Spanish Model 1893 Mauser
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Thread: Spanish Model 1893 Mauser

  1. #1

    Default Spanish Model 1893 Mauser

    Alright guys...I've had good luck finding out what I bought from these forums before. I need your help once again. At the gun show in Biloxi today I got a Spanish Model 1893 Mauser. The markings are very faint. It was made by Loewe in Berlin (very faint, but you can see the "Lo"). It's chambered in 7mm. Is it possible to tell what exactly I have and determine if the rifle was used in the Spanish-American War?

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    Last edited by Kdwright5407; 03-07-2015 at 02:40 PM.

  2. #2
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    Interarms purchased every M1893 Spanish Mauser in inventory from Spain in the 50's/60's, much more likely it came to US then than in 1899? Used in war? Maybe?

    Maybe?

    Jack

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    Bannermans claimed to have bought all the Mausers from the S/A war,and sold them all over the world.Its possible Spain may have bought some back from Bannermans.Nevertheless,Uncle Sam never gave them anything back,except prisoners.So a genuine war gun would need to have a long history in the US,and be a documented bringback or souvenir.Regards John.

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    Not exactly true. As I recall, initially there were terms of truce at I believe Santa de Cuba? where certain arms had already been captured and/or surrendered. Later this local ceasefire was extended and those arms already captured/surrendered are those taken back to Springfield.... The terms of surrender provided for the Spanish troops and their remaining SMALL ARMS to be transported back to Spain by the US(Spain had no ships left).

    It is my also understanding that an earlier the decision had been made by Spain that foreign made rifles would be sent to the colonial forces and Spanish made(Oviedo) made rifles kept home. If true, the Spanish order of battle* would suggest that almose ALL German (maybe FN?) made Mausers would have been in Cuba etc. Since only a small % of the total made found their way to the US, the vast majority of them went back to Spain via US transport in 1899-190x. They then came to the US in 1959-60 or so....

    So is would seem possible that most Mauser/Loewe made M1893's served in the war but it can't be exactly proved except for a few sold by dealers in the early 1900's with a certificate. I've seen exactly ONE of those. There should also be rifles sold at auction with BOS from the US but I haven't heard of one)

    (Bannerman had purchased the remainder of the rifles not sold at auction by the army @ Springfield)

    Jack

    *TOTAL NUMBER OF SPANISH TROOPS IN CUBA (Based on Spanish documents at
    the beginning of the war)
    :
    Regular units:
    Staffs 96 officers / 0 men
    Infantry 2,245 officers/ 130,146 men
    Cavalry 345 officers/ 8,019 men
    Artillery 170 officers / 5,083 men
    Pioneers 118 officers/ 5,330 men
    Medical Personal 490 officers/ 1,945 men
    Train units 249 officers/ 1,850 men
    Guardia Civil 165 officers / 4,293 men
    TOTAL 3,139 officers/ 156,666 men

    Volunteers Units:
    Infantry 2,895 officers/ 60,865 men
    Cavalry 1,202 officers / 13,594 men
    Artillery 293 officers / 3,830 men
    Pioneers 68 officers / 1,373 men
    Naval infantry 137 officers / 2,371 men
    TOTAL 4,595 officers / 82,033 men

    COMBINED TOTAL: 7,724 officers/238,699 men
    Last edited by mman; 03-08-2015 at 08:00 AM.

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    Your rifle was made during 1894-1896. The new serial number and faint receiver markings make it impossible to date closer than this. It was "used" during the Spanish-American War period, almost certainly outside of Spain, although that "use" might have been in a rack somewhere. That would make it a "possible" SAW rifle which is as close to precise as you are going to get.
    Every post I make is made with a request for corrections. I'm here to learn.

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    Bill


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  7. #6

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    Thanks guys. I think I got a decent deal on it. The history behind these rifles is pretty damn cool. Once I get back to my home base (TDY) and into a home (we are buying a home), I will take it apart and hopefully find a few more markings and get better pictures.

  8. #7

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    I've been trying to google to no-avail. Who refurb'd these rifles and scrubbed the receivers and re-numbered them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kdwright5407 View Post
    I've been trying to google to no-avail. Who refurb'd these rifles and scrubbed the receivers and re-numbered them?
    Spain
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  10. #9

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    Any idea when? Why would they scrub their own rifles? Sorry, I've been trying to look online but apparently am bad at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kdwright5407 View Post
    Any idea when? Why would they scrub their own rifles? Sorry, I've been trying to look online but apparently am bad at it.
    I don't know if it was before or after the Spanish Civil War that it was rebuilt by Spain. It may be that the receiver was scrubbed because it was rusty and a new serial number was stamped because the old one was lost when the receiver was scrubbed. Some were scrubbed, some were not.

    The rifles remained in the posession of Spain until they were sold to Interarms.

    Perhaps John Wall will have more information on that.
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    I think Bill nailed it? The original receiver ring markings were rather light and I suspect simply disappeared during refinishing on some and not others? Whater, not really a mystery. Maybe?

    Jack

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    Quote Originally Posted by mman View Post
    I think Bill nailed it? The original receiver ring markings were rather light and I suspect simply disappeared during refinishing on some and not others? Whater, not really a mystery. Maybe?

    Jack
    Also, the refinishing of various rifles may have been done at different times and different locations in Spain. Maybe with some different procedures.
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    Folks,
    The Model 1893 Spanish Mauser is among the most refurbished and rebuilt Mauser rifles known. The first rebuilds took place in the USA when Bannerman contracted Springfield Armory to take the lesser condition SAW-captured rifles and refinish and rebuild them for public sale. This involved canabalizing hundreds of incomplete and damaged rifles. SA was also contracted to sporterize many rifles as well. These rifles were then added to the Bannerman catalogues where they stayed for many years. These have distinctly shortened fore-stocks cut back to the lower barrel band, and probably used black paint instead of blued metal. Few of these are ever seen today although I have one that looks like the adverisement in the Bannerman's catalogs.

    Spain fought three large war between 1898 and 1939. These involved so many infantry and cavalry troops that their weapons had to have undergone a major repair and restoration effort to put these weapons back into the hands of peacetime troops. The first of these was of course the Spanish American War, which (in the USA) included weapons surrendered to US Forces, as well as rifles legally carried by Spanish personnel back to Spain. When estimating the numbers surrendered Mausers, don't forget that these rifles came from both Cuba and the Phillipines. The Phillipines rifles were also bought by Bannermans and resold in the US.

    After the SAW, Spain was involved in a long, punishing and expensive war in Spanish Morocco (present day Kingdom of Morocco), the Rif War of 1921 to 1927. In the first large battle of the war, the Battle of Annual, the Spanish were slaughtered, losing over 20,000 troops dead with all their equipment. More defeats followed before their use of mustard gas and French intervention ended the war. There is a famous picture of the Rif leader, Abdel Krim, sittiing in a house in front of a Spanish Mauser hanging on the wall behind him. When the Rif War ended, Spain had many thousands of rifles to replace and repair. How many stocks have we seen with an "R" stamped in the Oviedo cartouche?

    Finally, there is the largest of all of Spain's wars, the Spanish Civil War, which observation tells us had an enormous arms repair program following the conclusion of hostilities.

    When we add to this the post WW II home gunsmithing fever for "restoring", converting and bubblating old military rifles, it's almost impossible to identify who converted any single rifle.

    If ever there is such a thing as "collective guilt" in the gun sporterizing world, it's with these rifles: private owners, corporations and governments, all had a hand in this on a grand scale. And 120 years later, its still going on. On the other hand, as Jack told me years ago, it only makes our original rifles more valuable!
    Regards,
    John

    April 1: Here are photos of some Spanish Mausers, one made in 1896, plus the Bannerman ad (circa 1905) for sporterized M1893's.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails $(KGrHqVHJFYFG93wVJ72BR4r!cwVZg~~60_57.JPG   IMG_1193a.jpg   IMG_1206a.jpg   DSCN9432.jpg   DSCN9435A.JPG   DSCN9423.jpg  

    DSCN9431.jpg   DSCN9424.jpg   DSCN9448.JPG   dscn9478.jpg   DSCN9447.jpg  
    Last edited by John Wall; 04-01-2015 at 07:37 PM. Reason: sp

  15. #14

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    Wow. Thanks for the history lesson! It would still be cool to know for sure if the rifle was used in either the SAW or the SCW...and I guess the receiver scrubbing hints at it, but there is no definitive way to know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kdwright5407 View Post
    Wow. Thanks for the history lesson! It would still be cool to know for sure if the rifle was used in either the SAW or the SCW...and I guess the receiver scrubbing hints at it, but there is no definitive way to know.
    It's more like "How could it not have been used in the SCW?"
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    The surrender agreement of Spanish troops in Cuba granted them "the honors of war", an archaic formula that specified that they left "with drums beating, flags flying and bullets in mouth"... i.e. by agreement all Spanish troops were repatriated at the expense of the US and they kept their arms. If they were unarmed, they had to be rearmed. Thus, the Spanish '93 (and Remington Rolling Blocks) sent to Springfield were those that were extra to the requirement that Spanish troops be sent home armed. The machinery from the Havana arsenal was also sent to Spain. The Spanish rifles were not sold until 1903 and while its true the Francis Bannerman bought most of them, he didn't buy all of them by any means. As John has said, numbers of Spanish rifles were rebuilt at the Springfield Armory so some mixed numbers are likely. What isn't likely is any change known to have been made in Spain after 1898. It would be impossible to identify a Spanish rifle that went back to Spain even if it was old enough to have been in Cuba.
    Last edited by JV Puleo; 03-17-2015 at 09:20 AM.

  18. #17

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    It's found these articles...gives some good background behind the rifle.

    http://www.shootingtimes.com/long-gu...1892mr_200812/

    http://www.spanamwar.com/spanishmauser.htm

    http://www.gunnews.com/model-1893-sp...er-7mm-7x57mm/

    Any other good sources?
    Last edited by Kdwright5407; 03-16-2015 at 08:45 PM.

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    The book Mauser Military Rifles of the World by Robert Ball
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    There is another fly in the ointment. I have not been able to find it again but I once read an article in "Man at Arms" about the Bannerman purchase of the Spanish rifles. There were indeed rifles offered and sold by Bannerman and other dealers but this article suggested that the bulk of the rifles @ Springfield were transferred to Bannerman on paper only and the US actually provided them to the rebel forces in Panama.........?

    Jack

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    The book Mauser Military Rifles of the World by Robert Ball
    I just bought the e-version of the book. There's a lot of good info. Kinda miffed that he didn't include any info on the Turkish M38 long rifle...only the short rifle.

    Any other good Mauser/mil surplus history books?

    I mausers I have are: m1938 Turk long rifle, Chilean 1912-61 (NATO), and this one. I have also owned a Russian captured k98 that was dura coated before I got it (before I knew better) but traded it for a Savage made Enfield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kdwright5407 View Post
    Any other good Mauser/mil surplus history books?
    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-about-Mausers
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    Thanks. I saw that thread as soon as I hit the send button.

  24. #23

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    Anyone know wether I can get a correct bayonet? I can get a cleaning rod from libertytreecollectors.com, but haven't found bayonets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kdwright5407 View Post
    Anyone know wether I can get a correct bayonet? I can get a cleaning rod from libertytreecollectors.com, but haven't found bayonets.
    The bayonets are not rare, nor should they be expensive. There is more than one type that will fit. The more period correct one may read Toledo 1894 and or "Artilleria" The auction sites seem to have them regularly.

  26. #25

    Default Spanish Model 1893 Mauser

    I read that the long rifles had short bayonets and the short rifles had the long ones? I think I have seen both, unless they were labeled wrong...which is entirely possible on the EBay.
    Last edited by Kdwright5407; 03-22-2015 at 09:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kdwright5407 View Post
    I read that the long rifles had short bayonets and the short rifles had the long ones? I think I have seen both, unless they were labeled wrong...which is entirely possible on the EBay.
    You are correct that the long rifles, like yours, had the M1893 (short) bayonet. I was thinking you had a M1916 short rifle; guess I got my threads mixed up.

    Gross misidentification is often found on Ebay which is how you can sometimes get deals and the occasional steal.
    Last edited by geladen; 03-22-2015 at 02:08 PM.
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    The short bayonets often read Toledo and 1894.

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    The M1893 bayonets were made in Germany and Spain. Some Spanish bayonets were marked Toledo. I would prefer to put a German bayonet with a Loewe rifle.
    Every post I make is made with a request for corrections. I'm here to learn.

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  30. #29

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    Finally got around to taking her apart and cleaning her. The barrel matches the receiver, even though the receiver was scrubbed a bit and the number portion of the serial re-stamped. The prefix is a B. There are a few other various markings, but not too many. The bolt and the rear sight are a mismatch, but with potentially having been used in three wars and refurbished in between, I would expect that.

  31. #30

    Default Spanish Model 1893 Mauser

    There is a very faint number written in the stock under the barrel. It's shown in the first couple of pictures. Almost looks like a 4151 but it's incomplete.
    Last edited by Kdwright5407; 04-01-2015 at 06:50 AM.

  32. #31

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    This has been one of the most informative (and enjoyable) threads we have ever had on Mauser Military Rifles here at Gunboards. Thanks to Jack, John, Joe, Bill and all other participants. Kdwright5407, aren't you glad you got this one? Keep up the good work everyone.

    It is now a stickie.

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    I'd love to know the article. If you can remember the title or the author, or even the basic subject, I can find it. I also remember something about this but, as I remember, it was an accusation made by someone in congress that was opposed to TR's Panama policy. The accusation was that the Ordnance Department had furnished the Spanish rifles to the Panamanian revolutionaries and it was answered that they had sold them to Bannerman and had no idea what he had subsequently done with them. I don't think there was much too it. That some of these rifles ended up in Panama is likely but so also did a large number of Rolling Blocks and these clearly didn't originate with the Ordnance Department. Its more likely that a quantity of rifles were sold by Bannerman for this purpose but that the money came from either Panamanian or private sources.

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    Finally got around to taking her apart and cleaning her. The barrel matches the receiver, even though the receiver was scrubbed a bit and the number portion of the serial re-stamped. The prefix is a B. There are a few other various markings, but not too many. The bolt and the rear sight are a mismatch, but with potentially having been used in three wars and refurbished in between, I would expect that.
    It looks like this rifle underwent a lot of refurbishment in Spanish arsenals, like most other Spanish M93's. What i can see:

    About 1916, the rear sight was changed to the Spanish type (round button)

    During or after the Spanish civil war (1936-39), she was refurbished in a (most probably) Spanish arsenal:
    - the barrel was exchanged (with an already used barrel), and probably headspace adjusted. This is visible, since the barrel serial# is on a 2 o'clock position, not on the left side (9 o'clock, next to the receiver serial#). I've seen this kind of barrel change before on other Spanish M93.
    The new barrel was probably Oviedo make: the fonts of its serial# (especially '4') don't match to Loewe or Mauser make (see John's pics in post #13 above)
    - The original barrel serial# might have been B854, the '0' seems to be added to get a 4-digit #
    - the original serial# on the receiver was scrubbed off, and the receiver re-stamped with the barrel's 4-digit #. Remains of the 'star of David' Loewe inspection mark are still visible, the 'rings of Saturn' mark is missing.
    Please check, if traces of the old serial are still visible, above the new serial.
    - got an Oviedo bolt, out of mixed parts. The striker piece has the usual Oviedo inspection mark (cross in a circle). The 'N' on the bolt handle, i've also seen on Oviedo bolts (i'll confirm this next week).
    - got a new stock, with the serial# pencil-marked inside stock and handguard.

    This kind of refurbishment is quite usual for Spanish Mausers, due to the heavy wear in Spanish civil war: they had to re-use gun parts, and didn't care for matching serials. I have no clue if she has been in Cuba. There are no traces visible which would confirm use in Cuba.

    hope this won't disappoint too much.
    merry Easter, Chris

  35. #34

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    Awesome info Chris! I know we can't tell for sure about use in the SAW, but from what I have read in this thread and maybe elsewhere, the Spanish sent the German made Mausers overseas during the war, and kept the Spanish made rifles in Spain. If you use that info, the rifle COULD have seen use in either Cuba or the Philippines. But that's all conjecture.

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    The Germans are really sticky when it comes to making things to spec, so the first tip that are looking at a referb rifle is the faint markings! You can bet the markings were good and deep when it left Germany! Also, the caliber should be 7mm mauser! If it is anything else, then it's not right for the SAW period. Many, if not most, were converted to 7.62 mm (.308) back in the 50s or 60s. The Spainish rebuilt their mausers many times, due to political differences with the Allied powers. The last rebuild converted them to FR 7 (1893 actions) or FR 8 (1898 actions) so that the muzzle end would look like the CETME assault rifle, then the best military rifle in the world! Franco was under the impression that the allies wanted the end of his Facist dictatorship and considered that lots of Spanish troops armed with CETMES would buy him time. I remember seeing multiple photos of Spanish troops armed with a "Mystery" rifle that appeared to be very advanced and unlike anything else, back in the 50s. Rumors were that it was a Nazi design that somehow got away at the end of WW2. Later, the West Germans, got rights to the design and called it the G3.

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