Odd trigger set up on Imperial Dragoon
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Thread: Odd trigger set up on Imperial Dragoon

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    Default Odd trigger set up on Imperial Dragoon

    I picked up a few Imperial rifles two of which were very early Dragoons. In taking hem down to clean them- they looked like they had been stored in a coal bin- I found this. The gun is a 1899 Dragoon German captured. Notice the odd trigger addition.

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    Never seen that before, may have to tear down a few of my older Dragoons and check them.
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    Huh, where is my screwdriver?

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    Interesting! The way it's set up in picture 2- it looks like it prevents trigger over travel by limiting downward sear movement.

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    Well she's back together after 3 hrs of scrub and oil and grease. The gun is an Imperial Russian Dragoon "borrowed" by Imperial Germany in WW1. It's an 1899 variant from Ishvesk. Notice the double Deutches Reich marking on the stock. My theory is the gun went to depot twice- perhaps once when taken and reissued and once after damage repair. See the front sight base has been brazed to repair something. I didn't even notice this under the 117 years of grunge on the gun and filth. I kinda like it! I needed to replace the rear sight slide and rear sight leaf spring which one was missing and the other broken. The gun is matching floorplate and buttplate to barrel and the bolt appears a repair depot blank- no number.

    Now on to its two other filthy brothers-




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    Last edited by Vic; 01-31-2016 at 07:04 PM.
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    Looks go Vic, brazing job looks like it will outlast the sight it was mentioned to repair.
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    One of its horse friends-


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic View Post
    One of its horse friends-


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    Now I like the look of this one alot. Love the early features.

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    The other one I just got out of the cleaner and see matching factory inspection pencil initials/numbers inside. I'm not thinking by condition a d these pencil marks that these guns haven't been apart since they were made or repaired. Everything is covered in grime and corroded shut practically. This one is a 1914 version.

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    Last edited by Vic; 01-31-2016 at 07:06 PM.
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    That looks a heck of a lot better than the last time I saw them !!!!!
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    Awesome cleanup, Vic! What did you use?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic View Post
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    Cool 1st type hand gaurd and early rear sight.
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    Nick I use Murphys Oil Soap in a 50/50 to wash down the stocks and remove the grime. It won't hurt the finish or anything as its meant for furniture and floors.
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    Those were caught in time warps.

    The two stage trigger is very clever.

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    Cool! Looking forward to hear JPS's, or maybe even KH's input on this.
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    Are you finally getting to the old pallet of "you fixems" in the basement? That 2nd one is pretty awesome. What fun it must be? Cheers, John.

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    Looking forward to detailed pics on the second one, myself. Pretty sure you can count on your fingers the number of original configuration Dragoons.

    Details. We need details!

    Awesome stuff, Vic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic View Post
    One of its horse friends-


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    Stop. Just stop. You're killing me.
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    Vic you drew 3 Aces with that group. Nice rifles.

    Here are pictures of an [SA] stamped 1939 Izhevsk M91/30 with a similar flat spring that is fitted between the sear spring and the receiver. The added spring keeps a light continues tension on the trigger. Finnish or Soviet improvement??
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NA4453spring3.jpg NA4453spring4.jpg NA4453spring.jpg NA4453spring1.jpg
    Last edited by Alsky; 02-13-2016 at 01:39 PM. Reason: added picture
    Now I'm going to have to clean that rifle!!

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    I believe that the first Russian two-stage trigger appeared in the 1913 Kholodovskii Prototype.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alsky View Post
    Vic you drew 3 Aces with that group. Nice rifles.

    Here are pictures of an [SA] stamped 1939 Izhevsk with a similar flat spring that is fitted between the sear spring and the receiver. The added spring keeps a light continues tension on the trigger. Finnish or Soviet improvement??
    I have a very similar trigger on a straight barrel SIG 91/24 but the leaf spring is broken.

    Mine has the added pin thru the top part of the trigger like in Vic's picture that makes it two stage.

    I replaced mine with a different M28 style trigger until I can have a new leaf spring made.

    My 91/24 also has a set screw that allows you to adjust the sear height. Drilled and tapped thru the bottom of the receiver.

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    I have seen a few triggers like the OP's listed on ebay last year. They were located in Finland.

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    The Germans converted some of their WW1 Russian war trophies to 7.9 mm mauser caliber and even converted them to use their standard bayonet. Very rare rifles today. Looks like yours got a bit of a work over at a waffenmeister's shop back in the day, to get it into "useable" condition. That is a very rare find today! A lot of history there, I think I would leave it as is, so it can tell that story.

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    I have one of those flat trigger return springs on a 1940 Tikka M91. It adds about 2# to the trigger pull but works quite well. I also had an Imperial M91 with one.

    I surmised that it was a 1920s era mod by the Finns, but who knows for sure.
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    That might make sense but none of these 4 are Finnish and I've found the odd trigger spring on a German double marked rifle 1899. I'm thinking either Russian or German. To be on a Finn perhaps a similar mod they did based on seeing some from German purchases?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic View Post
    That might make sense but none of these 4 are Finnish and I've found the odd trigger spring on a German double marked rifle 1899. I'm thinking either Russian or German. To be on a Finn perhaps a similar mod they did based on seeing some from German purchases?
    So, you don't know? Aren't you supposed to be feeding us the good information, boss?



    But I do think that you are on the right track. If this trigger configuration was an accepted Russian modification, either from the factory or in the field, then we would see it more often. The Germans loved to 'improve' things.

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    I was leaning towards German Martin due to the repair of the sight base and having other non messed with Dragoons or 1896-1905 guns I've never seen this spring set up before.
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    the 1914 brother didn't clean up as pretty as the 1899- go figure. It had considerably more surface fuzz and internal gunk. Despite looking better prior to stripping. Not much finish left. Bore is dark. Overall though really nice wood. I'm pleased to find no broken parts internally because the trigger was wonky but it was because the seat was "glued" down by crud. The cleaning rod channel though may be plugged as I can't fit a rod in it. Either gunk or something broken off in it. Not sure how I'd clear it. It's between the rear band and the cleaning rod retention nut.

    Now onto the 91 long with the damaged sight base. It's in a non slot stock with German/Austrian swivels through holes in the stock. Deutches Reich marked again and 1899. I'll need a new rear sight leaf spring on this one as the other is broken. I need a laser welding guy for this one- who does it? Appears part of the sight base was hacked or shot off on the front sight
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic View Post
    the 1914 brother didn't clean up as pretty as the 1899- go figure. It had considerably more surface fuzz and internal gunk. Despite looking better prior to stripping. Not much finish left. Bore is dark. Overall though really nice wood. I'm pleased to find no broken parts internally because the trigger was wonky but it was because the seat was "glued" down by crud. The cleaning rod channel though may be plugged as I can't fit a rod in it. Either gunk or something broken off in it. Not sure how I'd clear it. It's between the rear band and the cleaning rod retention nut.

    Now onto the 91 long with the damaged sight base. It's in a non slot stock with German/Austrian swivels through holes in the stock. Deutches Reich marked again and 1899. I'll need a new rear sight leaf spring on this one as the other is broken. I need a laser welding guy for this one- who does it? Appears part of the sight base was hacked or shot off on the front sight
    If you need a m91 rear sight spring let me know and I will send you one.

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    Probably as alluded to above... to reduce the free movement of the trigger (if I'm interpreting the fit correctly) and provide for a weighted take-up of the trigger.
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    That Imperial infantry rifle I mentioned was also Deutches Reich marked. It had no Finnish provenance at all, just the "alleged" Finn trigger mod. Further that rifle stock had the for end tip cut off. I later learned that this was for mounting a German bayonet with an 'H' band. The rifle came from another collector, 'blacst'. It is shown on the trigger page at 7.62x54r.net. http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinFeatures03.htm

    The 1940 Tikka mentioned above came to me in its full Sisu grease glory, so it was not modified stateside.
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    Very interesting trigger! My two Dragoons sadly didn't have the set up as they were Finnish captured and if there was one originally, it was removed by the Finns when they were checking them over.

    The most interesting trigger setup I have on a rifle would be my 1915 Sestroryetsk that's Finn captured but has a M27 trigger installed on it. I can say it's "original" to the rifle from the Finns as the trigger was covered in grease and dirt that goes with the rest of the rifle. By far the best trigger feel and pull I have ever felt, even better than it being on a M27!
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitter View Post
    If you need a m91 rear sight spring let me know and I will send you one.

    All set but thank you very much for the offer. What I need is a laser welder to help fix that front sight base.
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    Hi Vic. Thanks for posting this.

    I have a Cossack rifle with no Finnish characteristics and the Deutches Reiche stamp on the butt-stock with the same trigger/modification, unfortunately I am unable to completely disassemble the rifle as the the front sling swivel screw is bradded and cannot be removed without damaging the swivel itself so this is the best I could do with the pic.s.

    Realizing that the sling swivel could have been added at most anytime I'm guessing it's also not Finnish and may add something relevant to the conversation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken in Iowa View Post
    That Imperial infantry rifle I mentioned was also Deutches Reich marked. It had no Finnish provenance at all, just the "alleged" Finn trigger mod. Further that rifle stock had the for end tip cut off. I later learned that this was for mounting a German bayonet with an 'H' band. The rifle came from another collector, 'blacst'. It is shown on the trigger page at 7.62x54r.net. http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinFeatures03.htm

    The 1940 Tikka mentioned above came to me in its full Sisu grease glory, so it was not modified stateside.
    Very interesting and sounds so familiar.

    I'm have no way of knowing if it's the same but my rifle has also has the fore end tip cut off, are there any pic.s of front end of 'blacst' rifle stock available?

    Thanks.

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    I knew I had seen this leaf spring before.... here is a link to an old thread from 2010 where there is one on a Finn M24:

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-91-24-trigger

    Aaaand here's another one:

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...trigger-spring

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    Well sir if that Dragoon with the flat sight and early stock needs a home, let me know! Great finds, thanks for sharing. Only with my luck was so good to find one like that. Hard to find the right words to describe that one. Congrats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB91 View Post
    Hi Vic. Thanks for posting this.

    I have a Cossack rifle with no Finnish characteristics and the Deutches Reiche stamp on the butt-stock with the same trigger/modification, unfortunately I am unable to completely disassemble the rifle as the the front sling swivel screw is bradded and cannot be removed without damaging the swivel itself so this is the best I could do with the pic.s.

    Realizing that the sling swivel could have been added at most anytime I'm guessing it's also not Finnish ......



    Very interesting and sounds so familiar.

    I'm have no way of knowing if it's the same but my rifle has also has the fore end tip cut off, are there any pic.s of front end of 'blacst' rifle stock available?

    Thanks.
    I will post some later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB91 View Post
    Hi Vic. Thanks for posting this.

    I have a Cossack rifle with no Finnish characteristics and the Deutches Reiche stamp on the butt-stock with the same trigger/modification, unfortunately I am unable to completely disassemble the rifle as the the front sling swivel screw is bradded and cannot be removed without damaging the swivel itself so this is the best I could do with the pic.s.

    Realizing that the sling swivel could have been added at most anytime I'm guessing it's also not Finnish and may add something relevant to the conversation?

    Click image for larger version.

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    Very interesting and sounds so familiar.

    I'm have no way of knowing if it's the same but my rifle has also has the fore end tip cut off, are there any pic.s of front end of 'blacst' rifle stock available?

    Thanks.
    I have got to be dreaming.
    ISO ----- 91rv, 24rv, SA or SkY marked Beretta M34 or M35, Finn marked Cz 24.

  42. #41
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    As promised, here are pics of the blacst rifle, a 1906 Tula that had the added trigger spring.

    Click image for larger version.

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    I came across this pic of a bayonet adapter later. Not an H band obviously as I mentioned in my earlier post.

    Click image for larger version.

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    Now officially collecting Mosin M38s!

  43. #42
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    And pics of the trigger on my 1940 Tikka.

    Click image for larger version.

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    Now officially collecting Mosin M38s!

  44. #43
    BB91's Avatar
    BB91 is offline Diamond Member with Oak Clusters and Swords
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken in Iowa View Post
    As promised, here are pics of the blacst rifle, a 1906 Tula that had the added trigger spring.

    Click image for larger version.

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    I came across this pic of a bayonet adapter later. Not an H band obviously as I mentioned in my earlier post.

    Click image for larger version.

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    Ken, thanks for the pic.s and reply, the bayonet adapter is really neat.

    I suspect my rifle probably was more likely shortened long ago due to damage but I'm am definitely interested in any other explanation or possibilities someone might care to add or share. Here are a few pic.s of the rifle I mentioned.

    Click image for larger version.

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    And 1 more pic. of the trigger to get back on topic. :-)

    Click image for larger version.

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    I

  45. #44
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    USMCsean is offline Super Moderator / Silver Bullet member/ Rocket Scientist
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    Yours could have been shortened for the very same adapter that Ken shows.
    Semper Fi,
    Sean



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  46. #45
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    Hello,

    From what I've seen, the leaf springs were used prior to coil springs in Finnish rifles. I do not know why they made the swap.

    Additionally, I can't find anything to indicate whether the correct assembly is the one shown in Vic's original post, or the one presented by Alsky.

    Alsky's version would serve to shim the sear, as is done by some today with washers and such. This both lightens the load necessary to trip the sear, and slightly changes the sear engagement angle.

    This is a setup I've always wondered about, and I'm following this thread with interest.

    Regards,

    Josh
    Milsurp fan favoring Mosins and the Gewehr 88.
    Handload for the 7.92x57, 7.62x54r, and .45acp.

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