A 1938 dated Spanish Civil War rifle? You decide. [Updated Pictures inside]
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Thread: A 1938 dated Spanish Civil War rifle? You decide. [Updated Pictures inside]

  1. #1
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    Default A 1938 dated Spanish Civil War rifle? You decide. [Updated Pictures inside]

    First, I'd like to say sorry for the long absence. I've been working ALOT lately and finally got the promotion I'd been hoping for, so things have been hectic with training and all that. I find time to browse the board but haven't really posted anything in the last few months. Let's change that today.

    I drove 3 and a half hours to Harrisburg, PA to pick this up at an auction today. My camera is out of commission, but luckily for me the auction house did a good job taking photos. I'll add my own once I can borrow a camera.I have what seems to be the first 1938 dated M91/30 with pretty good evidence to support it. Let's get the bad out of the way first. Someone decided to bend and swoop the bolt handle back. Not the worst thing bubba could do, but still annoying. I'm hoping I can find someone who can work it back to it's original shape.

    Now the first. The rifle is a 1938 Tula serial number YM2263, completely mismatched. The bolt looks to be all Izhevsk and just swapped from a different rifle. The butt plate is a bit rusted, but appears to be Tula in origin based on the font. Floorplate is also Izhevsk. The barreled receiver has a very nice patina to it, with slight pitting covering the majority of the barrel and receiver. The bore on first glance looks dark and dirty, but I see hope in it. I'll end up running a brush down it sometime.

    There is also a complete lack of any import mark.

    Ok, now on the the Spanish features. The first thing I noticed right of the bat were the wire hangers. This rifle has them on both the front and rear sling slots, indicating they most likely were never removed. Obviously they could be from a few different countries. They are a fairly ticker wire, comparable to some of my other SCW rifles. The rear one has the wire bent in as I've noticed on numerous examples I've seen online. The front one has a bt thinner of a wire, but again similar to other SCW rifles.

    The next thing I noticed was the Spanish handguard. It's all wood, with a few brass pins reenforcing it on both ends. It looks like every other Spanish replacement handguard I've run across. I've never seen a similar style on any other M91/30's, so it seems safe to say it's likely Spanish.

    The argument could be made that even if it is a Spanish handguard, someone could have added it later. I'd counter this by saying the fact that the front wire hanger is on means that unless someone also added those hangers stateside, this rifle is in the same condition it was imported in (minus that damn bolt!!!).

    I also have a feeling the stock is a Spanish replacement. While I have less experience with Spanish made stocks, the wood grain on this rifle matches the Spanish handguard to a "T". I've compared it to an unmodified Soviet made pre-war stock and there is quite the difference between the two. The stock on this rifle is very thin. It doesn't seem to be sanded to me and I think this is how the stock has been since placed on the rifle.

    All these facts lead me to believe, in my opinion, that I have a 1938 dated SCW M91/30. I didn't think it was possible to find such a horse, but I figured there could always be a chance. I suppose it could be Balkan in origin, but I've never seen a Spanish style handguard on a Balkan rifle.

    In any case this is now the pride of my Spanish Civil War collection and something I don't think I'll run across again. I've never seen a 1938 dated SCW rifle that had this much evidence backing it up.

    Please share your opinions with me, as I'd love to hear them! Thanks guys!






























































  2. #2
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    Stock is not factory. Definitely SCW, but i dont think the bolt mod is, probably happened state side

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    Veeerrry interesting. The bolt should be a pretty straightforward fix.







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    I have read a forum member account of a shipment of 1938 M91/30's that were destined for Spain, but were never recorded as delivered. I can't reference that account, and I do not know the source of the shipment information.

    Don't know if that helps! The rifle surely looks the part.

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    Nice grab, glad you got it. Sure looks like any other SCW, but that date...nice! I've not seen any '38 dated rifles that look so much like an SCW rifle either. Looking forward to any more observations

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    pgaplayerless:

    After looking it over more, I completely agree. Here are a few observations I have already noticed. I tried taking the magazine out and had a great difficulty doing so. Seemed an oddly tight fit to me. Result of the Spanish stock?

    I also realized the barrel band posts actually stick out to the other side of the stock. I thought this seemed weird, but didn't realize until I got home and saw none of my other rifles did this.

    Ol' Relic:

    I hope it is. It's just swept back and nothing too bad. I'm gonna try and find someone local who can do the job.

    martin08:

    Gerald Howson's book "Arms For Spain" (essential reading for SCW enthusiasts) does mention 1938 shipments. So it has always been in the realm of possibility, but I'd never seen a 1938 dated rifle with enough possible Spanish features to make me believe they existed.

    racerguy00:

    Thanks! Appreciate the comment. One observation I do have is the the inside of the receiver, while not completely blued, does have a good deal of very worn dark finish. It almost seems like the rifle itself is covered in this finish, including all the way up the handguard. Since this handguard cannot be taken off without the front hanger being removed, I'd be inclined to say this happened before the rifle was put back together in whatever country it is from. Photos will help explain this once I have them.

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    Looks SCW to me.

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    I was watching this one too and was thinking of bidding on it but the 38 was bothering me so I was thinking Balkan. But I did notice the handguard looked SCW. Then the stock bothered me as it almost looked finnish because of the grain and the centered cross bolt. I looked hard to see any SCW marks and since I didn't see it I passed, that and the bolt bothered me too. It is a nice pick up whatever it is and I lean heavily to SCW. Glad a board member got it.

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    how would one repair that bolt?

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    Vise it and put a lot of pressure on it while heating it up with a torch is the only thing I can think of. But that's my inner Bubba speaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaxspore View Post
    how would one repair that bolt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaxspore View Post
    how would one repair that bolt?
    vise, heat and a pipe

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    interesting.. good to know.

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    Did you pull the buttplate to check for an ink stamp?

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    Easy fix on that bolt, any shop guy/smith with an oxy-acetylene torch/rosebud can fix it quickly & one would never know it was bubba'd.

    There is a member here who has a really cool Spanish made/replaced stock & it has nice striping!

    Pahtu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaxspore View Post
    how would one repair that bolt?
    Use MAPP; no reason to go any hotter. Very tightly tie a thicker copper wire around the base of the bolt handle at it's junction with the bolt body, with the rest of the wire not touching the bolt. This will transfer excess heat away from the bolt body. Using a pipe with an inside diameter slightly larger than the knob is a good tool for actually bending it back in place. It goes without saying that the vise should have some kind of soft clamp on it. I just went through this awhile back. It did not turn out absolutely flawless but still looks a hell of a lot better than it used to look from Bubba's handiwork.Click image for larger version.†

Name:	DSCF2972.jpg†
Views:	71†
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ID:	745804You can see where dŪpshŪt cut a V into the handle to facilitate bending it.

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    After reading your first post last night, I was going to check my references today. I see you have already checked "Arms for Spain."

    I'm ready to agree with the SCW consensus.

    Very nice Mosin.

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    I have not read "Arms for Spain." Where is a good source to obtain a copy?

    Thanks

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    Right here is a good place. I bought my copy off of Amazon too and it was about $5.

    http://www.amazon.com/Arms-Spain-Unt.../dp/0312241771

    It's essential reading for anyone interested in the Spanish Civil War and the vast amount of weapons sent to support either side. My copy is always sitting on my desk, ha!

  20. #19
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    Thanks!

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    I look forward to more pics. Nice to see you posting again.
    Please add information about your SCW Mosin-Nagant here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...agant-Database

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    Quote Originally Posted by mat!_SW View Post
    I look forward to more pics. Nice to see you posting again.

    +1


    Glad to see you back too, Dan!


    (Time to update that ol' SCW website, heh heh?? )
    MY FIRST TEN MOSIN NAGANTS:
    1925 Izhevsk m1891/30 Ex-Dragoon- "Katalin"
    1939 Tula m1891/30 Lam. Stock- "Irena"
    1934 Tikka m27- "Tiina-Rakel"
    1938 Tula m1891/30 Finn Captured- "Nainen Sodassa"
    1955 Type 53 Carbine- "Thu Huong"
    1944 Tikka m1891/30- "Isošiti"
    1942 VKT m1891- "Mummo"
    1916 Tula PTG m1891 Finn'd- "Petra"
    1967 No-Maker m39- "Tuuli"
    1926-8 Bohler-Stahl m24- "Vanha Rouva"

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    It looks SCW to me too.

  24. #23
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    Ya, I really do need to update that when I get some time. Lots of people have been submitting serial numbers and all that, but I haven't updates my list in quite some time. Ha! I'll get on that and taking some photos too.

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    Nice rifle! Was going to bid but online buyers premium Nd 60 dollars to ship killed it for me

  26. #25
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    Here's some new photos. Not the best, but an upstate NY snowstorm kinda ruined the chance to photograph outside. Haha!

    Full Rifle



    Barre Shank



    Foorplate



    Buttplate



    Bolt









    The stock is very thin, but not sanded.



    Under the handguard (rear)



    Under the handguard (front)



    Handguard









    This is the strange "T" marking on the barrel shank



    Crossbolt (Right side)



    Crossbolt (Left side)



    Inside the receiver. It almost seems like it was blued at one point.



    Rear sight



    Barrel bands



    The nosecap is marked "53". I can't find a manufacturer mark on it though.



    The barrel band pin shows through on the other side.





    Sling hangers







    I don't have my other rifles to compare it to, but the stock is considerably thinner than a normal M91/30 stock.



    The only possible cartouche on the entire stock.



    Again, the stock seems very thin.



    Last edited by lthilsdorf; 02-09-2014 at 04:00 PM.

  27. #26
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    Ater seeing your new pics I am leaning away from being a Finn and more to being a SCW rifle.

    Are there any other known examples of spanish hand gaurds where they used screws rather than rivets on the hand gaurd ends?


    P.S. I am having issues seeing all your pics, don't know if it's on my end or not.
    "The only real power comes out of a long rifle."- Joseph Stalin

  28. #27
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    Ya, some of the photos didn't resize. I'm working on it right now, haha!

    In terms of the handguard, I've actually seen very few photos of the underside of Spanish replacement examples, so really I have nothing to compare it to at this point.

    Edit:

    Should be fixed, though I can't get some of them in the right orientation. Oh well. I've never had this much trouble uploading before.
    Last edited by lthilsdorf; 02-09-2014 at 04:01 PM.

  29. #28
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    Very irregular lines on the grasping grooves. Doesn't look like a Soviet or Finn stock at all.

  30. #29
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    The finger grooves seem extra long too. Pic of my SCW replacement hand guard.....frumunda

    Click image for larger version.†

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  31. #30
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    Thanks Denny. I have photos of yours as one of my few examples, but couldn't find any close up shots.

  32. #31
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    Here's an example of a SCW home made handguard. Off an old 1934 Izhevsk 91/30.





    Interesting nose cap marks







    And the front sight. I believe there was recent discussion about this type of front sight as well.

    MOSIN PRIME!

    Always looking for interesting Imperial Mosins! Antique M91s, 91/38s and Imperial dated Nagant revolvers. PM me if you may have one you may be looking to trade/sell.

  33. #32
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    Nice photos of the handguard Iron_Colonel!

    Alot of Spanish replacements follow the same mold of 3 brass pins supporting the handguard. The handguard on my rifle seems the same except for the fact that they are screws.

  34. #33
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    Dan,

    I sent you photos of my Spanish-made m91/30 handguard (along with a lot of other photos of my SCW Mosin for your website)...did you ever get them?...if so, post pics of the handguard pics I sent...I think you will see a pattern emerging...


    PLUS...I am REALLY looking forward to your website update!...
    MY FIRST TEN MOSIN NAGANTS:
    1925 Izhevsk m1891/30 Ex-Dragoon- "Katalin"
    1939 Tula m1891/30 Lam. Stock- "Irena"
    1934 Tikka m27- "Tiina-Rakel"
    1938 Tula m1891/30 Finn Captured- "Nainen Sodassa"
    1955 Type 53 Carbine- "Thu Huong"
    1944 Tikka m1891/30- "Isošiti"
    1942 VKT m1891- "Mummo"
    1916 Tula PTG m1891 Finn'd- "Petra"
    1967 No-Maker m39- "Tuuli"
    1926-8 Bohler-Stahl m24- "Vanha Rouva"

  35. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by themosinator View Post
    Dan,

    I sent you photos of my Spanish-made m91/30 handguard (along with a lot of other photos of my SCW Mosin for your website)...did you ever get them?...if so, post pics of the handguard pics I sent...I think you will see a pattern emerging...


    PLUS...I am REALLY looking forward to your website update!...
    Hmmm, I'm not seeing them. It's possible I accidentally deleted the message, as I cleared my inbox awhile ago by mistake and lost a bunch of info. Ha!

    Resend them to me: [email protected]

    Thanks!

  36. #35
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    Here's the original post!

    Scavenge at will, PLEASE!!

    BORROW for your website, PLEASE!!

    I think mine is another valuable addition to your information collection (read: database)

    PLUS...check out that handguard!!

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...ght=Lina+Odena
    MY FIRST TEN MOSIN NAGANTS:
    1925 Izhevsk m1891/30 Ex-Dragoon- "Katalin"
    1939 Tula m1891/30 Lam. Stock- "Irena"
    1934 Tikka m27- "Tiina-Rakel"
    1938 Tula m1891/30 Finn Captured- "Nainen Sodassa"
    1955 Type 53 Carbine- "Thu Huong"
    1944 Tikka m1891/30- "Isošiti"
    1942 VKT m1891- "Mummo"
    1916 Tula PTG m1891 Finn'd- "Petra"
    1967 No-Maker m39- "Tuuli"
    1926-8 Bohler-Stahl m24- "Vanha Rouva"

  37. #36
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    Seems to have the same style as most other SCW handguards I've come across. Alot of them actually don't have the rivets in them. Are those ones held in by screws as well under the wood?

  38. #37
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    Interesting update:

    I walked into a local shop today and saw they had taken in a 1939 Tula M91/30. Bubba had gotten to the stop and sanded it pretty hard and glued a little plastic apple on one side. The bolt was also unnumbered and had a Sako cocking piece (I don't think this bolt was original to the rifle).

    In any case, it had the same "T" mark that this rifle has, except it was on the receiver. I'm going to go back and see if the shop will let me take a photo of it. I'm wondering if this mark is something unique to Tula rifles in a certain timeframe. I feel like it's not a refrub mark, as it's pretty clear my possible SCW rifle was never refurbed.

  39. #38
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    It was a nice day today, so I went and got some photos outside of several rifles, including this one. I feel confident in saying this is a Spanish Civil War rifle, but I can't say with 100% certainty. I've just never seen an all wooden handguard on anything but a Spanish rifle, and the stock itself is certainly not from Russia or any other country I'm familiar with. I tried to get the weird almost tiger striping that can be found in some areas. It's certainly not a Finn stock though, and is very, very thin. I took a photo of how much space is between the barrel band and stock, and how the barrel band pop through on the other side of the stock.

    Thoughts?




































  40. #39
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    Sure looks like a Walnut stock to me. I was skeptical at first, but really have no idea what else to call it.
    Please add information about your SCW Mosin-Nagant here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...agant-Database

  41. #40
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    You make a very good argument for it being a SCW rifle, and nothing I see makes me think any different.
    Great rifle !
    "The only real power comes out of a long rifle."- Joseph Stalin

  42. #41
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    With all the recent Spanish Civil War rifles being posted, and numerous rifles I've bought the last few months, I finally started updating my Spanish Civil War Mosin Nagant site!

    I started off posting a more detailed section about this rifle with my arguments as to why I feel it's a rifle with Spanish origin, as well as a few counter arguments against it. Hopefully I'll do a bit more updating in the next few days. Thanks!

    http://scwmosin.weebly.com/a-1938-dated-scw-m9130.html

  43. #42
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    While looking over the rest of my SCW collection today, I decided to make an effort to look under the stock of this rifle and see what I couldn't find. I managed to get the hand guard off and look inside the stock channel. There is some writing on the inside of both the hand guard and the stock, but besides what looks like the number "69", I can't see anything else. In-letting doesn't look as crude as I expected, but some areas are a bit rough. I'm still not 100% sure one way or the other on this rifle, but I figured I'd post this little update. It's the closest I've seen to a real deal 1938 dated SCW M91/30.





































  44. #43
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    Remind me again why was the rear sight pinned?

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