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  1. #1
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    Default German marked 1944 Beretta pistol

    Well here is one of those pleasant surprises. I bought this pistol thinking that it was an Italian Police issue per the info from the seller. He had no other photos for me so at 300 I took a chance on it. Here is the auction photo!



    Here are the photos of the pistol at my house. And yes much to my excitement the pistol has the 4 over UT mark for the German issue this is now worth a tad more in value now! And it looks new and is tight like its never been used.







    This was one of two I thought I would not be able to afford.
    Last edited by Mybusa; 05-17-2008 at 02:41 PM.
    Mark

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  2. #2
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    I had a thought about this. Does any one know what style of holster would have been issued with this? I placed it in an Italian green one but if this was German issue what holster would they have used?
    Mark

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    "You have to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything." - Abby

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  3. #3
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    Your Beretta, all German used Beretta's, can be found in almost any Italian or German holster. I have found the following (keeping track of bring back rigs) to be the most correct for German used Beretta's. Now all you need is to find a mint one to match you pistol
    David Franchi

    jhg 44 on break-a-way flap and Eagle WaA41 on closure strap tip, not Eagle WaA286.

    -
    Czech. CZ27 type, WaA76 only on back, no "P.Mod 27" on rear.

    -
    Czech. CZ27 type only not marked "P.Mod27" on the rear. Unmarked or German code die stamped "oub" on the inside top flap.

    -
    Green/grey Italian/German holster. Italian and German used, also used with Walther PP pistols.

    -
    Italian Skeleton holster

  4. #4
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    Thanks for the photos of the holsters. I know know what to look for in the hunt.

    Thanks
    Mark

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    "You have to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything." - Abby

    "The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

  5. #5
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    Mybusa, can you explain "the 4 over UT" significance? I'm certainly not an Italian firearms' RKI and would like to know more.
    TIA

  6. #6
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    "the 4 over UT"
    This is the German acceptance marking put on the ones that the Germans got their hands on. Most of the ones I have seen are all 1944 dated and are either polished nice like mine or rough and parkerised. I believe it stands for 4th Technical Control Unit.
    Last edited by Mybusa; 05-17-2008 at 09:52 PM.
    Mark

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  7. #7
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    Ok

    One more question about the holster issue. I have a shoulder holster set that the holster looks just like this one but black and with a larger flap.



    Would this have been WW2 issue? The straps are of a nylon type material. I will dig a set out and photo it.
    Mark

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mybusa View Post
    "the 4 over UT" ... This is the German acceptance marking put on the ones that the Germans got their hands on. Most of the ones I have seen are all 1944 dated and are either polished nice like mine or rough and parkerised. I believe it stands for 4th Technical Control Unit.
    Thanks Mybusa. I have a 1944-dated Beretta that's marked with a 4 over a "UT" but have never heard about it being related to German use.

    I was under the impression that if a firearm went through the military procurement channels it was marked with a WaffenAmt like the many CZ27s and Hi-Powers issued to German troops/German-backed troops (such as Vichy French police as an example.) Was the "4 over UT" a German marking or an Italian one? Since Italy capitulated to the allies in Sept. 1943, I can't imagine that Italy was churning out pistols for the German military in 1944 which, to me, would seem to further negate the idea that the Italians were somehow separating out pistols intended for German troops from the pistols intended for Italian troops. To my way of thinking, any Beretta M1934/M1935 pistols removed from the Beretta factory and taken for German use, especially by 1944 (the date of the pistol...remember too, Rome was in allied hands by June 1944) would be marked with a WaffenAmt since it would've gone directly into the German procurement channels/systems. But I digress...


    Can you elaborate more on this marking, or point me to a source where I can find out more about? I'd like to find out the source of your information and learn more about the markligns and these littel pistols.

  9. #9
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    Bill;

    As I understand it, there are two categories of "german" guns. Those purchased by the German Army and WaA marked on contract, and those made in Northern Italy in 1944 under German occupation marked either 4 UT at Berreta Gardone or made by Armaguerra (no inspector marks).

    After his rescue, Mussolini formed a new government in Northern (German occupied) Italy called the Italian Social Republic (RSI), also known as the Republic of Salo. These pistols, as well as a few made at Armaguerra were made under German oversight for the Italian forces still on the Axis side and German use. The allies never got much past about halfway up the boot by the time the war ended.

    I am sure someone has more specific information on earlier German contracts... my knowledge is pretty limited so far.

    Some links from my learning over the past week since I obtained an Armaguerra made Model 1935.

    http://www.berettaweb.com/armi/Beret...20&%201935.htm

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=3973

    http://www.securityarms.com/20010315.../2800/2862.htm

    Here's a great one in Italian.

    http://www.armietiro.it/edisport/arm...3?OpenDocument
    Last edited by BradB; 05-18-2008 at 12:43 PM.

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  10. #10
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    Hi Bill

    It has been my understanding and (I need to find my research on it) that the marking was placed on the Beretta pistols made under German occupation. Where they went from there I always wonder.

    I do remember reading that the owner of the company while forced to make weapons for the Germans was also reported to be smuggling some out to resistance fighters.
    Mark

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  11. #11
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    Thanks Brad and Mark. What little I know about Italian arms is marked "heere bee wylde beestes" on my map. I'll look into the sources cited.

  12. #12
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    Mybusa, Your shoulder holster could be WWII.

    On the (4UT) comments, check out Brad B's links in his post. The (4UT) is not a German marking, it is an Italian marking. You could have a Beretta with the (4UT) and it isn't guaranted to be German. You can also have a Beretta without the (4UT) and it could be German. Beretta sold their pistols to the Germans. They apparently had a lot in stock in Sept. 1943 ready for delivery to the Italian military and they were sold to the Germans, there are Berettas with the Italian Air Force Eagle which were sold to the Germans. If a Beretta has a WaA 162 it was inspected by the Germans. By what I have read, the Germans didn't inspect very many as they regarded the Italian inspection to be good and to speed up production. Check out the serial number ranges in the links.
    David Franchi

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    David

    Here is the holster set.




    You can tell that it started out as a belt holster by the sewing holes but was then converted to a shoulder set up. My Beretta fits perfect and all the black rub marks on the inside of the holster line up with the Beretta. I bought the holster after I bought the pistol.
    Mark

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  14. #14
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    FWIW, that shoulder holster rig you're showing looks identical to the one that, IIRC, came with my Manurhin Walther PP from Centerfire Systems. And not that it means anything but most of those PPs were marked with Vienna Ministry of Justice numbers (according to the P.38 forum members.)

  15. #15
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    I agree, it looks post-war German etc.
    Here is a WWII Italian holster.
    David

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    One of the well known internet gun dealers has a late 4UT marked 1935 for sale on his site... SN 613704. It is only $1295. Yes, One Thousand Two Hundred and Ninety Five Dollars.

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  17. #17
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    I liked my price better!!
    Mark

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    Talking yeah

    my grandpa bought one of those back in the fiftys and i was at his house online looking it up

    i found this site and was excited to show him

    after i told him what he could get for it $1000+ he told me he wanted to sell it

    i am thinking of hanging on to it for another 20 years or so

    hey we could allways pass it down our family




    i love this gun and all made by beretta

    thanks guys

  19. #19
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    Only a few of them might be worth that much. It depends on when it was made and if made during WW2 what service it was marked for. Or it might be a commercial issue (post war maybe).

    I suggest 2 things. Post clear photos of it here so can see the markings and which model it is. Do you know what caliber it is by chance?

    Ask Grandpa if he will let you take some photos of it!
    Mark

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  20. #20
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    Few to NO M1934s or 1935s are worth over $1K. Most fall in the $200-$500 range.

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    Red face OK im silly i didnt read the post clearly

    well concidering that he only paid $30.00 for it I don't think he really cares

    but then again as i said before we could just pass it down in my family or i could hang onto it and sell it when its worth more:cool:

    i didnt read the post clearly that saidit was worth $1000.00 but is it is worth that I'd be happy

    its 32. auto
    Last edited by Beretta ™; 07-27-2008 at 10:31 PM. Reason: needed more info

  22. #22
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    Beretta

    If it was your Grandfathers then I would think of it as an heirloom and keep it until you can pass it down. I think firearms with family history are priceless.

    The only grand father I knew had guns but before he died they all disappeared and no one knows where they went. I would love to have had some.

    Please if you get another chance photo the gun or get all the marking info that on it. That would help us to ID it. I and others have posted photos of ours here so just search and get to know them. Beware the old pistols are addicting!
    Mark

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  23. #23
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    Beretta has records of pistols delivered to the Germans and the SN ranges have been published.

  24. #24
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    Are they published on line for us to look up? I'm surprised with the take over of the Italians gun makers and then the loss of the war that the records made it!
    Mark

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  25. #25
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    Beretta and others here is a photo of my new to me Romanian Beretta 1934. Now I need to find out what kind of holster went with it!



    Here is the full post on it.

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=45387
    Mark

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  26. #26
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    Can't say about online. See: Still, AXIS PISTOLS, any ed.
    Beretta also evidently can supply a letter; I have an 4UT M34 whose previous owner got one.
    The Norwegians also have records of their M1914s supplied to the Germans.

  27. #27
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    Wow

    Kinda like Colt and Winchester. I'll have to email Beretta and see if they still do that.

    Thanks
    Mark

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    "The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

  28. #28
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    Default Chrome

    I realize that I'm replying to an old post, but the information here is most closely related to what I'm researching. I recently came into a Beretta model 1944 with the "4 over UT" stamp but it is chrome (see picture). Through researching on the internet I have found out that it was manufactured and delivered to the German Army Headquarters sometime between August 1944 and February 1945, but no where have I been able to find out anything about any of these pistols being Chrome - only reference and pictures of blued guns. Does anyone have any information on any of these pistols being manufactured with a chrome finish or would it be "after market"? Information on the gun is:

    Left Slide: R Beretta Cal 765 Brevetta
    Gardone V.T. 1944

    Right Slide (seriel number): 573133

    It does have a (faint) "4 over UT" stamp but no "WaA 162" stamp as far as I can tell. Sorry for the bad picture but that's all I have right now and am at work and can't get more detailed pictures. Thanks to anyone that has any info for me.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Beretta.jpg  

  29. #29
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    The chromium was applied by a famous person known as "Bubba". SW
    Of all the things I ever lost, I miss my mind the most.

  30. #30
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    Yes many a bring back pistol made it to the chrome shop after the war. I have seen some that looked to be new pistols that were chromed and some that had been well used and then chromed.
    Mark

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  31. #31
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    I assume that aftermarket chrome would hurt the value ($$$) of the gun, but would it hurt it significantly or only slightly? Thank you for any input.

  32. #32
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    From my years of watching auction prices and some (ok lots) of buying it hurts significantly. This goes for all sorts of bring back firearms.
    Mark

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  33. #33
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    I have one of these about how much is it worth?

  34. #34
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    My unissued 1941 dated Beretta M1935, with holster and both magazines:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails M1934.jpg  

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