Brazilian 1908 rifles - Jon Speed & John Wall
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Thread: Brazilian 1908 rifles - Jon Speed & John Wall

  1. #1
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    Default Brazilian 1908 rifles - Jon Speed & John Wall

    John Wall and Jon Speed were friends that collaborated on research projects together, and Jon Speed thought it appropriate to post up some of their projects they were working on or that were never completed. He asked me to post this material on Gunboards-Mauser as that was John Wall's favorite forum. I will do several of these by topic, so they can help researchers of these specific models, Jon Speed wants this material publicly displayed and will work with any serious researcher that inquires.

    Follows is Jon Speed's comments and pictures:

    John asked one time that since we had several exchanges of info on the Mauser Brazil 1908 rifles, if there was any set of protocol documents that show or tell how the Brazil 1908 rifles were marked. I had a really cool document I got from an Old Mauser engineer at 80 years old who had a old barn that was set up with Modern CNC machines that the man used to make up special parts including some for the first Mauser aircraft cannon BK 27 used in Tornado and later in Euro Fighter etc. This was a In House Bound book of a total set of production Blue prints for the Brazil 1908 rifle. Besides showing all the parts drawings there was a section at end that shows the location for all the various Serial numbers, Inspection marks and other data found on most parts.

    1. Brazil 1908 Mauser Receiver drawings
    2. Document dates that showed when they were first done and later updated.
    3. Stock markings
    4. Parts marking
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P1030328R.jpg   P1030329.jpg   P1030334R.jpg   P1030339.jpg  

  2. #2
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    I was looking at the Gunboards site recently and a man asked about status of Oberndorf made Brazil 1908 Mauser's for which the original contract was for 100,000 Rifles. I provided some data on this in the past but now have the 100% correct data with 2 Mauser firm docs I hope tells the real story. Any remaining rifles could have been sold off to other worldwide dealers or kept in Inventory and or used up by German forces During war. Regards, Jon

    1. Doc signed by Mauser Director Mr. Doll in December 1913. This is the Brazil Status doc that shows that by Sept. 15, 1913 that 39,000 Rifles were shipped out. By Sept. 20, 48,000 were packed for shipping total = 87,000. In Dec. 1913 the Brazilians failed to pay for last 23,000 rifles as I just found in Mauser Sales book that shows the failed payments = 23,000 Rifles.

    2. Sales book Entry Brazil Dec. 1913 failed payments for 23,000 rifles. This would mean only 77,000 Oberndorf Rifles were finally shipped to Brazil. Regards, Jon Jon
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P1030099aL.jpg   P1030103aL.jpg  

  3. #3
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    Paul, Thanks for getting the Brazil data up. I noted someone asked if there was any DWM sales data, so here is original listing from Mauser firm files that show most of the important sales from DWM and Mauser. Some Mauser sales are missing, like 1907 Paraguay but the question was on DWM so this is what I have. Please put this on same part of site the Brazil data went on. Thank you. Jon
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    Paul, here is an important document from DWM to Mauser informing them how the marking on the side wall of the Mauser Oberndorf made Brazil rifles and carbines will have the word OBERNDORF after the DWM name. At bottom of this letter are notes from Paul Mauser saying he agrees with this etc. You can put this on the web site so folks can see the real deal on this issue as many folks have asked about this over the years. Regards, Jon
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  6. #5
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    Paul ,The first Brazil Mauser carbines and rifles made in Oberndorf started in 1907 and went on through just before start of WW1 in small batches spread out over this period. Mauser Oberndorf also provided extra parts for the Brazil 1908 rifles made by DWM who handled 80% of the whole original deal . In 1913 Mauser Oberndorf got a deal for 100,000 Brazil 1908 models and completed the deal just before WW1. DWM made at least 200,000 Brazil 1908 rifles and carbines from 1908-1914. Regards, Jon

    Paul, just to clarify the actual numbers here are 2 docs that show the Actual sales and delivery of Brazil Rifles and Carbines by Mauser Oberndorf. First shows chart of arms sales, Note the date 1907 for 2000 Carbines and 1909 for 100 Carbines.
    Next is chart up to period Sept. 1913 with Orders and delivery of Brazil Rifles. Brazil Ordered 100,000 rifles and Mauser had to this time delivered 62,050 Rifles with the rest some 37,950 to be shipped in 1914 just before WW1 started.
    These sales documents are direct from the yearly reports to the Board of Directors of Mauser Oberndorf. By the way the China and Paraguay sales were both diverted just as WW1 started with the 7mm China rifles going back to German Army and Paraguay rifles 7.65 went to Spandau who in turn shipped them to Turkey! Jon
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P1080455aa.jpg  
    Last edited by SimsonSuhl; 11-28-2015 at 03:00 PM.

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    Paul, since I am on a roll on this subject I went into the Mauser sales book for the start up of WW1 and found the 2 entries for the 10,100 Paraguay rifles that went to Spandau and the Carlowtiz ordered 10,000 for China which were diverted to German Army.

    Then a really cool document I found in the Mauser Cartel Records that actually state the Carlowitz ordered 10,000 China 7mm rifles going to German Army and the Paraguay 10,100 rifles going to Spandau, then shipped on to Turkey. The word for Turkey was abbreviated to Türk at the end of this sentence. Also of note the Belgium firm of Mahillon who made the deal with Venezuela for 1000 rifles which were also diverted to Berlin/Spandau.

    Paul, I found one last doc on the Brazil deal a note signed by Mauser Director Döll that shows the actual shipping dates of Brazil rifles through December 1913. I also note in other Mauser financial docs that for some reason the last 23,000 Rifles were Not paid for by Brazil so I guess these rifles may have also gone to other dealers to sell off or when WW1 started went to German military?? Anyway, Mauser/ DWM were out of pocked for these last rifles. Jon. etc.
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  8. #7
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    Excellent information! Many thanks!
    "Don't rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again." -Bertolt Brecht

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    This should be put up as a sticky!!

  10. #9
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    Interesting that the blueprints don't depict the pear shaped bolt found on many 1908's. That must have come later.

  11. #10
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    Jon Speed:

    Paul, A guy on the gunboards site for the 1908 Brazil story you put up asked a smart question. Why was the bolt in one of the general images we showed Not Pear shape ? This particular drawing was only for general data NOT the original Brazil Bolt drawing which I enclose which shows plainly the Mauser Pear Shape bolt used on this model. Also shows the bending angles for same bolt. Regards, Jon


    Quote Originally Posted by BobVZ View Post
    Interesting that the blueprints don't depict the pear shaped bolt found on many 1908's. That must have come later.
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  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by lornedavis View Post
    This should be put up as a sticky!!
    Good idea, it is done.

  13. #12
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    We did receive quite a lot of original Mauser documents from Jon Speed in the last two years. Since they invariably are written in German language, I took the task on me to translate them into English for those of you who can't read German.

    These documents and their translations are scattered over a handful of threads. Now we have a sticky thread here and I thought it would be helpful to post all these documents and their translations here also.

    Since this compilation is only intended as a quick reference, I post the documents without any further comments or explanations (which can be found in the respective threads, mainly on Brazilian M1908 and M1935 Mausers).

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    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    More documents, on Brazilian M1935:

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    Last edited by 7x57; 12-03-2015 at 02:21 AM.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

  15. #14
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    More documents:

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    Si vis pacem, para bellum

  16. #15
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    And the last one:

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    Si vis pacem, para bellum

  17. #16
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    Default Inspection Gauges for the Brazil 1908 rifle

    1. One of many Cabinets holding some of the Reference Rifles from Mauser firm. This Cabinet shows from Left G 98 and then various Export Long rifles with other types of tangent sights and far right earlier action type rifles.

    2. Inspection Gauges for the Brazil 1908 rifle. This one you can put up on web site for Brazil 1908. Feel free to put up on site any images you feel like or do whatever with them you need etc.


    Paul, the Pics of the Cabinet with G 98 and other long rifles was taken in 1908. Same with the Brazil Gauges that Mauser wanted to keep a record of the various Gauge sets provided to these folks etc. Each Gauge had the terms Brazil Mod. 08 and name of part/s it was used for. If you zoom in on some of these you can read this,Jon


    
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 26a.jpg   33aa.jpg  
    Last edited by SimsonSuhl; 12-22-2016 at 05:09 PM.

  18. #17
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    Mr. Speed,

    I cannot make out the text on the gauges, is it possibly for you to write up a short list description? I work on a lot of mausers an have always had a particular interest in how Mauser inspected and gauged them. I found that section of your sporter book particularly interesting.

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