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Share those Zouaves !

16K views 51 replies 26 participants last post by  adamrmarino 
#1 ·
Ill start -

Defarbed 1863 Remington "Zouave" - Thanks to doby for the chance to purchase it.







 
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#5 ·
i have owned several zouaves over the years and alway liked the smoke and fire, but when i bought a TC big bore i sold them. last year a friend was selling this short rifle and i bought it.its a two banded 26" barrel with no bayonet lug and a higher front sight and a williams peep sight rear sight and boy does it shoot mimi balls with 65grs fff and a 575213 mini with the hollow base just filled with crisco right before being loaded. its a republic arms co. dayton ohio importer-seller, antonio zoli gardone v.t. italy, p.a.r.a. #13514. eastbank.
 
#10 ·
I too have a Jager[ proof XX so about 1964].I bought it new at an auction around 1972,so it was unsold for a fair while.Used to shoot 4"groups then,I took it to the range a short while ago,was told the young guys dont like corrosive smoke blowing on their $6000 scopes.Also new restrictions on blackpowder use at the range,so back in the safe for another forty years.Incidentally,Jager has reduced operations over the years,and is now a gunshop.Why didnt they stamp an eagle on lock,I know Remington stopped them from using the name.My lock is colored like yours but is not hardened,nor is the hammer.Never had a problem with the lock,though.Regards John.
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#13 ·
Excellent find !

Zouave was the title given to certain light infantry regiments in the French Army, normally serving in French North Africa between 1831 and 1962. The name was also adopted during the 19th century by units in other armies, such as volunteer regiments raised for service in the American Civil War and Brazilian free black volunteers in the Paraguayan War.[SUP][1][/SUP] The distinctive appearance of such units was given by the zouave uniform, which included short open-fronted jackets, baggy trousers (serouel), and often sashes and oriental head gear.
 
#14 ·
Zouave was the title given to certain light infantry regiments in the French Army, normally serving in French North Africa between 1831 and 1962. The name was also adopted during the 19th century by units in other armies, such as volunteer regiments raised for service in the American Civil War and Brazilian free black volunteers in the Paraguayan War.[SUP][1][/SUP] The distinctive appearance of such units was given by the zouave uniform, which included short open-fronted jackets, baggy trousers (serouel), and often sashes and oriental head gear.
Correct.

 
#15 ·
The 1863 Remington rifle having any association with “Zouave” troops is pure speculation bordering on fantasy.

Remington did enter into one “regular model” US 1861 rifle-musket contract on August 20, 1862 but they made no deliveries on it. Instead, having all the machinery on hand from the earlier US 1841 contracts, Remington agreed to make 12,500 modified 1841 rifles in .58 with bayonet lugs. These are referred to variously as the Remington 1862 or 1863 contract rifle, depending on the contract or the delivery date.

The contracts for the M1863 Rifle have been viewed as something of a reward to Remington for having undercut the revolver prices of Colt with the M1861 revolver (erroneously referred to as Model 1858 per the patent date) Plus, the rifle Remington decided to make, while similar in appearance to the US 1841 rifle, was entirely different in detail and conformed to neither the M1841 nor the M1855 Rifle.

As a result of the revolver contracts, Remington was not able to make the first batch of 500 until April 1863. And then up to 1,000 a month, but only getting 7301 delivered. Worried that they had failed the contract, Remington sought a revised contract on December 13, 1863 for 2500 at $17.00 per stand with a final delivery of 1500 on January 8, 1864.

By the time the final deliveries were made, the Ordnance department was no longer as desperate for infantry arms. As these rifles were not really needed by the government, it appears that the entire delivery was crated and warehoused, presumably at the Watervlet Arsenal, and sold after the War as surplus. As such, there are no records of any Remington 1863 contract rifles being issued to troops during the Civil War.

In the 60’s the 1863 Remington was one of the first reproduction muskets offered to the public and they were popular among reenactors. There is hobby lore of a Zouave regiment getting them that has never (yet) been documented. Hence the hobby and collector nickname of "Zouave" rifle.

The painting of the 5th NY Fire Zouaves in all likelihood depicts M1841’s with the saber bayonet modifications as the Battle of Gaines Mill predates the manufacture or, delivery of any 1862/3 Remington.
 
#16 · (Edited)
The 1863 Remington rifle having any association with “Zouave” troops is pure speculation bordering on fantasy.
never said it was WPNsman. I figured the use of "" in my opening post highlighted that.

To clarify - I know the history.. the term zouave in association with the 1863 was strictly used as a selling point. It was not issued during the civil war; sold as mass surplus following the war. The image i posted above was depicting the troops classified as zouave regiments - they used the pattern 1858 enfield, and as you say the 1841 - as well as the std full sized musket (Springfield / Enfield) - The m1841 - which was modified for the provision of a bayonet - as they were not manufactured originally to accommodate for one. Which was a huge annoyance to troops who used them.






 
#17 ·
Glad you know the history,

While Zouave is the generally accepted vernacular for the Remington 1863, every time the word is used in conjunction with it, it propagates the false history of the arm.

Since repo's of varying quality have been around for decades, they can usually be found at prices substantially cheaper than their 1861, 1863 Springfield or, 1853 Enfield contemporaries. Unfortunately, this leads many new and uninformed reenactors who are starting out to purchase one, only to be told they can't use it on the field. As only 3 band muskets are accepted for Infantry impressions by most organizations or, events within the hobby.

Looks like you have a nice example.
 
#18 ·
Glad you know the history,

While Zouave is the generally accepted vernacular for the Remington 1863, every time the word is used in conjunction with it, it propagates the false history of the arm.
Very true.. i feel the same with the term "sneak" in regards to the m39 no date; or the term Jungle Carbine in regards to the No 5 mrk 1 Lee Enfield.

My brother-in-law's father is a reenactor and like you said they are not allowed to use the 1863 for the exact reasons we went over.
 
#19 ·
Back in the late 1970's a very knowledgeable friend of mine when it comes to Civil War friearms was asked to identify the remains of a relic rifle that had been uncovered in an archeological dig at a Civil War battle site outside of Richmond, Va. He identified the relic as that of the remains a M1863 Remington Rifle, a.k.a. the "Zouave" Rifle.

Figuring that the relic remains of that Zouave would "prove" that, at least, one Zouave had seen combat during the Civil War, I contacted the company that did that dig. Unfortunately, their records from that period are missing along with any remains of that Zouave they dug up.

The historical record indicates that as far as can be determined, all of the Remington Zouaves delivered during the Civil War to the U.S. Government were shipped directly to warehouses and remained in storage until around 1900 when they auctioned off at surplus auctions. In other words what we call the Remington Zouave today probably "never fired a shot in anger." [at least, if and when the relic remains of that relic Zouave Rifle are ever found again-then we can probably say the Zouave "probably fired a few shots in anger!"]

Most Re-enactment groups have now banned Zouaves from use because there is no documented use of those rifles during The Civil War. Val Forgett and Navy Arms was responsible for the initial production of the first replica Zouaves in Italy back in the early 1960's. Since then the replica Zouaves have been manufactured by many different manufacturers in Italy not to mention by factories in Spain and even the Far East.

The quality of the replica Zouaves goes from "superb and excellent" to "terrible," depending who, where and in what time frame the replica was manufactured. Some of the early Italian Zouaves are truly fine, high quality firearms in the best sense of the words.


HERE IS THE ANSWER TO THE MYSTERY AS TO HOW THE REMINGTON RIFLE BECAME KNOWN AS THE "ZOUAVE RIFLE."


The story of the replica Zouaves are intertwined with the early history of the North-South Skirmish Association [ www.n-ssa.org/ ] The N-SSA was founded in 1950 and N-SSA rules allowed the use of ONLY original (or N-SSA "Approved" replica,) Civil War military issue arms.

Back in the early 1950's original, "mint condition-never issued" Civil War military arms (Springfields, Enfields, etc.,) were available at very reasonable prices from the various surplus dealers for around $20.00-$25.00 each. While many of these arms were used in N-SSA competition, the "mint condition" original Remington made Zouaves were also available.

These original Remington Zouave rifles quickly earned an exceptional reputation for accuracy in N-SSA competition, often winning target matches and easily surpassing the accuracy of the three barrel band Springfields and Special Model 1861 Rifle-Muskets, etc., [Probably due to the fact that the manufacuring quality of the original Remingtons were very. very high and the Remington rifles used a short,"heavy" stiff barrel compared to the Springfield Rifle-Muskets.]

Val Forgett was a member of the N-SSA and was aware of the reputation of the original Zouaves to be "Match Winners." As founder and President of Navy Arms, he had started the entire replica industry by the introduction of the Italian made Model 1851 replica Navy Colts in the late 1950's.

So, Val Forgett made the decision to have a replica of the Remington Rifle made in Italy and imported and sold in the U.S. by Navy Arms.

Val Forgett's problem was that he could not market and sell the replica Remington rifle as a "Remington" because the Remington Arms Company was still in business and the "Remington" name copyrighted by the company.

So, for advertising purposes, Val Forgett simply named his replica Remington Rifle the "Zouave" to associate it with those colorfully uniformed Yankee regiments in the early days of the Civil War. For merketing purposes, Val Forgett's descision to name his replica Remington the "Zouave" was sheer advertising genius.

Obviously, as far as can be determined by historical research, NO original Zouave Regiment ever were issued the Remington "Zouave" rifles [as they were in storage in a warehouse somewhere in the North]...however, some of the Zouave regiments during the Civil War were issued U.S. Model 1841 "Mississippi" Rifles.

But, thanks to Val Forgett and his advertising copy for Navy Arms, the name "Zouave" stuck to all of the replica Remington rifles and still does to this very day.

The Remington "Zouave" is actually an "amalgamation" in design. REmington had been one of the contractors that produced U.S. Model 1841 "Mississippi" Rifles for the U.S. Government in the late 1840's and early 1850's. When Remington delivered the last "Mississippi Rifles" on their contracts, they must have simply set aside some of the specialized Mississippi Rifle machinery and fixtures. Then during the Civil War, when Remington got the government contracts for the "Zouave" rifle, they got that machinery out of storage, dusted it off and used it to produce the lock and barrel of the Zouave Rifle.

The stock and furniture of the Remington Zouave Rifle is almost a direct copy of the stock and furniture found on the brass mounted, U.S. Model 1855 Harpers Ferry Rifle. So, design wise the Zouave Rifle uses the lock and barrel of a U.S. Model 1841 "mississippi" Rifle and the stock and furniture (slightly modified) of the U.S. Model 1855 brass mounted Harpers Ferry Rifle.

So, there you have it Val Forgett gave the replica Remington rifles he had made in Italy the name "Zouave" for advertising purposes!! A great business then and now-but nothing to do with history.
 
#25 ·
It,s still a great rifle. I got mine from Val Forgett ( Navy Arms) from the first rifles he offered for sale. The lock is inscribed Navy Arms Co. with the Eagle the date stamp is 1960. It has an excellent Walnut stock. Made by Antonio Zoli.I brought it to a Turkey shoot at my gun club and was told I could not use it. To be fair to other shooters I had to use their Original Springfield Rifle.Just as well I won a Ham.It sits on the wall today in original new like condition. I bought 1000 CCI musket caps from Wallmart,s in 2005 for $0.50/100 .still have them. Might have send a few balls downrange soon.
 
#26 ·
I appraised an 1863 Remington in relic condition for a family in SE WI during the early 90s. At some point, the forestock had been shortened when it was used as a deer rifle. According to the family, it had been brought home from the Civil War by an ancestor five generations earlier. In addition to the musket, they had his discharge paper and the receipt for the musket, for which he paid something like $6. It was the only documented CW used '63 Rem. Yes, it was loaded.
 
#27 ·
Weeeeeelllll.......... Family history is notoriously unreliable. Yes, the ancestor brought back A "musket", but probably not THAT one. That Remington was 99.99% more likely to have been bought in 1900 or so. The actual bringback had likely long since disappeared.

I've had people swear that their cherished M1885 canteen was carried by Great Great Grandpa in the Civil War, even though that was obviously impossible. Nobody is lying, but items lose their identity over time and the stories grow. Unless the Remington is specifically and unmistakably identified on the receipt (not likely), it's not really documented. Family history isn't documentation.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Actually, we owe the term "Zouave" to Francis Bannerman (see page 42 of his 1927 catalog). I expect this is where Val Forgett got the idea to call it "The Zouve" but it was known by that nickname long before Val came along. I had two friends who were shooting them, and used that name for them, well before Navy Arms appeared on the scene. Interestingly, both of them preferred the M1841 rifle for competition.

The last line of the description in the Bannerman catalog reads "This is the kind of gun usually carried by Zouave regiments." If I remember correctly, Bannerman bought most of the rifles in 1905 and they were still in stock in the 1930s. One of my two friends clearly remembered buying his in Downtown Providence, RI in the early 30s. It was taken, in absolutely new condition, from a nearly full case. Bannerman never really updated his catalog, he just added pages and eliminated the prices on items he'd sold, so this description probably goes back to before WWI. Most of those I've seen, maybe 20 of them, were in new condition.

I have handled another one with a supposedly ironclad family provenance, complete with bayonet and sling. I suspect that it did in fact belong to the soldier it was associated with but that he'd bought it in the early 1900s. For all we know, maybe he did tell his family he'd carried it in the war. In any case, by the 1970s the belief was firmly planted and no amount of logic or fact could dislodge it. About 90% of the family stories I hear are impossible.
 
#29 ·
Why were the originals never used?.It appears they were delivered by mid 1863,and there was still a shortage of guns at that time.Grant describes swapping his smoothbores for Southern Enfields at the fall of Vicksburg in July 1863.I know the authorities were set on 40" barrels,but surely new rifles must have had some usefulness.Why order them in the first place?Regards John.
 
#31 ·
Pretty humorous senex. There are others who were seriously engaged in the trade who have had similar experiences. In terms of surcharges, I have come across both rifles and bayonets marked "USR," which participated in the blockade. Other surcharges such as rack numbers may be of foreign origin as many of these were sold abroad during the early 1870s. Perhaps some record exists that I haven't found, but when leftover CW muskets were being reamed out and sold as $3 shotguns during the 1880s and 90s, I have yet to come across a '63 Remington similarly converted. Throughout the period of its limited production, the North was critically short of firearms of all types, many units being armed with both US and foreign cast-off flint conversions. In researching any firearm to an acceptable academic standard the lack of records is frustrating so anecdotal histories are of value. Also, it's tantalizing to the researcher that parts of these muskets occasionally turn up at both battlefields and campsites. Does Gorgas list any '63 Remingtons in his report of captured Yankee ordnance? I believe there are two if memory serves. At any rate, these muskets represent the peak of American Civil War-era muzzle loading musket development and much about them remains speculative due to the paucity of period documentation. They're probably not for the beginner but they are popular with collectors, as is evidenced by their typical sale price.
 
#34 ·
Throughout the period of its limited production, the North was critically short of firearms of all types, many units being armed with both US and foreign cast-off flint conversions. In researching any firearm to an acceptable academic standard the lack of records is frustrating so anecdotal histories are of value. Also, it's tantalizing to the researcher that parts of these muskets occasionally turn up at both battlefields and campsites. Does Gorgas list any '63 Remingtons in his report of captured Yankee ordnance? I believe there are two if memory serves.
Seems like I read recently... somewhere, of General Grant arming some of the non-regulars, the sort of "reserve" troops, guarding Washington, while his army was in pursuit of General Robert E Lee's army. There were issued this Remington 1863 rifle in the early part of 1864, and after a few brief skirmished, were then re-issued Springfield rifles after having turned these back in.

Let's see more of these rifles reproduction and originals!
Also a question to the knowing..... Could one be defarbed with the words "REMINGTONS/ILION, NY" on the lockplate with 1863 behind the hammer?
 
#33 ·
It appears that the reason Mr Forgett chose the Zouave as first replica was that facilities for boring and rifling a 33" barrel were available,but not for a 40" barrel.So the Springfield was bypassed in favor of the "Zouave".Its interesting to note that when Parker Hale first produced the P 1853 four band Enfield,the barrel had to be made in two pieces and joined by brazing,as they could not produce a 39" barrel.Regards John.
 
#35 ·
I can remember not all that long ago,that all the dealers selling CW antiques would have numerous of the Remingtons in mint condition.....As to actual use,its obvious that the 2 band musket was shunned,...if you look at the lists of Union Enfield purchases ,the 2 band model is completely absent.Could be firing in three ranks,could be the shorter barrel was thought dangerous because the muzzle was under the chin when loading.maybe it was bayonet reach up to a mounted cavalryman......or just tradition............Im inspired to take the old Jager down the range again.....its getting to be an antique in its own right.
 
#36 ·
I past up on a Navy Arms Zouave complete with bayonet last year at a pawn shop for $300.00. It was in real nice shape but just outside my price range, instead ended up with a Navy Arms Buffalo hunter equipped with a peep site for $140.00 which I found out later was a steal. Looking back both the rifles must of come from the same owner, it was a shame to break up the pair but the cash just wasn't there.
 
#37 ·
Here's a beautiful Zoli Zouave I purchased a few months ago for $225 out the door. It does not appear to ever have been fired but I plan to rectify that as soon as I order a miniball mold and the other bits and pieces necessary to start casting some big and heavy chunks of lead!

 
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