check the Trader on this site as well. Authentic LHO ammo is tough to find and very expensive, but there is a little milsurp still available and Hornaday's and Graf's have good quality new stuff.

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    Default Photo captions from History Channel

    Franchi
    Posted - 03/12/2004 : 2:05:37 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I copied these "Oswald Carcano" photos from "The History Channel" "Modern Marvels" series "Guns of Infamy"

    The finish on the Carcano stock appears to be flaking (hard to see in my "TV" copies). Stock finish looks like it is a dark brown "paint like" or heavy varnish/stain. It almost looks like black shoe polish over the original stain. The rifle stock appears to be pretty "beat up".
    I also copied the original "Klein's" invoice.
    See photo links below.
    David Franchi

    http://pdhomes.net/collections/orr4sale/vidcap5.jpg

    http://pdhomes.net/collections/orr4sale/vidcap6.jpg

    http://pdhomes.net/collections/orr4sale/vidcap7.jpg

    http://pdhomes.net/collections/orr4sale/vidcap8.jpg

    http://pdhomes.net/collections/orr4sale/vidcap9.jpg

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    Default Correct scope side mount

    Franchi
    Posted - 03/27/2004 : 9:45:58 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It is NO.2 JAPAN
    There are different mounts for various rifles. D. Franchi

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    Default LHO scope sighted in

    Galaxieman
    Posted - 04/04/2004 : 05:23:36 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I dont know if anyone ever took the time to read the transcripts from the WC from people who "saw" Oswald at a range in the few weeks before the assasination but this is pretty interesting. This Mr Price (Malcolm), was a patron volunteer clean up worker at the range . The first time he saw Oswald was at closing time and had to have headlights shined on the targets. Price says he got it zero'd on 12+ shots, gets three in the bulls eye then tells Oswald to try it. He says he put three real tight in the bull, said it was good and left. The below excerpt was from the 3rd and last time he saw him during a turkey shoot. Can you imagine being the guy that set up the scope for Oswald!!

    If you want to read the whole thing... http://jfkassassination.net/russ/wit.htm
    then scroll down to 'Price, Malcolm H jr.,'.


    Mr. LIEBELER. Who commented on the telescope?
    Mr. PRICE. Oswald.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Commented to you?
    Mr. PRICE. Yes; he asked me to look through it, and he said, "It's one of the clearest telescopes that I have ever seen---one of the brightest." He said, "It's a Japanese scope and I gave $18 for it."
    Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he paid $18 for it?
    Mr. PRICE. Yes; he said that it was--he remarked that it was a 4-power telescope and he said it was mounted on Redfield mounts. You see, they make mounts for several different guns, but I don't know one mount from another myself. I just took his word for it that it was a Redfield mount, but I looked through the scope and it was very clear. It was very bright and we compared it with two scopes that Mr. Slack had on his gun and a fellow that was shooting on the right side in booth 7--I don't know who that was, but we compared it with three different American-made scopes and his telescope was brighter and clearer by far. You could read the lines and numerals on the target very plainly with it.

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    Default

    Galaxieman
    Posted - 10/13/2004 : 6:16:09 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    (...) all those tests from the formal, like for the courts, by Fackler etc etc, to the informal like hundreds if not thousands, of guys plinking on the week ends that proven it can be done easily in time and accuracy, are all really part of the cover up.



    dragonfly
    Posted - 10/17/2004 : 07:31:02 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    For anyone interested in the JFK assination,a visit to the excellent 6-th Floor Museum in Dallas is most informative. Dealy Plaza is a rather compact area. From the vantage point where Oswald took the shots one can see that it is really was not that difficult a feat of marksmanship, even with the Carcano's iron sights. JMHO.



    Galaxieman
    Posted - 10/17/2004 : 2:46:36 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (...) not saying there wasn't funny business afterwards (or before), just that the actual shooting was simple.
    Your particular rifle might have trouble working the bolt in under 2 seconds, like I mentioned earlier, hundreds if not thousands of others have done it. There is even a filmed interview with one of the most famous conspiracy theorist who says the Carcano bolt is absolutely impossible to work under 2.3 or 2.4 seconds (forgot which) as he demonstrates it. Only problem is he does it in 1.8 seconds, more then fast enough.
    Remember you have 8+ seconds to fire the TWO last rounds. The first shot starts the clock. "Bang" clock starts, chamber #2 "bang" chamber #3 "bang" clock stops. I've done it with all my other milsurps with time to spare. I just ordered my first Carcano that should be here middle of the week. When I get that to the range I'll give it a shot (pun intended) too.

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    Default A lookalike rebuild

    Americana
    Posted - 12/12/2004 : 8:34:36 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Finally finished!
    Please check out serial# C4880 which is my copy of Oswald's Carcano serial #C2766. I tried to make it look close
    to the photo in Life magazine.

    Alas, pics did no longer exist

    Download Attachment:
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    Download Attachment:
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    Americana
    Posted - 12/15/2004 : 08:16:03 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Actually I never fired it, but it seems it could be
    accurately worked within the 8 sec. time frame.

    Also, I did not purchase it as a complete unit.
    I purchased the scope and rifle separately.
    The scope was from eBay and the rifle I purchased
    from a dealer. It took a while to find one
    with the "C" prefix but they are out there.
    What's great about it is the stock also has
    a clear C4880 stamp and the RE Terni 1940 XVIII cartouche.
    I stained the rifle with a mix of Mars Black
    and Raw Umber to achieve the color as it appeared in
    Life magazine article. (The purist may say I ruined
    a good rifle but I really don't think I did).

    I saw that ad, $2000 is crazy but in this world
    sometimes there's a buyer for everything.
    AS far as the price, I did pay a little high for
    the rifle but I did want to get one with the "C" prefix
    so I went for it.
    All together, the complete setup with rifle
    and scope went for about $550
    Some on this site may say I was ripped off
    but to be honest I'm happy with it.

    I have an extra Hollywood Optics Scope (no mount)
    that I may sell for $150 now that my setup is complete and I don't
    need it. It is exactly like the ones that come up on eBay
    every 6 months or so without the knurled end.

    I know there is one reader that does not like the
    "obsession" with the Oswald rifle and thinks we're crazy.
    All I have to say to him is..
    you look at our pictures,
    you read our discussion about it,
    you like your type of collecting and we like ours
    so....... and be happy

    AMERICANA

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    Default Oswald's homemade Carcano sling

    Franchi
    Posted - 09/23/2005 : 12:03:12 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The "Oswald" sling was part of the harness (for shoulder, leg, or belt use) holster strap for the U.S.A.F. Colt Aircrewman and Smith & Wesson M13 lightweight revolvers from the late 1950's/1960's in cal. .38 Special. Holster patent was Jan,14, 1956.
    David Franchi

    Download Attachment:
    33.82 KB

    http://www.gunboards.com/forums/uplo...3_picture.jpeg



    arch jones
    Posted - 10/05/2005 : 6:31:05 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Franchi is correct about it being an Air Force holster, I looked for one for about 2 yrs for my original Kliens sporting goods (91/38) Carcano I finally found one at a surplus store at Seymore Johnson Air Fore Base in Goldsboro NC

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    Default

    kroh
    Posted - 05/03/2005 : 07:09:20 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The scope was a 4 x 18 power with coated optics marked "ORDNANCE OPTICS INC., HOLLYWOOD CALIFORNIA" and "MADE IN JAPAN". It has a 3/4" tube and flares to approximately 1" front and rear.

    Above info from "The Carcano, Italy's Military Rifle" by Richard Hobbs, page 41 (EMPIRE ARMS sells autographed copies of this esential reference for $19.95 plus actual shipping, see http://www.empirearms.com/books.htm).
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dennis Kroh, owner
    use this link: http://64.82.96.51



    Tombstone
    Posted - 05/06/2005 : 8:24:01 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here is the ad he reportedly ordered from published in The American Rifleman.
    http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/to...202254_fff.JPG
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    http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/to...6202311_cu.JPG
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    krink-freak
    Posted - 05/07/2005 : 11:01:26 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here's the webcam in Dealey Plaza:

    http://www.earthcam.com/jfk/



    DMala
    Posted - 05/09/2005 : 5:30:43 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Note that Klein's advertisement picture does not depict a Mod.91/38 short rifle, but one of those cut-down M91s made by the Italian exporter, Riva. In other ads around the same time such cut down sporters were sold as "Suprema Carbine". Oswald however received a M91/38 SR with added commercial scope and mount, C2766.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 200556202254_fff.JPG   200556202311_cu.JPG  

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    Default

    M-1 GARAND $90! Excuse me I need to go puke. No seriously that sucks for us younger guys. I have always wanted a M38 Carcano. I am a younger collector and I don't have a lot of money for milsurps. Where can you buy one of these for under $100?(I don't care about condition all I want is a complete and functioning specimen for my collection.)
    C&Rriflecollector91 "Action Not Words"

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    Default

    The "low" prices that make many of us swoon, ought to be seen in perspective. In general, new firearms were more expensive in the past than they are today, given the relation to monthly income. Same is true for ammunition. E.g., most people in the "Old West" did not carry a Colt SAA, simply because they could not afford it. But Colonel Colt's six-shooters survived the times, the much cheaper top-break revolvers of various manufacturers did not.

    Surplus rifles however were at certain times indeed cheaper than they are presently. However, the $ 21.45 (19.95 plus freight) that Lee Harvey Oswald payed for his scoped Carcano M 91/38 rifle at Klein's mail-order business in 1963, must also be seen in comparison to his monthly income.

    Please see his monthly income and expenditure sheets here, very instructive:

    http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk...pendix-14.html

    He bought the rifle in the only month when he had a bit more money at hand, in March 1963. In other months, he lived on a shoestring.

    Carcano
    Last edited by Carcano; 10-09-2007 at 06:58 AM.

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    Default Copy of rifle, and shoulder holster that served for strap

    spydr1
    Posted - 09/25/2005 : 9:03:23 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    How's this???

    dave
    http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/sp...3_kencarc3.jpg
    Download Attachment:
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    spydr1
    Posted - 09/26/2005 : 8:28:50 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here's a pic of the holster, I need one also. I have been checking all the gun shows and boards but no luck so far.

    http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/sp...ingholster.jpg
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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 200592521313_kencarc3.jpg   2005926202821_carcanoslingholster.jpg   20051226105659_GUN5.JPG   20051226105734_RIFLS.JPG   20051226105758_STRAP.JPG  

  14. #14
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    Default

    Tembo
    Posted - 12/27/2005 : 8:49:33 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I took another look at the pictures in the National archive with my computer at work, where my color resolution is much better, and I am far from convinced that they show the painted black stock of a Guardia del Duce rifle. The sling appears to be black leather and, set against the rifle stock, it suggests, to me anyway, that C2766 has the beat-up dark brown stock of an ordinary Carcano '38 FC . The contrast with the black leather sling against the brown stock is very clear. This supports the same conclusion I came to when watching the original news story that shows a Dallas policeman - it could have been an FBI agent - holding up Oswald's rifle for the press to see. There is a moment when the light is right and it is possible to see clearly the brown - not painted black - of the Carcano's stock. Not to mention the fact that the FBI description of the rifle was quite detailed by the time of the Warren Commision Report. It makes no mention of the black stock, which, I believe, would have been interesting to FBI weapons experts and could hardly have been left out.



    arch jones
    Posted - 12/29/2005 : 2:28:45 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The stock on the Oswald rifle is dark brown. The finish is cracked and grazes because of poor post war storage it is dried out. The Warren report has several discriptions of the stock as brown and dark brown. The stock looks black because of the poor background choice of white for the photo's. Several years ago while talking to one of the curitor's at the National Archives about ordering full size prints of the rifle photo's he told me the stock was dark brown he said it looked like a color stain called Beaver Brown. I found a latex stain once color beaver brown but forget who made it. My rifle is lighter brown and the finish is not grazed as is Oswalds rifle. I have heard on some of the Kennedy wed sites that the rifle might be exhibited in the future. You can see it now if you are a approved researcher of the National Archives but may not handle the rifle.One of the reasons I started studying the assination of Kennedy was so much conflicting information on the rifle and shot Oswald made



    arch jones
    Gunboards Member



    27 Posts
    Posted - 12/31/2005 : 11:15:57 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think this is the photo you are talking about. It show Oswald's rifle his 2" S&W victory 38 he used to kill Officer Tippid . Kennedys bloody shirt, the brown bag he used to bring the rifle into the book depository, blanket he kept the rifle wraped in at home and one of the boxes he used as a shooting rest with his prints on it

    http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/ar...11525_LIFE.JPG
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    http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/ar...11125_LIFE.JPG
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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20051231111525_LIFE.JPG   2005123111125_LIFE.JPG  
    Last edited by Carcano; 10-10-2007 at 07:33 PM.

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    Default Discovery Channel "Unsolved History" on JFK Assassination

    Papa G
    Posted - 01/23/2006 : 3:39:43 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    last night they did a show about the JFK asasination.

    they had a guy in Australia recreating the magic bullet theory. using Carcano's and special anatomical dummies.

    the rifle was not using the LHO scope and mount, some other scope, and the mount had 4 horizontal slots most of the length in the side plate mount. only got quick glimpses of the set up, and no details were given of the scope and mount.
    did anyone catch the show, and does anyone have a clue as to the scope mount used???



    Glengarry
    Posted - 02/02/2006 : 06:01:29 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Papa G I had a bit to do with the discovery program film in Australia as it was all shot on my club range at a place 50 miles north of Adelaide at Murray Bridge. I can find out the make of the scope but its a current military unit and bore no relationship to the Oswald scope.The reason for this was the requirement to hit a very specific point in the humanoid target with as little variance as possible. regards Glengarry.



    FixBayonets
    Posted - 02/02/2006 : 1:20:44 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wow, How bout a recap for those of us who did not see the show?



    Papa G
    Posted - 02/10/2006 : 10:15:22 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    thanks Glengarry. would you have any info on the scope mount used???
    it looked very sturdy from what i could see of it.



    Galaxieman
    Posted - 02/11/2006 : 03:51:07 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by FixBayonets
    Wow, How bout a recap for those of us who did not see the show?
    Pretty much what most people have been saying all along. It was one bullet but not magic.
    Connally was in the jumper seat, this positioned him inboard further then Kennedy. The angles both were in it was a perfectly straight path from JFKs neck through Connally.
    They molded ballistic gell with bones in them and tried to hit exactly how LHO's bullet hit, not only to illustrate the bullets path but also to see what it looked like when it emerged.
    Of course at first glance it looked "prestine" but up close slight deformation. Pictures of the actual bullet from other angles show the bullet pretty well out of shape. Just like in this test.



    Glengarry
    Posted - 02/11/2006 : 4:38:56 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Projectile was picked up in the area of the front seat just like the original. A friend of mine put the shooting and ballistics together, as you noticed his name is Alexander Krisdick . Alex obtained the same brand and batch of the original ammo to make it as authentic as pos. The main reason for using a bigger scope was placement of the shot being critical.The mount was a prototype military mount that is about to go into production for the military for use on long range sniping, and has a forward sloping grade to it. I can get details if you want. The day of the filming was bad lots gusts of wind but we got away with it as you saw. Regards Glen



    jonk
    Posted - 02/12/2006 : 12:56:01 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In short, the bullet in the test hit all the same points as it did on Kennedy and Connally, except that due to uncertain positioning of Connaly's wrist, several models were used and the bullet hit two, meaning it didn't have enough power to cause the thigh wound.



    Galaxieman
    Posted - 02/15/2006 : 01:22:53 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Their objective (pun intended) of using the military scope was to hit in the exact spot Kennedy was hit. No other reason.
    As Glengarry mentioned, this test was just to see what a bullet would do going through two people at a specific angle.

    I think all the evidence is pretty clear, there was one shooter and only three rounds were fired that day from the 6th floor window.
    LHO could have pulled the trigger all on his own or for some one, some one else could have pulled the trigger and set up Oswald, we'll probably never know for sure.

    Two things to keep in mind, poppa Joe had mob ties, JFK and RFK used that for their personal gain then turned their backs. The mob doesn't like that.
    At the other end of the spectrum, think of how weak of a link in the armor it would be for the U.S. if one lone nut ball was able to smoke the most powerful man in the world? Be secretive about certain info, maybe throw out some false stuff all to make it look like some very large well planed organization was behind it and VIOLA, it now seems like a lone nut, non-professional in no way could ever tough a President.
    Both the above are very plausible.

  16. #16
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    Default Ordnance Optics Scope

    Papa G
    Posted - 06/21/2006 : 12:24:37 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    scarce as hens teeth, but they turn up no and then on various online auctions. anyone have a clue as to what the average price is for one now??? appreciate it

    in an early 70's SGN Martin B. Retting was selling them complete with the mounts and screws for around $10. i got one and put it on a M91/38, later sold the whole thing for cheap.

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    Default LHO's Homemade Carcano Sling

    spydr1
    Posted - 07/09/2006 : 6:09:53 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Finally found a pic of the sling (or just part of it, Carcano):

    Dave

    http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/sp...8930_sling.JPG
    Download Attachment:
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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20067918930_sling.JPG  

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    Default WCC 6,5x52 mm Carcano Ammunition

    DocAV
    Posted - 10/22/2003 : 5:30:31 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The US had this stuff made up by WCC in the late 1940s for a mixture of Greek and Albanian (irregular) forces fighting against Communists on the Greek-Albanian Border, and for use within Albania itself.At the time, there was a Civil war in Greece, and the Greek Communists were using the (Already Communist) Albania as a Safe haven and resupply point. There were ample Carcano rifles available through-out the Balkan Area from WW II Italian stores and captures by various Greek and Albanian Partizan Bands, especially after the 1943 Italian surrender (whole Italian Units went over to the Locals, with Equipment, for 1943-45).

    By the time the ammo was ready, the Greek Civil War was winding down,the Royal Hellenic Army having been massively supported by the British with scads of .303 Ammo and weapons; Albania was still an "area of Interest" to the CIA, (as now known) and some 6,5 ammo was directed there, to friendly anti-communist groups (via air and sea-drop from Italy and Greece; however, the Anti-Coms were soon neutralised, and CIA activity in Albania decreased to "listening Post" only. Any excess WCC 6,5 ammo went to the Milsurp market in the mid to late 1950s.
    Aside from its "Kennedy" connection, its claim to fame is that outside of Norma Commercial ammo (and Now "PrviPartizan") it was the ONLY Military Boxer primed version of 6,5 Carcano ammo ever made; and the only 6,5 Carcano ammo ever made in the USA; and besides the WW I USCC 6,5x53R Dutch/Roumanian Contract of 1916-7, the only other 6,5 mm Military ammo ever made in the USA. So it has "Collectability", especially sealed Boxes. In keeping with WCC/WRA practice for Foreign Military contracts of the 1930s-1950s, the cartridge Headstamp has NO date, just manufacturer and calibre.

    Regards, Doc AV

  19. #19
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    Default

    This one comes from the old (Second) Ammo Board:
    http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=144153

    * * *

    sacooke
    Posted - 01/18/2006 : 01:23:38 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I thought about posting this on the Italian weapons baord, but this is as much an ammo issue, so I'll put it here.

    A well-known book on the Kennedy assassination, Gerald Posner's "Case Closed," supposedly has some statements about the rifle and ammunition used by Oswald that I find hard to take. On page 104 is this:

    "The Carcano is rated an effective weapon, good at killing people, and as accurate as the U.S. Army's M-14 rifle."

    Now, I do not have any 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano weapons in my collection, but I did train with, and carry, an M-14 for quite some time in the late 1960s, and I have a hard time accepting the above observation.

    On the same page, supposedly quoting an alleged "firearms expert," is this: "The 6.5 mm bullet, when fired, is like a flying drill," says Art Pence, a competitions firearms expert. "Some game hunters use the 6.5 mm shell to bring down animals as large as elephants."

    Has anyone ever heard of something as large as an elephant being brought down by a 6.5 round?

    Again, I don't have any 6.5 weapons (aside from two Swedes, which are different weapons and a different round entirely), so I thought I'd ask here to get others' thoughts on the matter.




    geekay
    Posted - 01/18/2006 : 07:50:55 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Read this very carefully; "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing", especially when it is driving a mouth or word processor. The expert quoted obviously has a LITTLE knowledge. Elephants have been taken with the 6.5x55 mm Swede and the Carcano rifles are capable of good accuracy; remember that this one was scoped, although many one-eyed M-14 devotees will become physically sick at the comparison. All bullets fired from a rifled barrel are like "flying drills". BTW did he go on to explain the intricacies of the "self steering bullet"?



    coyotechris
    Posted - 01/18/2006 : 12:01:02 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I would add this. One of the most successful African Elephant hunters used a 7mm Mauser, I am told. I would also say that the 6.5 Swede with the big bullets retains more energy past 300 yards than many 30-06 loads due to the low drag bullets. While the so-called expert has phrased things wrong, the carcano is quite capable of doing what Oswald did with it. And that is the point.



    Obsidian
    Posted - 01/18/2006 : 8:05:00 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Actually, the round that is famous for being used to kill elephants was not the 6.5x55 Swede. It was the 6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer Model 1903 Carbine that was used by W.D.M. Bell in Africa in the early part of the 20th century. He's also even more famous for using a 7x57mm for killing the majority of his elephant bulls and could do this because he was a magnificent marksman. He also kept a Nitro Express rifle on top of his feet in case things went wrong.

    The 6.5x54mm got it's reputation as a tremendously deadly hunting round because of it's slow, long, heavy bullet and it's corresponding very high sectional density. This bullet, usually a 154-162 gr. full metal jacket or soft point going from 2100-2300 fps. has penetration capabilities that are superb considering the bore diameter of the round. Bullets penetrate deep and straight when the hit their target, and consequently can kill animals as large as elephants. The 6.5x52 Mannlicher-Carcano is the round that the 6.5x54 is largely based on, and has nearly identical ballistics.

    The idea that the "The 6.5 mm bullet, when fired, is like a flying drill," is especially true of this caliber. A completely accurate description.

    As far as him saying that "The Carcano is rated an effective weapon, good at killing people, and as accurate as the U.S. Army's M-14 rifle." is a little bit of a stretch, as the M14 rifle is capable of accurate fire of 20 much more powerful rounds than the Carcano, but to be sure, a soldier familiar and trained in the use of the Carcano could certainly deal a serious amount of hurt with it, as they are dependable and accurate rifles shooting a full power cartridge. Was it the most deadly out there? Probably not, as the Italians set about changing their service cartridge to a 7.35mm quick tumbling bullet with low sectional density in the late 1930's. Be sure to make no mistake that the 6.5x52 was still very much capable of doing it's job.

    The idea that the Carcano was a "Humanitarian" rifle or anything like it is completely obsurd.

    The Mannlicher-Carcano was used to kill many, many people from WW1 until the end of WW2.



    barnetmill
    Posted - 01/19/2006 : 2:16:02 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    sacooke while there was a scope on that rifle, it was loose and had to be shimmed prior to test firing by the warren commission.

    There has been extensive discussion of the ammo and the wound dammaged observed on the president.

    Unfortunately I do not have time to try to look that information up.
    Basically he was hit by ammo that appeared to have exposed lead on bullet nose. His scalp is the only thing that kept most of head intact. The one bullet recovered at the either the scene or hospital(no chain of evidence for it) appeared to pristine.

    We really do not know what rifles or calibers were used during that event.



    sacooke
    Posted - 01/19/2006 : 3:54:24 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thanks for the replies. As I said, I know little of Carcano rifles. And I accept Obsidian's observation that the weapon and the round it fires are "capable of doing the job."

    The real questions, and ones that will be asked for time immemorial, are: was Oswald's rifle capable of doing the damage that was done that day, and was he the only one doing the shooting?

    I will always remain skeptical, if for no other reason than that was some phenomonal shooting, doing some massive damage in the space of only several seconds at moving targets. With a Carcano.

    I guess we'll never know with absolute certainty.

    Thanks to all.



    willycrash
    Posted - 01/19/2006 : 10:42:07 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    you wonder why a guy with his training would choose a carcano, back during the golden age of mil surps. coulda had a inexpensive 1903 springfield, at least.



    beachbumbob
    Posted - 01/19/2006 : 11:22:24 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    IIRC he paid $12.95 for the Carcano & Scope and 30 rounds of ammo from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. The Springfield would have set him back about $20. Remember, he was a laborer and was probably only making about $1 hour. While that seems cheap by todays standards it was a pretty big investment then.

    Cheers,
    Bob



    Merle
    Posted - 01/22/2006 : 7:59:11 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by geekay
    Read this very carefully; "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing", especially when it is driving a mouth or word processor. The expert quoted obviously has a LITTLE knowledge. Elephants have been taken with the 6.5x55 mm Swede and the Carcano rifles are capable of good accuracy; remember that this one was scoped, although many one-eyed M-14 devotees will become physically sick at the comparison. All bullets fired from a rifled barrel are like "flying drills". BTW did he go on to explain the intricacies of the "self steering bullet"?
    If you are referring to Karamojo Bell, he used a 6.5 x 54 M-S, not a Swede. It offered very good penetration, but not much shocking power, so if you missed the football sized brain ........



    geekay
    Posted - 01/23/2006 : 06:18:20 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thankfully I am not too old to learn and am gratefull for the correction on the 6.5 used to take elephants. I hope nobody has taken my "little" knowledge as gospel and tried to shoot elephants with a swede.



    saskone
    Posted - 01/23/2006 : 1:34:53 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I read a lengthy article on Karamojo Bell many years ago. When he was using the 6.5 he would walk up from behind and shoot the elephant from virtually point blank range somewhere behind the ear. In those days at the turn of the last century elephants were not afraid of humans as they were a few years later.



    Galaxieman
    Posted - 01/23/2006 : 5:33:01 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I read the English used the .303 early in the 1900's to take all the various animals in Africa, from the small through dangerous.

    while there was a scope on that rifle, it was loose and had to be shimmed prior to test firing by the warren commission.
    Lets not forget how many hands it went through and the possibility of how rough it could have been handled prior to the first test firing.
    Speaking of which, I think the feat has been repeated a million times by history buffs and experts alike. Think about it, the longest was 85 yards and though it was moving very slowly it was moving almost straight away. While I haven't put a scope on mine (my interest is more of it's WW2 participation) I've tried getting off three shots in under 6 seconds and keeping them in 6" at 50 yards. Not a problem.
    Has anyone read the transcripts? There was an older guy that helped out at a local rifle range, he tells of some one coming in fitting Oswald's description with a scoped Carcano. Don't recall all the details off hand but it was close to closing and he was the only one there. The old guy helped "Oswald" zero in the scope. I think he fired two shots, adjusted the scope then put three more in the bullseye. Then he asked "Oswald" how he liked it. "Oswald" either just nodded and said "good" or something simple like that and left.

    Also the "magic" bullet theory has been debunked. Connelly was sitting in a jumper seat. Due to the size and position of the seat he was actually quite a bit inboard to the center of the vehicle.
    Taking into account how he was slightly turned as well as how far inboard he was the bullet path through Kennedy then Connelly becomes straight.



    AGC
    Posted - 01/23/2006 : 6:57:29 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The 6.5mmx52 Italian/Carcano is certainly capable of killing. The military loading was a 160 grain bullet at about 2300 fps, only slightly less powerful than the original M1894 loading of the 6.5mmx55 Swedish, and actually more powerful than the 6.5mmx54 Greek/Mannlicher-Schoenauer military cartridge used, as some have pointed out, to kill even elephants on occasion.

    Anyone who says the 6.5mm Carcano is "the safest weapon ever made" is being willfully ignorant at best. More likely, they are displaying their bigotry and dishonoring the memory both of the 600,000 Italian soldiers who died---as allies of the US---in World War I, and of the hundreds of thousands of Austro-Hungarian soldiers who were killed by 6.5mm Carcano bullets.

    There is a vast amount of misinformation---_disinformation_ even, given the political agendas of many of its promoters---regarding the 6.5mmx52 Carcano, the M1891 Carcano series of rifles and carbines, and the facts of the Kennedy assassination.

    The reality is much simpler: the rifle used was more than accurate enough, Oswald was a quite adequate shot, firing the shots from the Book Depository was not all that difficult a string to shoot, and the damage done to Kennedy and Connally (and the "magic" "pristine" bullet) was just as was to be expected with the cartridge used.

    The shooting, using the same type of rifle and ammunition from the same lot, has been experimentally duplicated on several occasions. There was a program on the Discovery Channel or the History Channel within the last year or so that documented a recreation of the assassination, with ballistic gelatin and bone targets standing in for Kennedy and Connally. Yielding wounds in the same places, and a "pristine" (not really, but neither is the one recovered from Connally's stretcher) bullet.



    falm16
    Posted - 01/23/2006 : 8:01:39 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    all things considered, the 6.5X52, 6.5X54, 303 and 308 winchester are all within 3-5oo fps of each other with a similar weight pill, so i'd imagine a carcano would be capable of killing anything from man to elephants. i know many elephants have been killed with 303's and i watched a documentary of a professianal (sp) hunter running into a herd of elephants and dropping them like nothing with a FAL, he was thinning the herd, and that he did.



    tbird
    Posted - 01/23/2006 : 9:06:31 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sacooke,

    This may not be about ammo, but it does follow the topic.

    Bill Bonanno was the son of Joseph Bonanno (mafia godfather). Bill wrote a book, and helped make a movie about his fathers life. He claimed that the assassination of John and Robert Kennedy was carried out on behalf of the Chicago mob.

    He said that the mob made an agreement with Joe, John and Robert Kennedy to help get the Kennedy's in office. And in return the Kennedy's would ignore a lot of the things the mob was doing. Remember Joe Kennedy (John and Roberts father) was a bootlegger just like all the mob guys at that time, and had MANY mob friends. But for some reason people tend to forget that.

    Anyhow the mob kept up their end of the deal, but the Kennedy's didn't. When Robert became the Attourney General he went after the mob big time. So the mob killed John expecting this would scare Robert and he would quit going after them. Instead he went after them even more. So they killed him too.

    I don't know if any of this is true. But I know I would trust the word of a mob guy long before I would trust the word of a politician.



    montello
    Posted - 01/23/2006 : 9:51:53 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What an odd lot of folks on this thread! They duplicated the Owsald shot last night, the magic bullet, and it duplicated it almost perfectly, even running out of engery and harmlessly falling to the ground after emerging out of Connely's "wrist".
    The carcano bullet is in effect a flying drill, more so than most military bullets as it does not expand or yaw, which is why the Italians hated it and went to the tumbling 7.35mm.

    As for the French, didn't the French Navy corner Cornwallis and basicly win our war of revolution for us, you know the one that our army used French uniforms, equipment and muskets? Perhaps they are sorry they didn't leave us to the British!

    The war that we will lose is the war of currency, and it will be trading in Euros that will bring down the US, not bullets. Our current war will cost over 1 trillion dollars, proably more, and we fault the French for not wanting to commit suicide?



    sacooke
    Posted - 01/23/2006 : 11:26:52 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I appreciate the responses here. But would appreciate it even more if we stay on topic. How did we go from Oswald and his Carcano to the French and "our current war?"



    montello
    Posted - 01/24/2006 : 11:40:58 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A special on the discovery channel two nights ago had life like torsos duplicating the shot, etc. The "Magic" bullet made the correct wound in JFK, tumbled and went through Connely, then his wrist and harmlessly fell to the ground, which means it could have wound up on the stretcher easy. The bullet was only slightly bent but intact after all that. A two hour program, but well worth it. They didn't take shot after shot but did it only once after a lot of research.

    They put a huge scope on the Carcano, it shot a nice one 3 hole inch group with two holes touching. They also shot a 6.5mm bullet into the END of a log. It went in 42 inches, and when dug out looked near perfect less groove marks!

  20. #20
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    I want a Carcano, but I am not going to turn it into a copy of Oswald's rifle.
    C&Rriflecollector91 "Action Not Words"

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    I know I seen one that had the dark shellac like his did that was marked up in the $8,000 range.
    C&Rriflecollector91 "Action Not Words"

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    What did they do with his Carcano?
    C&Rriflecollector91 "Action Not Words"

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    Can a person see it in a museum or something?
    C&Rriflecollector91 "Action Not Words"

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    A really good read is Mark Fuhrman's book A Simple Act of Murder. The way he approaches the EVIDENCE, as an experienced investigator would in a contemporary case, is refreshing. Bottom line....no conspiracy, no gunman on the grassy knoll, no CIA, no Mob, no Lady Bird Johnson, no Castro, etc, etc, etc. Just a delusional, disturbed individual who committed a murder.

    I agree with Fuhrman's analysis and conclusions except he doesn't believe the "magic bullet" theory and tries to debunk it. His explanation why the "magic bullet" couldn't be true really loses me. It seems he was not aware of the Australian reconstruction effort which proves the "magic bullet" really could have and most likely did happen. In fact, the Australian reconstruction was so good, I bought the DVD from the History Channel to use in training to show what an all-out, proper, scientific and meticulous shooting investigation looks like.

    I have been to Dealy Plaza and the distances are amazing short. IIRC the longest/last shot was around 88 yards and the first shot was around 40(?) yards plus the target was moving away in close to a straight line. When I read statements that is was a difficult shot, etc, etc; I just chuckle.

    That said Fuhrman's books is easy to follow as he disects the evidence. I recommend it.

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    LtBlue: I agree with you.
    Actual distance of the shooting was 88 yards.
    Oswald was a very good shot-his USMC range book shows he got 48 and 49 out of 50 at 200 yards with a Garand, and he also did very well with the carbine-he was no "average" marks man by any means.

    He chose this particular type of rifle and had the opportunity to practice with it,and with the ammo he used.

    All the conspiracy theories are entertaining, but I am convinced Oswald did the whole thing himself.

    mark

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    Default carcano

    I guess the argument goes on and on. I still believe the mafia got kennedy and oswald was, as he said, a patsy.
    but for those who stay with oswald, I need an explanation of:
    1.. While not having shot a carcano, I understand it does NEED a clip to load it and none was found in the book dep. Without the clip, you cannot fire the rifle single shot, 3 aimed shots, in 6 seconds (6 second is correct!)
    2. Oswald shot officer Tippet on his way to themovie theater, they say. And they say they know it becasue they picked uup the shell casings. BUT Oswald had a REVOLVER! Would you shoot a cop and stop and eject the shells from your six shooter before you ran off? Think about it!

    O k so I've stirred up the stuff again. Well, I stay with the mafir theory.

    Tigerfan.

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    You are correct ! This one will be never ending because of all of the theorists who want to believe that it took a well planned conspiracy at the highest level of government or organized crime to eliminate the most powerful man in the world. Unfortunately they are missing physical evidence and credible eyewitness testimony. The only physical evidence pointed to Lee Oswald for a good reason, Lee shot the president.
    The absence of the enbloc clip is not troubling to me at all. The Dallas police first identified the rifle as a Mauser. There is no doubt in my mind that under the stress of the situation the police officer that found the weapon opened the bolt and cleared the chamber. Anyone who has shot a Carcano knows on the last round the enbloc just slips out unnoticed unless you are looking for it. The Dallas Police were not.
    The casings found at the scene of officer Tippet's shooting are also very explainable. Lee was not ejecting rounds, Lee was reloading the pistol. The shell casings were not important enough to stop and retrieve.

    There is so much more to discuss on this subject. I hope we can stem some debate and better understand all the possibilities.

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    As far I know the clip "SMI 952" was still in the rifle when it was discovered, It was correctly mentioned in the report of Lt. J.C. Day, and is now among the evidencies.

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    .

    Oswald was the shooter and the only shooter.
    And he planned the whole thing himself. It was
    his "lucky day".

    Oliver Stone is a propagandist.
    I'll never forgive that f*cker for doing what he did
    with his JFK movie. Presenting a total lie as truth
    and engendered a warped perception of our government
    to a generation of Americans.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNuaf...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pLCJ...eature=related

    .

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    1. Oswald had a marksman's badge. That means you managed to qualify at the bottom of the pile and not hit the rangemaster.. Now keep in mind that was with a MI Garand which is a bit better than a carcano.
    2. There was NO evidence that Oswald EVER practiced with the rifle.
    3. People have gone to great lengths to PROVE that is was possible, possibly a bit too much.
    I really don't know if he did it or not, and since he is dead we will probably never know. Too much of the evidence has been pout under lock and key for long after we are gone. Such as Medical records which for some odd reason have disappeared.

  31. #31
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    .


    You call 48 or 49 upper body hits out of 50 rounds fired
    rapid fire at 200 yards "bottom of the pile" ??

    I call that good enough to hit the same target at 50 to 80
    yards.

    I've looked out of the TSBD 6th floor window at that X
    in the street. I was a frigging chip shot.


    .

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    There was eyewitness testimony from a member of the Dallas gun club who identified Lee Oswald and the carcano rifle. Lee shot the rifle enough to make a far more impressive shot than 88 yds. Lee's rifle qualification was Marine sharpshooter which is far from lacking talent. I did see where the enbloc clip was noted but not photographed in the majority of the famous pictures.
    The one thing I would like to know more than anything else is did Lee use the scope or the iron sights. I would have opted for the iron. I have this exact same rifle and scope and I find it is very difficult to place a well aimed shot with the scope unless you are very still. The first shot could have been with the scope but I would bet the follow ups were the iron sights.

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    Smoker -

    I have been wondering the same thing about the irons.

    I just bought one of these rifles off of Gunbroker to see
    what it's all about first hand. Thank goodness for PRVI brass !



    dxr




    P.S. --


    Here is a link to photocopies of Oswald's Marine Corp score book --

    "Maggie's Drawer's" my ass.

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfki...bits/ce239.htm




    Also, here is a copy of a letter written by A.G. Folsom, Lt. Col. USMC
    about Oswald's rifle training, and that he was rated as Sharp Shooter.

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfki.../anderson1.htm





    Clip in Owald's rifle when found --

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid6.htm






    .





    .
    Last edited by doctorxring; 02-11-2009 at 09:42 PM.

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    DXR,
    Good heads up on the picture of the clip. Another mystery solved !
    As a former Marine, I recall the discussion about Oswald at the rifle range at Paris Island. He was considered very proficient by the primary marksmenship intructors. By then, I had already owned several Carcano rifles including one identical to Lee's. My Mother could have made those shots with 2 hrs. of training.

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    .

    10-4 Smoker

    I was not there, but have Marine friends and I can
    confidently say that NOBODY trains riflery like the USMC.

    dxr

    .

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    Personally I think the evidence points to Oswald as the lone gunman, perhaps aided by others but no hard evidence for that.

    What has me really convinced IS the magic bullet. As you may recall this bullet is reputed to have gone through Kennedy, then Connally before lodging in his thigh where it fell out onto the stretcher and was found later...or was planted.

    Here's the problem with the plant theory, how did they know the bullet path through the bodies ahead of time, how did they know how the bullet would be deformed so that they could fake the dents properly before planting it? They couldn't and yet 40 some years afterwards someone replicated the shot with dummies with a bone structure sitting in the correct positions and the bullet took the same path through the bodies and bounced off the thigh and...lo and behold it had the same dent pattern as the original magic bullet. How could they have known how to fake that bullet before or immediately after the killing?

    Besides which we are expected to believe that Oswald, qualified (annually) as a Marine sharpshooter with an unscoped M1 garand fired at 200, 300 and 600 [actually 500 yds] yards couldn't hit a man sized target with a scoped rifle at 90.
    Last edited by Billofthenorth2; 02-16-2009 at 08:30 PM.
    The surplus of verbiage oft times consummates in a loss of perspicacity!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TC2xTCb_GU

  37. #37
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    .

    Also on the "magic bullet" --

    If it penetrated the (fairly light) resistance of going through
    Kennedy's back/neck and did NOT hit Connally, where did
    it go ?? There would have been damage to the car from a
    bullet strike as it exited Kennedy. Instead it disappeared ??
    It that case it would truly a "magic" bullet, as Bugliosi points
    out in Reclaiming History.

    .

  38. #38

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    Can anyone tell me where I can find a Ordnance optics Inc 4X18 scope??? And side mount??? Any help would be appreciated....

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    The film left little doubt the head shot came from behind, where Oswald was, The only things we know about the rifle is what the FBI told us. There is no doubt the Carcano or any other bolt action military rifle and any moderately skilled rifleman could relatively easily make the shots.

    On the other hand the connection between Ruby and the Chicago Mob (Giancana) is very well established, telephone company records showed they talked every day (long distance was not direct dialing in those days and was expensive). Many confirmed that Tippit and White were regulars at Ruby's bar.

    Press and television at the time reported the rifle was a 7.35 Carcano, well who believes them. But I was 32 years old at the time, a successful engineer and a hunter, so I did take note of such things

    So I have to admit that I believe Chuck Giacana's account of how it happened, it is the only account that doesn't refute any known facts, and it doesn't matter a damn who pulled the trigger of what rifle, it was a simple murder, not really an asassination (political), because somebody was unhappy with someone else. The only question left unanswered, probably because Chuck didn't know, is whether the boys (Bobby and Jack) knew about the deal their dad made with Sam Giancana. If they did they behaved very foolishly, if they didn't the whole thing makes complete sense.

    So I agree with Carcano, some things are simpler than they look, and bad things do happen.
    Last edited by Old Steve; 03-31-2010 at 08:04 PM.

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    Okay. So who was selling 6.5 X 52mm WCC surplus ammo in the period of Spring to Fall of 1963? If a list of those suppliers can be found and records have not all been destroyed then there's a chance of finding a receipt for ammo delivered to Oswald. If it's a large quantity of ammo and the purchase allows for enough time, then this bolsters the view that the man likely practiced a lot. And there's another long shot (if you'll pardon the expression) possibility of evidence recovery still lingering. Oswald must have had items related to the rifle in his posession, but they were essentially absent on search. So he tried to sanitize his quarters of gear related to the rifle. And that means he dumped it somewhere. Somewhere he could get to alone between the time he got home on the day of the assasination and when he was arrested the following day. He probably had some evidence linked to the rifle on his person when he shot Tippett as well. So -- buried? Tossed in a waterway? Dropped in a storm drain? I'd vote for tossed in a waterway personally -- and say recovery now is exceedingly unlikely. But things do turn up. Someone digs a foundation or a body of water dries up or whatever -- and something catches the eye. Here's hoping.

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    There was plenty of ammo around for the rifle in those days, you could buy it nearly anywhere, both for the 7.35 and the 6.5 versions. Who cares?

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    I saw a television "consipiracy theory" style show that made seem possible that Oswald was actually a russian spy cosmetic surgeried replacement for the likely spy oswald who was "sent" to the Soviet Union as a supposed defector. Seems in that same show, they claimed a body exchange of spy for spy was done, some time later, dunno. I believe a good carcano and good ammo is of course deadly, but someone has to be more than just an ex marine, good shooter to get in three shots, like a pro-fessional assassin, or someone trained as such. Nerves of steel, cool calm and collective, and the guy was a crackpot? Imagine what folks would have thought if the rifle had no scope whatever at all, but of course back then most folks had rifles without scopes.
    But of course, the spot he was shooting from was just 100 yards away, he was shooting downhill at a large pie plate size target moving slow or barely at all at one angle, which downhill eliminates alot of gravity drop from projectiles, which is why you always hear of "taking the high ground is good" in military and western movies, its a truth, I was able to get 300+ yards accuracy from my West Hurley 1927A1 semi auto with .45acp, but straight and level I was having more difficulty and having to raise the sights too much for 300 yards.
    I believe that Oswald wasn't stupid since after all he was a ex marine, that he tested his rifle, and that if his scope failed accuracy, he would have removed it and went iron sighted all the way. One thing is suspect though, he spent time in the Soviet Union, there he likely got trained to do this by the commies, if not willing, then unwillingly by brainwashing. But the show I saw sure made an interesting point about Oswald not really coming back from the soviet union alive, except as an imposter trained assassin with plastic surgery to look like the former marine turned crackpot or actual fake defector spy.
    I like to think that Oswald was a pot smoking socialist commie failed marine who envisioned getting back at the world for his small appendages and failures by envisioning a country with socialist commie ideals, universal health care, and a hatred for gun ownership, no freedom nor two party political system, who while high and drunk carried out one of the most dispicable crimes in history, if alive today, he would have been a member of moveon.org, an anti-semetic 9/11 conspiracy theorist, and war protestor, calling folks tea baggers.
    Last edited by AndGunsForAll; 11-08-2010 at 05:43 AM.

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    Old Steve -- the ammo matters for a number of reasons. Firstly, there are numerous credible reports of Oswald developing a high degree of proficiency with that rifle and gaining a reputation on a local range for fast accurate shooting with it. If it can be proven that he purchased a large amount of ammo, that fact would support those statements. Money matters in trying to understand Oswald -- as it does in understanding anything of consequence. Oswald's posessions included some very expensive camera equipment that he really couldn't afford with his chronic job hopping low wage lifestyle. And there is some evidence that the FBI was wiring Oswald money during the time period leading up to the assasination. And no -- I'm not saying they knowingly funded the assasination. They appear to have supplied him with the means to gather intel on domestic pro-communist / pro-Castro groups for them. Large quantities of ammo cost more money, and burning through ammo like there's no tomorrow is an intesting behavior for a guy with little visible means of self-support. What happened to the rest of Oswald's ammo and the shooting / cleaning type gear he certainly would have had is a valid question. I didn't realize that he was apprehended for Tippitt's murder a mere hour and 20 minutes after the JFK assasination. So that means he sanitized his home before the assasination. And that suggests he may have buried or even carefully cached his shooting supplies. Perhaps on or near a property he had regular access to. Hard to say. But if someone turns up a pile of 6.5 Carcano ammo, a rusty cleaning rod and such junk with a backhoe in Dallas some day I hope they stop and find an archeologist.

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    AndGunsForAll,

    Oswald was smart, but he wasn't half as smart as he imagined. And being smart is only one part of being useful to an organization like the KGB. They would have had relatively little interest in a guy like Oswald, because he just wasn't very stable or very well connected. Most spies are members of powerful organizations full of valuable information -- like scientific and industrial academia, other intelligence agencies, political parties in power and the like. A person is of value in providing information on like persons. Did Oswald tell the Soviets what he knew about US intel from his USMC days? Probably. But what Oswald seems to have been more valued for is his later association with US pro-Castro groups. He was likely providing the FBI intel on those groups. But Oswald was a highly duplicitous character. And personally I suspect he always viewed himself as either working for pro-communist interests or as some kind of double agent who is powerful in his own mythology because he ultimately serves only himself. It would be nice to know what he would have had to say about all of this and to have had a good psych eval on the man, but Ruby cheated us of that. Anyway. And the rifle -- plenty accurate enough. And the shooting? Plenty of time for even the five shots I personally think were most likely fired. Wouldn't really take true expertise. Just the kind of practice witnesses state Oswald had already got under his belt.
    Last edited by Begemot; 04-01-2010 at 09:27 AM. Reason: typo

  45. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    398

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    There are some things we know, and some we will never know.
    We know JFK was murdered, we know the shots came from the Book Depository, we know the shooter wanted us to know that , he wouldn’t have been seen in the window if he didn’t . Almost surely only one rifle was used, we don’t know which one, we don’t know who fired it.

    Oswald was almost surely there, he worked there, we do not know who or if anyone else was there, we are reasonably sure that with the Marine qualification Oswald could have made the shot without spending any time practicing, other than checking the sighting. We do not know why he would have wanted to kill John Kennedy

    We know Jack Ruby was employed by Sam Giancana as manager of a Dallas night club owned by the Giancana family, we know Dallas officers Tippit and White were regulars at Ruby’s club, we know Ruby killed Qswald, we do not know why, we do not know who killed Tippit. We do not know how Oswald was found in a theater less than two hours after the shooting.

    We know that the FBI told us many things about the shooting, we know that some of them were lies, we do not which other things they told us were lies.

    We know that JFK’s brother Robert was murdered the night he won the Calif primary and by delegate count the Democrat nomination for President. We do not know who killed him, but we do know he was killed in the ballroom of a hotel owned by the Giancana family.

    So a reasonable inference is that all these events were typical of a gangland vendetta, which by definition is not a political conspiracy. I think that speculation about the things we do not know about a murder almost 50 years ago does not belong on this website, and trying to define copies of a rifle which might have been used is a bit childish.

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