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Thread: another 1890 cavalerie

  1. #1
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    Default another 1890 cavalerie

    Just received it this morning, found it on gunbroker, about half the price of an average Berthier. Unfortunatly before I got it Bubba put his hand on it and polished and made everything really shiny before puting a coat of cold blue.
    Except for the cleaning rod it all matches.

    it is the one on the bottom


    Beside the fact that it is a relatively rare carabine de cavalerie it is marked MD. It is the only 1890 cavalerie in its original configuration that I have seen marked in such a way.
    I have now seen 1890 1892, 1902, 1907, 1907/15 marked MD, and never a Lebel?

    The serial number is F41xxx and implies a date of fabrication in 1890 or 1891 however the barrel is dated 1909 and 12, indicating a rebarreling date of december 1909.
    Another interesting factor is the stock, all the carabines de cavalerie I have seen if not in the original stock configuration, sling swivel, have the spot for the sling swivel filled. this one does not

    Starting in November 1909 all the Berthier were made or modified for the tenon de recul, apparently this one in december 1909 avoided the modification.

    I guess I will have to live with the shiny metal of the rifle but all in all I am fairly pleased.
    Best regards
    Robert Olivier
    Last edited by vivelacolo; 05-08-2008 at 05:31 PM. Reason: spelling

  2. #2
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    All the Mle 90's belong to me!!!

    Robert: How dare you buy up all the guns that should be mine!!!

    Good find. There are other anomolous guns floating around, ie: A Mle 92 with un-numbered bolt and mag and stock, it does not have a tenon du recul either, and the un-marked stock, apparently a spare part, has no provision for the tenon, like yours, what is even more strange is the swivel on the butt, still intact and the clearing rod still stuffed into the stock!
    The early sear is still on the dog, and the sight is converted to MD, but not marked.

    I am fairly sure that the authorities did not seriously begin to add the tenon until the 1930's rebuild program. All the observed guns are dated in the 30's, and the work to do this modification was extensive to say the least..

    Dale
    "If those sweethearts won't face German bullets, Then they'll face French ones!"

  3. #3
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    Robert you just did get it . I had emailed seller right after you .
    Do you not feel guilty keeping gunbroker from collecting fees?
    mcgoo

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    I think your F41XXX has been made in 1891. I found the following datas about the production of the 1890 cavalry carbines.
    MAC (serial A): 1891: 40 000; 1892 : 10 000
    MAS (serial F and G) : 1891 : 90 000; 1892 : 16 000
    none built between 1893 and 1900
    Between 1900 and 1904 : more or less 4000.
    Orders of 1905 : 40 000
    total production, more or less 200 000.
    I have seen a carbine which was a quite close case to yours : serial F639XX (theorically made in 1891), barrel of 1913, stock without the modification of 1909.
    Would you mind to tell me the serial (last two digits hidden) and years (barrel, stock cartouche) of your two other carbines? I am rebuilding the datas about the production of the weapons in 8 mm Lebel. It is more or less finished for the carbines and mousquetons, but I would like to compare my theorical datas with real weapons. For the moment, I have the following : F165XX (1891) F639XX (supposed of 1891) F944XX (1892) G66XX (barrel of 1903, it seem to be the original one).

  5. #5
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    Alamas,
    I believe you are in the ball park.
    I just had to move everything from one of the room and a lot of Berthiers came up.

    Here is the list of some of my 1890
    MAS
    F 300x 12/ 1890
    F4138x 12/ 1909 I believe a rebarrel.
    F5778x 8/ 1891
    F9336x 12/ 1891 acceptee janvier 1892
    G65x 2/ 1892
    G439x 3/ 1892
    I believe those figures validate your research, essentialy 90000 built in 1891, and a slow down in 1892.
    now MAC
    Chatellerault is credited with building 114000 1890 carbines
    A1212x 4/1892
    A1499x 5/1892 this is an all matching gendarmerie that has been N proofed
    cleaning rod removed otherwise everything appears original
    The various publications indicate that the 44000 (30839) carabines de gendarmerie were made at St Etienne? Unless the stock was changed down the line.
    If you need data on the 1892 let me know?
    James,
    Win some, lose some. You got me on the 27 by few minutes.
    Dale,
    i have quite few 1890 and 1892 that are N proofed but have never been modified for the tenon de recul. i believe that if the modification was not done at the time the decret ministeriel was issued, it was never done.
    Best regards
    Robert Olivier
    Last edited by vivelacolo; 05-10-2008 at 04:16 PM.

  6. #6
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    Tenon du recul

    Robert: All I have seen were the 1930 era guns, new dated barrels and rondel on the stock, ie: 1933....I wonder if they decided to do this during that era when they rebuilt a lot of old materiel into the current configuration.

    Lebels: The only thing that I can surmise offhand, is that the earlier sight was pretty obvious,( The base was noticably different for one thing.) and they cut down the right side to adjust the graduations, this along with the slot in the cursor were done to bring the Lebel up to date in the early 1900's. With the Berthiers, the short sights looked alike, or perhaps they wanted to make sure that guns in the hands of troops were current. Since the Lebel was not the center of attention, maybe some Minister thought that the Berthiers needed some kind of mark. I have seen that they did not do this mark after a certain date, maybe because they were no longer making the early model sight....In any case, I think is has to do with the Berthier being in current production when the ammo was changed....It is worth noting that nothing was done when the Balle N modifications were made, supposedly, they just reamed out the chamber neck and planned to issue Balle C to the troops and the use of Balle N was a combat expedient... I have no documentation on this, just speculation....

    Dale
    "If those sweethearts won't face German bullets, Then they'll face French ones!"

  7. #7
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    I see my 1890 MAS F620xx 9/ 1891 fits right in.

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    Could have been worse bubba'd... he could have welded on a butter knife bolt handle, chopped down the stock, painted it black and put on new sights. Actually doesn't look to bad with fresh blue. I'd love to get a deal like that. Why are all the other bubbas so very ugly?
    RIP BBQ Sam

  9. #9
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    wow! thanks a lot for your reply. I would be very interested by datas about your '92 and M16 mousquetons. Some french collectors are helping me, but no one in France can have a collection like yours. Fro the moment the total number of 1892 is theorically 579150 (french report of 1922) for both MAC and MAS. The succession between the 1892 and the M16 seem to be around the serial letters D and E. I know a 1892 of 1916, serial D160XX, and a M16 (first type) of 1917, serial E958XX. Between 05/1917 and 1929, 495480 M16 are supposed to be produced. The number produced after 1929 is unknown, but I know an M16 of 1935, serial BD117XX.
    The total number of gendarmerie carbines produced is hard to define : In october 1892, the defence minister decided that only 40 000 were needed. 36 640 have been produced at the MAC in 1891 (14871) and 1893 (21769). The 20 000 firsts have made as gendarmerie carbines, the 16640 others as 1892 mousquetons. For the MAS, the things are noted as follow : 44 000 ordered, 30 839 made as 1890 gendarmerie carbines, and 16640 made as 1892 mousquetons. But this is 10 839 gendarmerie carbines over the minister orders.

  10. #10
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    vivelacolo : the total production of 114 000 1890 carbines is ok with my own source (manufacture d'armes de châtellerault by C. LOMBARD) : 20 000 cuirassier carbines+at least 50 000 cavalry carbines + 40 000 gendarmerie carbines (in fact only 20 000, 20 000 have been modified as 1892 mousquetons).

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alamas View Post
    vivelacolo : the total production of 114 000 1890 carbines is ok with my own source (manufacture d'armes de châtellerault by C. LOMBARD) : 20 000 cuirassier carbines+at least 50 000 cavalry carbines + 40 000 gendarmerie carbines (in fact only 20 000, 20 000 have been modified as 1892 mousquetons).

    According to Stephane Ferrard, from 1891 to 1900, the production is as follows
    MAS cavalry carbines: 106.000
    MAC cavalry carbines: 114.000
    MAS gendarmerie carbines: 30839
    MAC gendarmerie carbines: nil
    MAS musketoons Mle 92: 237.899
    MAC musketoons Mle 92: 142.000

    ln Army stock august 1914
    Cavalry carbines: 220.000
    Gendarmerie carbines: 30800
    Musketoons Mle 92: 380.000
    Total short rifles: 630.800

    In Army stock december 1914
    Cavalry carbines: 90.056
    Gendarmerie carbines: 12.476
    Musketoons Mle 92:244.237
    Total short rifles:346.769


    kelt

  12. #12
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    Kelt, these datas are coming from La gazette des armes N°124, isn't it? It is based on some studies which has been published in the "revue de l'infanterie" in 1922 and on the book of Capitaine Dubessy on the MAS. The datas he gives for the MAS come from the pp. 646 and 647 of that book. This is the orders. The real production is slightly different and, unfortunately given only for the years before 1896 (appendice III PP. 632 and 633). I like stéphane FERRARD very much, but some datas he gives are false : 16 000 cuirassier carbines (in fact 20 000 have been produced). 30 839 gendarmerie carbines for august 1914 is in fact the number produced for the MAS only. He says that the production of the mousqueton have been stopped after WWI, which is untrue. I have the same problem with Henri Vuillemin, Jean-Pierre VERNEY and Jean HUON. Of course, I have based my work on their works, but there is differences between them and even diffrences between the datas they give and the datas I have seen in the documents they used. As I have said before, this is months I loose my hair trying to find the "truth".
    The only way I found to help is to compare with real weapons, a way already used on this site.
    Anyway, I appreciate very much your help. And I see that I didn't clearly said that the total production of some 114 000 1890 carbines was for the MAC only. I think I will begin to give the result of my work, even if I think it is not finished, I begin to believe that it is an endless work.

  13. #13
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    As promised here is the list of some of my mousquetons. Apparently you have less access to those rifles than we do on this side of the ocean.
    You may lose your hair over it
    Chatellerault
    Mle 92
    _ A 5550x MAC 1895/7
    _ B 1497x MAC 1900/10
    _ B 6518x MAC 1913/1 MD
    _ B 6677x MAC 1917/4 MD
    _ D 3992x MAC 1917/2 MD
    _ D 4104x MAC 1923/6 MD
    Mle 16
    _ E 6743x MAC 1917/8
    As a note I have a stock E80127 accepted at MAC mars 1922
    M 16 those are the mousquetons made in the 1930 by scrubbing old receivers to make new ones
    _ AD 2249x MAC 1931/2 LK5
    _ BD 3229x MAC 1939/8 PK

    Continsouza
    Mle 16
    _ AB 1715x MAC 1917/10
    _ AB 2095x MAC 1917/
    _ AC 6851x MAC 1918/6
    _ AD 4039x MAC 1918/9
    _ AD 9858x MAC 1918/11
    _ AE 7107x MAC 1919/5

    St Etienne
    Mle 92
    _ F 530x MAS 1892/10
    _ F 1516x MAC 1903/7
    _ F 7087x MAC 1920/6
    _ F 7129x MAC 1928/
    _ F 7788x MAC 1933/2
    _ F 9842x MAS 1894/3
    _ G 6526x MAS 1895/6
    _ G 8155x MAS 1895/10
    _ H 8142x MAS 1914/2 MD
    _ J 176x MAS 1915/1
    _ K 7788x MAC 1933
    Mle 16
    _ AE 8734x MAC 1919/5
    _ AE 9963x MAC 1919/10
    _ BC 5562x MAC 1920/1
    _ BC 5047x MAC 1931/6
    M16
    _ 328 MAC 1939/7 St etienne reciever pre 1909 tenon added.

    Tulle
    Mle 16
    _ BC 8660x MAC 1924/ stock marked Tevennec 15-1-35 no acceptance by Army.


    I hope it will help in your research. As I pull out more rifles from other areas and if they are interesting or relevant I will add to the list.

  14. #14
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    Alamas,

    You may not have noticed but on this Forum we take all the published informations with a grain of salt, and I mentionned "according to Stephane Ferrard" for that purpose.

    The informations on French weapons published by various authors are based on incomplete data, often showing discrepancy with the observations made on rifles, the knowledgeable Forum members are well aware of the situation.

    Stephane Ferrard himself wrote that the numbers listed in his article are based on instruction orders, and not on weapons delivered, hence a possible source of error.

    What is done here is trying to reconciliate known informations with hard facts by comparing data and product.

    kelt

  15. #15
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    Thanks a lot to everyone and especially to vivelacolo. Kelt, sorry if I have shown some pedantry, it was not my purpose at all. "We are dwarves standing on giants shoulders"

  16. #16
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    Alamas,

    No harm done! in the absence of the proper documentation (procès verbal de recette), it's the accumulation of informations on existing rifles that will improve our knowledge.

    kelt

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    Gentlemen:

    I have mostly rifles and carbines from the Second World War, but among them are several that date to WW I, and before. A few appear out of sequence, regarding the pattern that I see forming.

    Would you be so kind as to instruct me as to where the barrel 'month' might be found, so my contribution will have more pertinence?

    Edit:
    Please, do not avoid any statement of knowledge or conjecture, for fear of being thought 'pedantic'. We who read these Boards, are often as children seeking instruction. When you converse publicly, amongst yourselves, as you have done here, statements of fact, no matter how basic or redundant they may seem to you, are of value to the readership.

    All of you gentlemen are most generous. Kelt, with your general knowledge, Vivelacolo, with the catalogues of your admirable collection, and Alamas, with your extensive research; you all do honor to this avocation.
    Last edited by orcmastiffs; 05-14-2008 at 03:13 AM.

  18. #18
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    the month is stamped under the barrel, close to the receiver, at least on the Berthier rifles and carbines. This is a fact I learned on this site. This is a marking I didn't take into account before. And it is really too bad for some weapons I won't never be able to see again.

  19. #19
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    Default question to vivelacolo

    Would you please confirm me that your E 674XX is a rare M16 of the first type? (M16 stamped on the receiver, but M92 type stock and no upper handguard).

  20. #20
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    The number stamped under the barrel near the E proof mark indicates which month the barrel was proofed and is not necessarily its fabrication date.

    kelt

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    Alamas and Kelt:

    Thank you, I shall list what may be of interest, as time allows; within the week.

  22. #22
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    I made this into a stickie ....
    We might be able to do what has been done for the MAS 36 but now for Berthier's.
    Now that it seems that I will have more time to help devote more attention to this forum and participate more.
    Patrick
    Vive La Rpublique Franaise, le Lebel et le poilu
    Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
    Fusil d'Infanterie Modle 1886 Modifi 1893 dit "Lebel"

    Vive le Pinard !
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axfM1sFqIK0

  23. #23
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    1886Lebel,
    This is an excellent decision like for all the other French rifles a lot of information has been lost and one of the way to reconstitute the lost data is through the itemization of serial numbers and variations.
    I am still working on inventorying the data on my long Berthiers and I should be able to post during the week.
    Thank you
    Best regards
    Robert Olivier

  24. #24
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    Alamas,
    I finally located the rifle, unfortunately the stock is not original, an E serie stock for M16 second type stamped 1922.
    This model 16 is indeed odd, I posted about it on the old forum, even so it is a Mle M16

    it still has the 3round magazine

    all the metal is matching


    the barrel dated 1917

    The three round magazine floor plate is stamped with the number like the early Berthiers, after 1916 and the arrival of the three round mags the numbers were stamped on the trigger guard.

    Another odd item is the "chien" hammer part of the bolt, it is again one of the early ones and still has the "etoutaut arretoir" that was supposed to be discontinued after April 4 1893.

    Was the rifle assembled with leftovers? I have other carbines from this era with all the appropriate parts.
    Are you trying to find out at what point they started using the stock M16 second type?
    I have in front of me AB 17xxx october 1917 that has its original stockin the exact 1892 configuration. In the next few days I have a couple of M16 of that era in orignal configuration? coming in and will hopefully able to provide you with more data.
    Best regards
    RRO

  25. #25
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    Default M16 of the first type?

    The magazine "La Gazette des armes" made a distinction between the M16 mousqueton of the first type (5 shot, M16 receiver but M92 stock, no upper hanguard) and the others. It is not an official name, only a collector distinction about some transitional M16 which were made with "92" spare parts. These transitional mousquetons have the reputation to be rare. It could be interested to see how rare they really are. I had the possibility to have a better look at the E 958XX, promising not to damage a single screw. What I found is quite interesting : month of proof of the barrel hard to see (not correctly stamped) but seem to be 9, year being 1917 (MAC). Continsouza receiver. All at the same serial. Serial number stamped on the trigger guard. The magazine box outside of the stock seem to have been added and adjusted(small space visible between the top of the M16 type magazine and the part of the magazine which is inside the stock). The front part of the magazine has been clearly machined (remains on the sides of the upper part of the magazine that show this magazine has been at first made as a 3 shot). If I am allowed to do so, I will send pictures, it will be more clear. Now the question is : this magazine has been modified when the mousqueton was originally made or later?
    Alamas
    Last edited by Alamas; 05-20-2008 at 04:58 AM.

  26. #26
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    Default Mle 16

    Another one without a hand guard.

  27. #27
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    Default carabines de cuirassier serial numbers

    Carabines de Cuirassier mod 1890 :
    MAC :
    A 60XX, barrel MAC 1891, stock cartouche June 1891
    A 179XX, barrel MAC 10/1891, stock cartouche not readable

  28. #28
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    Carabines de Cuirassier mod 1890:
    St. Etienne, F 13937, Mars 1891

    Mle 16, Chatellerault, 5-shoot, without handguard
    AR (or AB) 11591, November 1917

  29. #29
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    PeterS : your 1890 carbine serial F 139XX is certainly a cavalry carbine and not a cuirassier carbine (supposed to have been produced at Châtellerault only, serial A1 to A20000). No difference between the markings or barrel of these two carbines, the only difference is the stock. The serial number of your M16 is AB115XX. When you write mars 1891 and novembre 1917, is it the stock cartouche?

  30. #30
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    Default factory pictures and drawings

    Some factory pictures of the 1890 carbines and 1992 mousqueton which has been took at Châtellerault when these models began to be produced. The factory drawings may be remind you the ones of the Boudriot books.
    Alamas

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alamas View Post
    PeterS : your 1890 carbine serial F 139XX is certainly a cavalry carbine and not a cuirassier carbine (supposed to have been produced at Châtellerault only, serial A1 to A20000).
    sorry, yes you are right...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alamas View Post
    When you write mars 1891 and novembre 1917, is it the stock cartouche?
    stock cartouche....

  32. #32
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    Receiver: St Etienne - Mle 1890
    Barrel: MA S 1892/5 / 'PG', Circle P, Circle P
    S/N: F12272 / Was it BUILT AS-Mle 1892? / It is a Mle. M.16, 'N', now.

    Receiver: St Etienne - Mle 1892
    Barrel: MA S 1898/8 / 'SC', Circle J, Circle C
    S/N: H42046 / No Piling Hook / Bottom Sling Swivel

    Receiver: St Etienne - Mle 1890 MD
    Barrel: MA S 1914/9 / 'CC', Circle C, Circle M
    S/N: H86840 / BUILT AS-Mle 1892 / 'J' Piling Hook / Bottom Sling Swivel / Open Cleaning-Rod Channel

    Receiver: Continsouza - Mle 1907-15
    Barrel: MA C 1917/3 / 'CC', Circle J, Circle C
    S/N: D68300 / BUILT AS-Mle 1892 / No Piling Hook / Bottom Sling Swivel
    'MA' Cartouche: April 1917 / Chatellerault
    Matching, Non-Reworked / Cleaning Rod / No Handguard / Contemporary Blade & Ladder Sights
    Last edited by orcmastiffs; 02-27-2010 at 12:14 AM.

  33. #33
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    Default pictures of first type M16

    Here are the pictures. From left to right : right view, receiver, space between upper part and lower part of the magazine, 3 shot magazine machined to accept 5 shot.

  34. #34
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    Alamas,
    The original M16 did not have the quillon and had the baguettes, other wise the stock appear correct with the short finger groove.
    Orcmastiff,
    The 1907/15 , is it a rifle or a carbine,(I have 1907/15 in the carbine format) how did you come to the conclusion that it startyed its life as a 92? I am under the impression that when production started on the 1907 and 1907/15 they started the prefix at A again.
    I have to go to Mexico get a truck load of Saltillo so I must leave.
    Best regards
    Robert Olivier

  35. #35
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    Vivelacolo:

    The stock is cartouched, numbered to the carbine and is a Mle 1892 stock. Was there a Mle 1907-15 Chatellerault rifle with the same number? I do not know. You ask a tough question, and I know not how to respond. I have revised the listing, above. Only the top carbine has been reworked. The other three appear to be as they were first made.

    Please instruct me as to what 'tell' I might look toward, for an answer to this question.
    Last edited by orcmastiffs; 05-22-2008 at 07:35 PM.

  36. #36
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    Vivelacolo : this M16 has clearly received the 1927 modification (rod channel filled with a piece of wood, front band with a stacking swivel). Just for fun, I join a factory drawing of the 1892 model, approved in 1925. It is made for the re-arsenaled weapons and different from the original drawing. For a standardization question, the stock (an the bayonet) is of the M16 type. It has a short finger groove on the drawing. I think it is a mistake of the drawer.

  37. #37
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    Orcmastiffs : I think your F122XX with a MAS receiver stamped 1890 and a barrel proofed in 1892/5 was originally a Gendarmerie carbine. The same month, the cavalry carbines barrels had a serial number in G over 4300. It cannot be a cuirassier carbine (all made at chatellerault, serial A...)

  38. #38
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    Alamas:

    It is most impressive that you can divine this little carbine's first incarnation; well done! It was reworked at least three times. The sights, then the full 1920s rework to its M.16 configuration, and lastly the "N" modification, in time for the Second War. The bore is worn, but still bright, and the re-blue, though seventy years old, looks fresh.

    Vivelacolo has asked after the 1907-15 carbine. As I have encountered a few others, it cannot be unknown. It would be impertinent for me to comment upon the extremis of 1917, but surely expediency would not have been an aberration in such circumstances. As stated above, the barrel date and "MA" cartouche correspond, and it is in the configuration of a Mle 1892, unremarkable and contemporary to the time. I shall post pictures, should they be deemed helpful, otherwise I shall not pursue what seems to be a minor digression.

  39. #39
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    I have a numbers matching St. Etienne Mle 1890 MD that I inherited from my grandmother. The problem is whoever got hold of it but a flash suppressor on it, and also covered the holes for both the cleaning rod and the carry strap. The numbers are F31426 and the breach side of the barrel is MA S1891. I've been looking hard for info on the rifle because it is chambered in 8mm lebel and i only have 5 good shells for it, it came with 2 boxes but most of the brass was cracked and i was left with only about 10 rounds and have fired a few times. Any extra info you might have would be greatly appreciated, especially wher to get ammo, or else brass and bullets.

  40. #40
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    bfaussett84 : your carbine is probably a cavalry carbine, we know two cavalry carbines close to yours, one with a march 1891 stock marking (date of reception by the army), serial F139XX, another with a date of proof for the barrel of may 1891, serial F414XX. Look at the downside, flat part, of your barrel close to the receiver (hidden by the wood, you have to remove it), you will see the month of proof (1 to 12). For the cartridges, Privi Partizan, the yugoslavian cartridge maker from Titovo Uzice rebuilds the 8 mm lebel. I am sure that somebody on this site is able to tell you where to get these in the states.
    Last edited by Alamas; 06-13-2008 at 08:12 AM.

  41. #41

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    I need a mle 1892 bayonet, my cleaning rod hole was filled in,but can I still mount a bayonet? how much do mle 1892 bayonets cost?

  42. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    282

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    I am back, a lot of questions.
    Officially, it appears, the 1907/15 were made only in rifles configurations. however few 1907/15 in carbine configuration have appeared.Even 1902. I have in my collection one, not listed in the above list as a carbine or mousqueton.
    It is an original 1892 configuration mostly matching, with a barrel date of MAC 1925, the stock is an original 1892 with single finger groove, identical to the sketch provided by Alamas. What is disturbing is the fact that the numbers do not have a letter prefix and strange stamps appear on the stock, similar to Russian acceptance marks.
    Why would the French downgrade their new production carbine to a three shot?
    Why would they revert to a design that was cosidered obsolete?
    Why no letter prefix in front of the number? was there exportation we are not aware of?
    Regards
    RRO

  43. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    282

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    I apologize for not posting the list of the long guns that I promised, too many litlle things requiring my attention.
    However while I was away, another Mas 34 found its way to my collection ($50) so I had a chance to pull out and inventorize the other ones in my possession
    Mle 1907/15 M34
    _ F 64X MAT 1936/5 metal AEG
    _ F 5368X MAT 1938/ no month
    _ F 5754X MAT 1939/ no month
    _ F 5811X MAS 1938/12
    _ F 6090X MAS 1939/6
    _ F 6302X MAS not readable.
    The "official" quantity says 50000 were produced, unless there is numbers that were not utilized?
    RRO

  44. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    395

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    Vivelacolo : thank you again for your great contribution. Now, about your "07/15 carbine", it wiil be hard to say anything definite about it. I 'll try to give you some clues : Even if everything is possible with french weapons, the carbines or rifles of the 8 mm Lebel system I have seen had a serial number stamped by the Army with a prefix. The weapons I have seen without prefix were :
    - prototypes or trial weapons (e.g. Lebel 1886 serial 839 of september 1886)
    - Instruction weapons (e.g. cavalry carbine 1890 for instruction, serial 3289 made in 1891)
    - weapons built for export (e.g. 1902 rifles of the persian contract, 10 000 weapons built in 1906, 1907 and may be 1908).
    -weapons rebuilt by french police, several weapons without prefix are known, especially 07/15 and M16 rifles.
    -weapons produced or rebuilt by the private industry, some have a prefix, like a MF 07/15 shown on this site, some don't. Often lack of military proof marks.
    -weapons rebuilt by outbroad powers. Everything is possible, with a lot of mismatching spare parts, receivers, bolts barrel and stocks that could comme from different weapons.
    Now, about your cyrilic markings, one of the powers which have received a lot of french weapons and equipments during WWI is Serbia (and after WWI yugoslavia, under the control of the serbians).

  45. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    953

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    Vivelacolo:
    Truly you have 'The Way' with these remarkable acquisitions. A $50 M.34 might offset the price of that truckload of tile. I am listing four more 34s, known, (and well-known to many), so as to have them recorded in one place.

    F 131 / Unknown, MA T 1935
    F 16916 / AEG, MA T 1936 (+5, 'B', "E")
    F 220XX / AEG, MA T 1936 (+5, 'B', "E")
    F 27182 / MA S 1936 ("LK5")
    F 34734 / MA S 1937 (from seller's description) Cut-away rifle
    F 61059 / MA T 1939 (Upper L/H barrel, "C", circle "9")

    A Mle 1907-15 matching 'Artillery Carbine'; barrel marked MAC 1917/3, and stock cartouched, April 1917 "C".
    Last edited by orcmastiffs; 03-04-2010 at 09:23 PM.

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