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Thread: German 20G Shotgun - jmman Meffert, Suhl

  1. #1

    Default German 20G Shotgun - jmman Meffert, Suhl

    I have inherited this shotgun - I know nothing about it except that it has been in my family for years. Any information on age etc would be appreciated.






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    Last edited by brasso37; 04-19-2008 at 05:58 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default

    Your shotgun was made by Imman Meffert, which was a top of the line operation. The Krupp steel barrels being prominently advertised with a rollmark would indicate manufacture in the 1920's. Krupp Werke of Essen, Germany manufactured the steel for almost all the 1920's-1930's shotguns and drillings made in Germany, and the strength of Krupp steel was somewhat legendary (to say nothing of them making artillery pieces for over a century...hence the crossed cannons). "Sicher" means "safe" or "secure" in German, meaning your gun was made for the German market, not marketed for a foreign country (I think...sometimes they'd stick "sicher" on a gun meant for export).

    What you really need to do is open up the gun, remove the barrels, and take a picture of the barrel flat right beneath the chambers. This will almost certainly have the last two digits of the year of manufacture.

    I'd also get your chamber measured. While your shotgun is a strong, sturdy boxlock design that can certainly withstand a lot of pressure, it is by no means invincible. Your shotgun, if I had to guess, has 2 9/16" chambers. That means you can't shoot modern ammo through it. But fear not! Go to www.polywad.com. Very cheap shipping rates and they make 2 1/2" and 2" shotshells, which would both fit your Imman Meffert just fine.

    I'm green with envy, incidentally.

  3. #3
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    Default Nice

    I have a meffert drilling and the quality is stellar. Your shotgun is a excellent piece of sporting arms history. If you get a second and your camera, please do as mentioned above and post a pic of under the chamber.

    Many thanks for posting.

  4. #4

    Default more photos

    Just took those other photos you have asked for. The more I look at it, the the more fine detail I see. Even the screws are engraved.
    A few photos --?horn inlay and detail??

  5. #5
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    Default

    I could be wrong, but I do believe the "19" stamped on the barrel flat indicates manufacture in 1919.

  6. #6

    Default

    Thanks very much for the info,One must wonder, if this weapon was made in 1919 in Germany it must have been made for a very prominent person,considing the state Germany at the time.Can only wonder.

  7. #7
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    Default 19

    Hey, the 19 is not the date of manufacture. Can you get a picture of the #s and other marks on the barrel above the chamber? That is where the story will unfold.

    Per your comment on the state of German Arms manufacturing at the end of WWI, I have a few drillings and atleast 1 shotgun made from 1917-1920 and the workmanship is stellar. I have also seen JP Sauer Drillings made as late as 12/1944 with the same quality. I have noted though that in SOME cases pins were used instead of screws. I am not sure if they thought of that as an improvement or was it expediency to get the drillings to the Luftwaffe which was in serious trouble anyway in 1944.

    Anyway if you ever want to part with your shotgun, please give me a holler.

    Many thanks for posting here.

    FC

  8. #8
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    "Hey, the 19 is not the date of manufacture."

    Turns out I was wrong. Sorry about that. I keep forgetting you find the date of manufacture in month/last two digits of the year format FORE of the barrel flat. Gah!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalko110 View Post
    "Hey, the 19 is not the date of manufacture."

    Turns out I was wrong. Sorry about that. I keep forgetting you find the date of manufacture in month/last two digits of the year format FORE of the barrel flat. Gah!
    Dalko110,



    don't worry. Those markings are often misinterpreted as the proof year. Actually, it is the chamber's calibre to be noted on the gun according to German Proof Law of 1891. It doesn't make any sense at all, but …. well, Laws.

    Mostly, the chamber calibre on German prewar guns are as follows:

    calibre 12: chamber calibre 13, 13/1 or 13/2

    calibre 16: chamber calibre 17 (I guess to remember also having seen 17/1, but not sure)

    caliber 20: 19

    @brasso37: regarding the proof date: remember, the Suhl proof house did not introduce the proof date before September 1923. If your gun was proofed before September 1923, you will not find any proof date.

    Is there a NITRO marking or crown/N present? If not, your shotgun probably was made before April 1912, as the Suhl proof house introduced the c/N and/or NITRO markings in this month (the Zella-Mehlis proof house on September 01, 1911, btw).

    Regards



    Martin

  10. #10
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    Default

    "don't worry. Those markings are often misinterpreted as the proof year. Actually, it is the chamber's calibre to be noted on the gun according to German Proof Law of 1891. It doesn't make any sense at all, but …. well, Laws.

    Mostly, the chamber calibre on German prewar guns are as follows:

    calibre 12: chamber calibre 13, 13/1 or 13/2

    calibre 16: chamber calibre 17 (I guess to remember also having seen 17/1, but not sure)

    caliber 20: 19"

    Thanks very much! I'm not going to forget that!

    "If your gun was proofed before September 1923, you will not find any proof date."

    And thank you once again for (albeit indirectly) clearing something up for me. Was hunting around for the manufacturing date of my Teschner-Collath Drilling and there not being any was a tad confusing. I guess "pre-9/1923" is the answer.

  11. #11
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalko110 View Post
    Was hunting around for the manufacturing date of my Teschner-Collath Drilling and there not being any was a tad confusing. I guess "pre-9/1923" is the answer.
    Dalko110,

    well, the date September 1923 isn't valid for the Collath, as all Collaths were proofed in the proof house Frankfurt/Oder. The Suhl proof house started with using proof dates in September 1923 (Zella-Mehlis in September 1911). Unfortunately, I don't know, when the Frankfurt proof house started using proof dates.

    Regards

    Martin

  12. #12
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    Default

    Martin,

    The VAST majority of dated Teschner-Collaths I've seen were dated 1926 or later, for what that's worth (I've seen 8, 2 of which including my own were undated). I don't know what that means, but I am tossing it out there.

    -J.W.

  13. #13
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    Default

    Gentlemen,

    I have to beg your pardon for my recent statement regarding the chamber and barrel caliber on vintage German shotguns. Sorry!

    Well, an old German saying: „Ein Blick ins Gesetz erleichtert die Rechtssicherheit“ (a look in the Law will facilitate legal certainty). I should have taken a look... now I’ve done it.

    Regarding the calibers it’s just the other way around: the number within circle is the chamber calibre, while the other number is the barrel calibre.

    Source: Reichs-Gesetzblatt (Reichs official Law Gazette), 1892, No. 33, page 678, dealing with the regulations to the Proof Law.

    So, the number within circle is the chamber calibre, while the other number is the calibre of the barrel:

    Chamber calibre 12: barrel calibre 13, 13/1 or 13/2
    Chamber calibre 16: barrel calibre 17 or 17/1.
    Chamber calibre 20: barrel calibre……

    and that’s what confusing. On the Meffert shotgun a barrel calibre “19” is noticed. As we all know, how this calibre is calculated, this would mean, that the barrel calibre is larger in diameter than the chamber calibre. And this can’t be… or?

    Regards

    Martin (confused)

  14. #14

    Default Photos of Proof markings

    Many thanks for the replies and information. Any markings that I could see have been photographed. Any more info would be great.

    NB Finn Collector I have sent you a PM
    Last edited by brasso37; 04-26-2008 at 11:21 PM.

  15. #15
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    Good day,
    My father has an Imman Meffert Suhl, Double barrel 12gauge with a .303 underneath. (3 barrels total). The work on it is very similar to brasso37's except ours has actual visible hammers with pins and a fancy change over to fire the lower barrel. i have some of the pictures of the working parts and i will soon have pictures of the complete rifle. Where can one find out as much as possible about these guns? they were obviously cutom made and must have a story behind their lives?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalko110 View Post

    I'd also get your chamber measured. While your shotgun is a strong, sturdy boxlock design that can certainly withstand a lot of pressure, it is by no means invincible. Your shotgun, if I had to guess, has 2 9/16" chambers. That means you can't shoot modern ammo through it. But fear not! Go to www.polywad.com. Very cheap shipping rates and they make 2 1/2" and 2" shotshells, which would both fit your Imman Meffert just fine.
    Would there be enough wall thickness the lengthen (ream) the chamber to 2 3/4"?

  17. #17
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    I wonder if you could help me identify my Grandfathers shotgun.
    It has inscriptions Hubertus Deutsche Arbeit Suhl on the sides, and on the ridge in-between the barrels it has Imman Meffert Suhl. On top of the chambers it has (R. Muller Cape Town) on the one barrel and (Sole agent for South Africa) engraved on the other.
    Under the chambers are the word nitro and 13/1 and 12 in a circle and the letters S W and U and there is also a 11/28 The barrels are long and the words full choke are stamped in front of the flat surface under the chambers. It came in a wooden case with leather straps to close the case.

    I would really appreciate any help

  18. #18
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    You have all the data. It is an Imman Meffert SxS shotgun made in November 1928. It was imported into South Aftrica by R. Muller in CapeTown. I have a Hubertus Imman Meffert and it is a great field gun for me.

  19. #19
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    Please Mr. Finn Collector, I have a Carl Stiegele double rifle that has been in my family since 1945. My family has asked me to try and determine the value of this piece. I found the following markings on the rifle:

    On the rib- Carl Stiegele. Konigl. Bayer. Hofgewehrfabrik. Munchen
    Side of barrel- Krupp Stahl
    Bottom of barrels- N [with crown above] K.M.G. 8gr U [with crown and sunburst above] 7.7 mm 57 rs
    numbers- 12929 1810
    Inside forearm- 12929 1810

    Receiver action- 12929 1810 U [with crown and sunburst above]

    This rifle is fully engraved. Horn trigger guard and butt plate. Bottom of stock has compartment holding [4] 8x57jr cartridges. The tang has the safety and a flip up, concealed peep sight. Also, fully engraved, claw type scope mounts. The scope was confiscated by the Army in europe.

    Hoping that you can offer some direction to establish a value.

    Sincerely,

    Nick C.

  20. #20
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    Hello. I will be grateful if you could help me identify a shotgun.
    It has inscriptions Hubertus Deutsche Arbeit Suhl on the sides, and on the bores it has Hubertus, Suhl, E. Guenzel. On top of the chambers it has E. Guenzel and Hubertus on the one barrel and Strehlen and Suhl engraved on the other.
    Under the chambers are the word nitro and 16 in the circle and the letters S W and U and there is also a 1/31.

    Thank you in advance for any help.

  21. #21
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    Default

    Hi,

    Without pictures I can only guess it was made by Imman Meffert in January of 1931. You can also post on www.doublegunshop.com for more like collectors.


    Quote Originally Posted by serzhomel View Post
    Hello. I will be grateful if you could help me identify a shotgun.
    It has inscriptions Hubertus Deutsche Arbeit Suhl on the sides, and on the bores it has Hubertus, Suhl, E. Guenzel. On top of the chambers it has E. Guenzel and Hubertus on the one barrel and Strehlen and Suhl engraved on the other.
    Under the chambers are the word nitro and 16 in the circle and the letters S W and U and there is also a 1/31.

    Thank you in advance for any help.

  22. #22
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    Hi. Sorry for delay, managed to get camera only today.
    Find please attached some pictures, hope that'll help.

    Thank you in advance.

    P.S. who is E.Guenzel whose name is engraved?
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    1.JPG   4.jpg   14.jpg   15.JPG   12.JPG   8.JPG  


  23. #23
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  24. #24
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    "Hubertus" was a registered trademark of Immanuel Meffert in Suhl, so the gun was made by that company. "Deutsche Arbeit" means "German make". The barrels were made of steel by the Döhlen steelworks near Freiberg in Saxony. The gun was proofed by the Suhl proofhouse January 1931 as a 16 gauge for 2 1/2" shells. Crown/S = shotgun, W = Würgeborung = choked barrel, U = Untersuchung = inspected/view for defects after firing the proofload.
    The "no name" country gunsmith E.Günzel in Strehlen retailed the gun and had, after the German fashion, his adress engraved, probably by the Meffert factory. Strehlen was a small county town in Silesia with an entirely German population. BTW, it was the hometown of my father. In 1945 Strehlen suffered lots of destruction by the advancing Red Army, all surviving inhabitants subsequently driven out. Strehlen is now Strzelin in Poland with an entirely Polish population, so there is no hope to learn more about Günzel.
    Last edited by kuduae; 12-05-2010 at 05:40 AM. Reason: typo

  25. #25
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    Thank you for info provided. I wonder where you know all this info from)
    Well, but do you know how much it may cost?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by serzhomel View Post
    Thank you for info provided. I wonder where you know all this info from)
    Well, but do you know how much it may cost?
    Most of it is written on the gun! "1/31" is the proof date, no "70" (70mm = 2 3/4") besides the "circled 16" = proofed for the then standard 65mm = 2 1/2" case. As a kid I heard plenty of storys about old Strehlen from my grandmother and myself visited Strzelin a few years ago. As the gun is a plain boxlock working gun with an outmoded chambering and in rather sorry shape with worn checkering and finish, value here in Germany will not exceed Euro 100.- = $ 130.-, regardless of "name".

  27. #27
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    Hi there,

    I was hoping someone could give me an estimated value on my shotgun.

    It is an Imman Meffert 12g s/s manufactured in Suhl October 1928 and imported to Cape Town by R.Muller.

    The gun in is good condition and the action is still very tight. There is no additional engravings besides the information stamps i.e. barrel chokes, date stamp, nitro etc.

    I am having difficulty uploading pics but here is a link to them in another forum: http://www.gunsite.co.za/forums/showthread.php?11971-Imman-Meffert-Shotguns
    (Moderators I apologise if that is against the site rules)

    Any feedback will be appreciated.

    Thank you.
    Rather die on your feet than live on your knees!

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