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  1. #91
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    Default Dreyse Reproduction Rifles?

    Hello Everyone,

    I'm new to the boards and have been doing some looking around other forums trying to find out if it is at all possible to find reproductions of either the M41 or M62 Zundnadelgewehr. So far all I've found are a few local gunsmiths in Czechoslovakia that do make the gun but getting it here would be another matter entirely.

    I'm looking to add a Prussian impression to my reenacting list but I want to get one of these rifles to shoot as well! I don't know if I could stomach scuffing and banging around an original rifle in the field; I don't even like seeing good old military rifles sporterized.

    I would love to add one of these to my collection of military rifles, and it seems only right to have one included! Anyone know of reputable antique gun shops or someone who makes these rifles stateside?
    Last edited by InfanterieRgt48; 09-22-2009 at 09:06 PM.

  2. #92
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    Default Dreyse M/57

    Hello Signalman,



    In response to your request regarding Dreyse Karabiner M/57 bolt parts. Please can you photograph your bolt disassembled so that we can correctly assess what precisely is missing. There are a couple parts that we can get made and the others not possible. We do not know of anyone who has M/57 spares or can make the other parts. You could try advertising in Germany. As Gunboard cannot reproduce our scale line drawings of the bolt due to too high a pixel rating, please be patient. This Saturday we shall photograph the component parts of our bolt and post the attachment of a disassembled bolt to illustrate what we can manufacture. We might be able to supply a needle.



    For the Mle. 1866 Chassepot shooter possibly can also supply the correct rubber obturator. But this has to be investigated.



    Guy and Leonard A-R-West

  3. #93
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    Hello, I thank you for your response. I am patient. I also have someone who Probably could make the parts from your scale line drawings. If you were to email them to my email address I will forward them on to him and see what he says.

    I am enclosing photo's of the bolt. As I said, it is just the bolt body, No small parts at all.

    (ignore the little bit of fuzz on the rear of the bolt.) The bore is actually pretty good with lots of shiny and STRONG rifling
    Last edited by signalman; 09-23-2009 at 02:14 PM.

  4. #94
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    Default Dreyse M/57 Karabiner

    Signalman,

    As promised the componenet parts of the M/57 bolt. We illustrated all the parts to a scale line drawing format but are not dimensioned.

    Your M/57 is marked for the 9th Hussar regiment, we could possibly give you more details where it was used in 1870-71. On the breech barrel juncture is it marked Stahl? Could you measure and photograph the sight leaf.

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West

  5. #95
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    Hello, I can get you the info you request as soon as I get home, I am in Louisville, and will be going to the Max Show, then home.

    What is the scale of your photo ??

  6. #96
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    Default Dreyse F/60

    A board member requested information on the F.60.

    We can now reveal that we are currently working on a shooting/historical article featuring the F/60 rifle with its F.S/60 bayonet for publication in the USA next year for anyone who is interested in the Dreyse needle ignition system.

    Attached is a bench rested unissued F/60 about to be ballistically evaluated with facsimile Patrone M/55.

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West

  7. #97
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    Hey Guy and Leonard,
    Hope the article will be in "The Gun Report", trying to keep my magazine subscription level down some. Still waiting on the November issue, called today and they said they were behind on shipping. Looks like you have a decent amount of ammo make up there. Happiness is having lots of cartridges
    I Collect, therefore I am.

  8. #98
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    Default Chassepot curiosity

    For those who appreciate abstract military art, an unusual curiosity noted whilst on a military museum excursion in France constructed from Chassepot bayonets, bolt parts, springs, needles and brass cleaning jags.

    We have also examined chandeliers in a church made from Werder and Podewils cartridges, socket bayonets, picklehaube fittings, shell cases etc.

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West

  9. #99
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    Does anyone know where to obtain technical drawings of either the M41 or M62? I have a gunsmith willing to take the plunge (I have found reproductions out of Czechoslovakia but getting them stateside and a language barrier presents problems!)

  10. #100
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    there is a gunsmith in germany making first class reproductions of the Dreyse Zündnadeljaegerrifle because this is the best for target shooting but he is making any other model on demand. if you are interestet I will look for name and address.
    he is using .58 diameter barrel blanks but the zündnadel cartridge is working without problems also in the reworked ex muzzelloader with a 14,3/13,7mm diameter from austria and bavaria.

  11. #101
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    Hi feuerwerker,

    do you have the address or URL of this German gunsmith making the Dreyse Zündnadelgewehr reproductions?

  12. #102
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    thats he is

    http://de.local.yahoo.com/Rheinland-...-12596944.html

    he is also making first class reproductions of the dreyse needle fire revolver

  13. #103
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    I drove right past that town! Does he have an email address or only a written letter address? Do you know of any examples of his work anywhere? Sorry for the frantic looking post!

  14. #104
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    I have gunmagazin's laying somewhere with the Zündnadeljägerbuechse und a new made Dreyse Zündnadelrevolver.
    will look for this stuff

  15. #105
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    Mister Forcht is not in the net, he have enough customer's around
    his zündnadeljägerbüchse










    price was 6135 euro

  16. #106
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    his needle fire revolver




    some years ago I was in contact with because of his revolver replika cartridge for the collection. you see it here on the gun magazin




  17. #107
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    Holy.


    Crap.


    That's amazing.
    Last edited by Nick; 02-03-2010 at 09:21 AM.

  18. #108
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    Outstanding, but costs more than a good original....
    My own virtual museum, growing one entry at a time. Keep checking back!
    http://militarygunsofeurope.eu/

  19. #109
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    Very nice, but very expensive.

    Here are a couple of originals. A standard and Beck converted M/65.

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dreyse M.65 collage photo.jpg  

  20. #110
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    Wish I could find a Needle gun, what a beautiful addition to the collection that would be.

  21. #111
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    Outside of Rolf Wirtgen's book in the subject, which seems darn near impossible to find, are there any technical drawings for these rifles, specifically the infantry model 1841? A price of over 6000.00 Euros for a very nice looking reproduction and 1600.00 USD for a battered example is enough to make me wonder wonder if, with a competent gunsmith, one could create a nice looking example. If it's done in Germany why not here in America as well, if only for a one off piece for myself. I've got a gunsmith willing to take the plunge and I'm not against the work. No publications or research involved in my work, I just want a needle rifle!

  22. #112
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    i wondered if G. A-R-West or anyone else might know of where I could get parts to repair my Dreyse Karabiner? I need a needle OR blueprint of one and an idea on how to replace the rear 1/2 of the cocking piece. Does anyone know who can make a bullet mould for one OR has a few bullets they would sell? I have owned this for 30 + years and would like to feel it go BOOOOM!!

  23. #113
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    Contact Bernie Rowles with Old West Bullet Molds. The West brothers sent me a blueprint of the bullet and I paid Bernie to make the cherry. I'm sure he's scratching his head at why he's been getting so many orders for needle gun bullet molds. We both thought it would be a one time deal.

    http://www.oldwestbulletmoulds.com/

  24. #114
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    nearly wet myself with those pix of the repro dreyse! really want one but too expensive!

  25. #115
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    The reproduction M/65 is a 'Beck Conversion' featuring a better rear sight, a sealed breech and chambered an improved cartridge, the combination greatly enhanced ballistics, doubling range.

    The barrel and receiver would have been browned and rear sight arrangement blued as per the original shown in the attachment.


    The cartridge for the Beck converted rifles was first tested as early as 1868, but not officially adopted until 1872, designated Patrone n/A neuer art. M/72). The attachment x-ray is of a M/72. Shooting the M/65 Beck conversion, perceived recoil is greater than that of the Patrone M/55.



    Guy and Leonard A-R-West
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dreyse jager breech right.jpg   Dreyse cartridge x-ray copy.jpg  

  26. #116
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    Default repro

    whats the difference between the custom and the series production? its a 2000 euro price difference

  27. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyten View Post
    whats the difference between the custom and the series production? its a 2000 euro price difference

    Labour cost, material prices and the usual supply and demand issue. For a hand crafted custom build rifle prices are higher than for mass produced factory pieces.

  28. #118
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    For those interested, there is currently a copy of Mittlers' "Das Zündnadelgewehr" up for grabs on Egun.
    My own virtual museum, growing one entry at a time. Keep checking back!
    http://militarygunsofeurope.eu/

  29. #119
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    Searching Egun.de is one of the most frustrating things I've ever tried.


    EDIT: Hot damn. I think I just found it. Astounding.

    EDIT II: Feh. Can't even register on their damn system.
    Last edited by wyowillys46; 02-09-2010 at 09:29 PM.

  30. #120
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    Why not? You don't need to have a German address.
    My own virtual museum, growing one entry at a time. Keep checking back!
    http://militarygunsofeurope.eu/

  31. #121
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    Do you know of anyone who might have any parts for an 1857 Dryse Karabiner?

  32. #122
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    Good luck on your part wish list. Can you post pictures of your Dryse?

  33. #123
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    On Egun search: Zündnadelgewehr. Wirtgen's book shows up there fairly regularly. There are two versions, one paperback and one hardcover; they do not differ in content.

  34. #124
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  35. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by G. A-R-West View Post
    Gentleman,

    For those who have an interest in Dreyse needle rifles being shot with their correct cartridges, we have attached a few photos of a M/57 Karabiner, F/60, M/62, M/41 and a very rare Hessian Zűndnadelbüchse M/65 U/M under recoil. All of these rifles have been entered in competitions and demonstrations.

    Other needle ignition of interest to be posted at a later date are the M/65 Jaeger, Mle.1866 fusil, Mle. 1866 carbine and Italian Carcano fucile.

    The needle ignition system is great fun to shoot and a challenge for those who enjoy making unusual cartridges.

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West FHBSA
    Hello Guy and Leonhard,

    by searching on the Internet according to the information of about Dreyse- and Chassepot-ignition needle guns I have bumped into your post. Unfortunately, can I not find the pictures. Plesae can you help me?

    I have since last year 2 Chassepot-Rifles and one Dreyse M/60 and I want to shot with them.
    Excuse my bad english.

    Kind regards of germany
    Roger

  36. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopfenmuller View Post
    i wondered if G. A-R-West or anyone else might know of where I could get parts to repair my Dreyse Karabiner? I need a needle OR blueprint of one and an idea on how to replace the rear 1/2 of the cocking piece. Does anyone know who can make a bullet mould for one OR has a few bullets they would sell? I have owned this for 30 + years and would like to feel it go BOOOOM!!
    Hello Hopfenmuller,

    Unfortunately, my English which I understand your text completely does not so feel well. But I try to give some tips.

    A new needle is no problem. For the plastic forms industrie there are ejector pencils, for example,

    http://www.nonnenmann-gmbh.de / upload/catalog/3%20Auswerferstifte%20und%20-huelsen.pdf

    page 11, I have ordered needles for Chassepot and Dreyse - they also deliver tiny amounts. I think in every country it gave industries for plastic forms.

    I have be made a ball mould just from www.ballmoulds.co.uk
    for my Dreyse M / 60 - Many greetings to Jeff -

    I hope I could help a little.
    Kind regards of germany
    Roger

  37. #127
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    Roger from Germany,

    To answer one of the questions. Finding parts for the Karabiner M/57 is extremely difficult and can only suggest hunting for them at antique gun fares.

    We have dismantled an M/57 bolt to reveal all the bolt components so that can be downloaded for identification.

    Also attached is some of our tools for fabricating a facsimile Chassepot cartridge.

    Regarding your F.G./60, an attachment of one with its original sling. Shooting a ball projectile is not technically correct and will not be very accurate at longer ranges.

    An unusual view of a M/65 breech showing the deep rifling of the Dreyse system.

    Shall send more Chassepot and Dreyse attachments if you want.

    Best regards,

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dreyse jager breech rifling view.jpg   Dreyse F60 original sling.jpg   Chassepot cartridge tools.jpg   Dreyse karabine bolt dismantled.jpg  

  38. #128
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    any kind of sabot bullets from a breech loader is not legal under the german gunlaw. people how trying all have told me the H&N slugged roundball's of 15,4mm(iirc the size) will giving the best accuracy and you dont have a chance on the german needle fire championship when using other stuff
    http://www.zuendnadel.info/Sportlich...rmine_....html
    of course, roundballs losing energy and velocity very quick but 50 -100 meter target shooting isn't the problem

  39. #129
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    Feurwerker,

    The kind of competitions we enter at Bisley are held at 200 yards and beyond therefore the correct cartridge (Patrone M/55) is a prerequisite.

    Target attachment: Dreyse M/41 allied with facsimile Patrone M/55. Two are touching.

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dreyse 41 target.jpg  

  40. #130
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    Wapruf2 is offline Diamond Member with Oak Leaves and Swords
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    Can anybody suggest a source for a triggerguard and screws for an M54 Pikenbüchse? I have an almost new one issued to the Navy which evidently came back from WW2 since it has a barracks bag cut stock but the entire triggerguard unit is missing....

  41. #131
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    a M 54 is a rare modell at all, I would say you have no chance to find the parts. try to locate a complete rifle, carfully measure the parts and builds them new.

  42. #132
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    I know its rare, especially in the US. I've been looking for one to copy for 25 years.... I think an M62 can be reworked but I need a sample or drawings. I have a spare M62 triggerguard.

  43. #133
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    Thanks so much to all, especially WyoWillys46, Kernbeisser, Orcutt & Guy & Leonhard G A-R-West.

    I have a friend in Germany who has taken my drawings for my needed cocking piece (much of which I received from you all) and is entering the dimensions into a CAD program. He believes he can get it produced there. If he gets it done, I will attempt to final fit the finished cocking piece into my mod 57.

    I have a question for Wyowillys46. Is the bullet for a Karabiner truly only .535 diameter? I have contacted Old West Moulds and that is what they told me. My barrel mic's .590 across the flats (top of the 4 groove rifling). The groove depth is .665. Does the bullet truly free float down the barrel only being kept true by the base/sabot? I cannot believe the silk wrapping would ever come off the projectile as the lead would never press the silk against the rifling. How thick is the silk wrapping? What grain weight and granulation did you use for yours?

    To G A-R West, I was able to get copies of your magazine articles. Great job! They will go into my permanent Dreyse folder for reference. Kernbeisser suggested plastics industries ejector pencils for the needle itself. Is the length of the naked needle (beyond the socket area) a fixed length or do I need to adjust the length by trial and error. Is there a length I should try first? I have not been able to measure the id of the needle socket. What diameter needle should I ask for?

    To all; My Dreyse 57 seems to have no markings to speak of. I have heard of numbers painted onto the butt and mine has none. I will relate what it does have. I hope you might be able to relate to me what they all mean. The buttplate has a "37" stamped into it on the rear along with the crown proof on the top. The triggerguard plate has only the crown proof over an "R" (I think). There is no serial or assembly number on it ( I have not removed it from the stock as of yet). The butt stock has a large crown over what looks to be a italicized "W" on the right side. The action has a three digit serial number as well as "Sommerda N D Mod 1857" . The action and barrel seem to have a stylized Imperial Eagle(?). The barrel on the left side seems to have a "59" stamped into it along with a crown with an "FW" under it. on the left underflat there seems to be a "K". The bottom flat has a large Eagle, An "FF", a stylized "S", something that looks like a italic "V" and a italic W. The right underflat ha a "7" and a marking I can't make out. The right side flat has 4 identical proofmarks of the crown over a "A" surrounding 2 proofmarks over "R"s. The action has 2 crown over "R" proofs with one more I can't make out. Most of the parts have assembly numbers on them including the screws except the guard/plate and the nose cap. Is this normal? Do you all think the 37 on the butt refers to a reg't or a stacking #? I have found a gentleman who says he has some original bases/sleeves for the cartridge. When he gets them out I will hopefully be able to purchase one of each to copy.

    Thanks for any help you may be inclined to give.

    Hopfenmuller

  44. #134
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    Hello Hopfenmuller,

    I had the mold made according to a dimensioned picture that Guy & Leonard sent me. The bullet that drops from the mold is pretty close to the picture I received from them. Everything is packed in boxes right now, but .535" sounds about right.

  45. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopfenmuller View Post
    I have a question for Wyowillys46. Is the bullet for a Karabiner truly only .535 diameter? I have contacted Old West Moulds and that is what they told me. My barrel mic's .590 across the flats (top of the 4 groove rifling). The groove depth is .665. Does the bullet truly free float down the barrel only being kept true by the base/sabot? I cannot believe the silk wrapping would ever come off the projectile as the lead would never press the silk against the rifling. How thick is the silk wrapping? What grain weight and granulation did you use for yours?Hopfenmuller
    The sabot really does work, although making it is a PITA to get the cavity right for the ovoid bullet. I have made mine using cereal box card and it seems to work quite well although I have not tested them extensively. The sabot must be tight enough on the bullet to transfer the rifle twist but also loose enough to separate at the muzzle. I will also try round ball like Kernbeisser recommends (I only shoot to 100m). There are also some who use a custom maxiball projectile which enables you to dispense with sabots altogether.
    My own virtual museum, growing one entry at a time. Keep checking back!
    http://militarygunsofeurope.eu/

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