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Thread: Gew88/05, Loewe Berlin 1891

  1. #1
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    Default Gew88/05, Loewe Berlin 1891

    (This is posted in JPS WWI forum and the military mauser forum)

    I went to a local gunshow today, and lo and behold, two beautiful rifles asked me if they could come home with me... As I have a soft spot for WWI related rifles I could not turn them down... One was a 1917 Mosin, the other a Gew88. I got both at a ridiculously low price too, cannot resist that. :cool:

    To americans who have access to lots of low priced Gew88s it may seem strange to be so overjoyed about finding one, but you hardly ever find one in Norway!

    I've coupled it with an Ersatz bayonet (Carter EB3) as I like the look of that....






    It has two regimental markings on it. On the front band is 79.RR.10.24. The first R is italic, the other is not. Any help identifying the unit is welcome...



    The rear band is unit marked B.6.RR.10.119. Here too the first R is italic.



    Looks good with an ersatz bayonet...



    I like it. The quick release sling swiwel was there too...



    Loewe Berlin 1891.



    One thing is not perfectly imperial... The Receiver is blued. I believe it should be in the white in original imperial condition. Can it be a Weimar era rework, or someone simply blued it, WWI arsenal rework???






    The bolt matches itself, but not the rifle, sadly.






    Here it is in perspective showing the bayonet on... The lid on the magazine well is 1914 dated.



    And, in its natural habitat....



    All comments are welcome...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 88ersatz.jpg  
    Last edited by Bayonetcollector; 04-27-2008 at 04:35 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayonetcollector View Post
    (This is posted in JPS WWI forum and the military mauser forum)
    To americans who have access to lots of low priced Gew88s it may seem strange to be so overjoyed about finding one, but you hardly ever find one in Norway!
    That depends on your definition of "lots" and "low priced"! Sigh.

    Great rifle!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayonetcollector View Post
    This Gew appears not to have been to Turkey, no turk stamps, all parts imperial proofed... Nice.
    Pardon my ignorance, but isn't that crescent on the receiver ring Turkish?

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    You are quite right... I made the error of thinking it was a trade mark. I've corrected the posting... How blind can one get? As blind as I was today, I suppose. Still, I like this rifle anyway...

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    IMHO, Helmer asks an interesting question. Models 88 were always rather rare in my region and it never struck me that they had this "moon stamp".
    To respond on Quillon's remark of "lots" and "low priced": it is my honest conviction that there are 10 times more 88's in the US as in Europe. In fact, it's the least common rifle I've ever seen in 40 years in the back rooms of the gun traders in Liège. A good 88 is rare now and was rare decades ago overhere. I admit that this is unbelievable and I never understood it myself. One of my friends had one with a not so pristine bore, we shot 1" groups at 100 meters with it (we rolled our own). If BC's bore is in good condition he has a good rifle (because for me a rifle is made to shoot ). To be honest, I've never seen a 88 with the receiver in the white, this is new to me. Strange to the collector maybe, but the truth.
    Last edited by Big commander; 04-27-2008 at 04:57 PM.

  6. #6
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    My guess on the markings would be for:

    79.RR.10.24:

    Reserve-Infantrie- Regiment 79, Kompanie 10, Waffe numer 24.

    B.6.RR.10.119:

    Bayerisches Reserve-Infantrie Regiment 6, Kompanie 10, Waffe numer 119.

    Joe Sweeney

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    That E.B.#3 looks perfectly at home fixed to you Gew 88/05!

    One thing is not perfectly imperial... The Receiver is blued. I believe it should be in the white in original imperial condition. Can it be a Weimar era rework, or someone simply blued it, WWI arsenal rework???
    That is how many Gew 88's came out of Turkey, my own is as yours, receiver is blued. My rifle is mostly matching except for the bolt, which, like yours matches itself. Like mine, I don't see any Turkish markings except the creasant stamp, and your bolt is German too. Is the barrel also German? Nice catch!

    Nice photo of the Wehrmann from L.I.R. 24, doesn't the fullers on his blade look really narrow, like an E.B.#4 perhaps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big commander View Post
    To respond on Quillon's remark of "lots" and "low priced": it is my honest conviction that there are 10 times more 88's in the US as in Europe. In fact, it's the least common rifle I've ever seen in 40 years in the back rooms of the gun traders in Liège. A good 88 is rare now and was rare decades ago overhere. I admit that this is unbelievable and I never understood it myself.
    I'm sure you're right, Big commander, the Germans exported lots of 88s to places like Turkey and Latin America, and I'd imagine U.S. surplus dealers have been the most active in seeking them out. My point was that, for some of us, "lots" and "low priced" means the Mosin Model 1944s down at the sporting goods store!

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    When DID the Turks get these? Towards the end of the war or afterwards?
    "Whale; The Other White Meat."

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    I have thought 1917-18 and thought that was the answer, but seeing this text about a Gew88 very similar to mine I wonder...

    http://www.texastradingpost.com/m88/88turked.html

    Here even Gallippoli is mentioned as a possibility. I will make no statement about that, just ask those who might know to come up with more. When were the Gew88s sent to Turkey? Was it in 1917-18, or were there earlier deliveries? Any deliveries actually as early as Gallippoli?

    I notice that the other turk marked stuff I have have different Turkish Property markings. A well defined crescent moon and star. So what is this crescent? An earlier property mark? Or just a different one?

    A fool may ask more than ten wise men can answer... I now play the fools part (the one part I'm competent to play. :D) and am now waiting for the ten wise men...

  11. #11
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    No wise man here, but I would beg to differ about the cresent on the reciever, It does not look like the Turkish markings I am acustom to seeing, mainly, it is oriented incorrectly to be a cresent moon. The blued reciever does hint that it made a trip through Turky though, unless some other country blued these things, and you never know what Norwegians would do with these things (keeping in mind that BC is not your average Norwegian, and that I have better loking legs)
    Best wishes
    Gus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gustaf B View Post
    No wise man here, but I would beg to differ about the cresent on the reciever, It does not look like the Turkish markings I am acustom to seeing, mainly, it is oriented incorrectly to be a cresent moon. The blued reciever does hint that it made a trip through Turky though, unless some other country blued these things, and you never know what Norwegians would do with these things (keeping in mind that BC is not your average Norwegian, and that I have better loking legs)
    Best wishes
    Gus
    That is why I first thought it was a trademark or something, it does not look like the turk crescents on anything else I have, so what may it be? A trade mark, or some earlier or different version of the turk property mark?

    As for your legs... My advantage is that mine are so short. If I stumble I do not fall far and thus there is less damage... :D

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    Well ... I took a very good look at the "crescent" on BC's rifle. I think it has nothing to do with Turkey. It is my strong believe that we must think about the French "croissant" (yes, "crescent" also). You know ... that delightfull "buttery" breakfast on sundays.
    Of course it's a joke but honestly, because I'm a simple man, I look at the rifle and not the thiny stamps. I shoot the things, they were made to do so. I understand collectors ... I only hope that they understand me.

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    Default "Turked" Gew88/05?

    Please go to my reply on the Mauser board re: this rifle

    Doc AV
    AV Ballistics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gustaf B View Post
    No wise man here, but I would beg to differ about the cresent on the reciever, It does not look like the Turkish markings I am acustom to seeing, mainly, it is oriented incorrectly to be a cresent moon. The blued reciever does hint that it made a trip through Turky though, unless some other country blued these things, and you never know what Norwegians would do with these things (keeping in mind that BC is not your average Norwegian, and that I have better loking legs)
    Best wishes
    Gus
    Hi Gus

    There are two kinds of "Turked" Gew 88/05's that I have seen, those with this same type of Creasant, and some with no creasant stamp at all on the action, although the same rifles will have Turkish stamps on the rear sights and or the bolts/ boltheads. Mine has the same stamp. Sorry the stamp is not too clear, ya gotta look, also two other Gew 88/05's with the Creasant stamp.


    This second one is a Gew 88/05 Loewe 1890, same Creasant:


    This third one is really crappy blown up, but the shape of the creasant is evident on the receiver between the crown stamp and the S stamp, it is on an 1890 Danzig Gew 88/05.


    As far as when the Gew 88/05 went to Turkey in the form of Military Aid, some sources say 1914, some say 1917-1918 when Gew 98 production was catching up and most frontline troops were receiving sufficient supplies. On most unaltered Turkish Gew 88/05's, this is the type of Creasant stamp that is found.

    The type of Creasant & Star stamp Gus is thinking of are found on rifles that were altered/refurbished during the 30's and later. Those 88/05's that were altered to M1903/30 standards bear that stamp.
    Last edited by wyliecoyote; 04-28-2008 at 07:42 PM.

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    DocAV. I'm grateful for your answer in the Mauser forum. It tells me much I needed to know. Your replies are always helpful and enlightening, this one too.

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=41956

    However I, and the swede with the georgeous legs, are unfamiliar with this version of the crest. DocAV and Wyliecoyote, together you may have answered my question, whether this is an earlier type crescent than the other ones I've seen. If this is a stamp used up to the 1920s that may be the explanation. Alternatively it may be an arsenal with a different property stamp than the AS. FA used post 1928.

    However this bayonet has a well defined crescent and star on, and If I'm not mistaken this is a 1916 model ersatz especially made for Turkey. Sadly I do not have a photo of the property mark here, but I'll shoot one as soon as I get home. I have two of these, both with that property mark. So, this property mark would be in use by 1916 already?





    The property mark I'm referring to is pretty similar to the crescent and star on this sword.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails turksword6.jpg  
    Last edited by Bayonetcollector; 04-29-2008 at 03:38 AM. Reason: Added info

  17. #17
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    That ersatz bayonet was made by the Turkish themselves. Anthony Carter identified those bayonets as E.B.# 87, and he was unable to determine if they were war time or post-war time production.

  18. #18

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    wyliecoyote is correct, the simple, even crude, crescent property mark is a common device on both Gew88/05 and Gew98 imported from Turkey in the early 1990s by Navy Arms and seen here in the US. The "missing" star is not unusual and as a matter of fact quite common. It is also not unusual to not see any Turk property markings on the Turk used 88/05s and Gew98s. Those that are not so marked are easily identified here by the all blued finish, often (but not always) totally mismatched condition and, of course, by the Navy Arms import marks. Also, many Turk 88/05s were brought into Germany at that time, maybe even earlier and are in collections there and elsewhere in Europe. The bayonet is scarce and, as said above, was produced exclusively for the Turks.

  19. #19
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    Thanks TP, I think we who doubted are now thoroughly convinced. Great to get advice from the knowledgeable members here.

    Just thought I'd show my little family of Gew88s... Not a large collection of them, but we are a small country and these are few and far between here...

    Top, Loewe Berlin 1891
    Middle, Steyr 1890
    Bottom, Kar88, civilian version (With mostly military proofed parts, but with civilian stamp on receiver).






  20. #20
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    Looks like a nice collection you have there BC!

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    btt

  22. #22
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    i recently acquired the same 88 loewe berlin and have no idea how to sell it and what it is worth, mine has the s but no crecent under s

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