For those who have an interest in Dreyse needle rifles being shot with their correct cartridges, we have attached a few photos of a M/57 Karabiner, F/60, M/62, M/41 and a very rare Hessian Zűndnadelbüchse M/65 U/M under recoil. All of these rifles have been entered in competitions and demonstrations.
Other needle ignition of interest to be posted at a later date are the M/65 Jaeger, Mle.1866 fusil, Mle. 1866 carbine and Italian Carcano fucile.
The needle ignition system is great fun to shoot and a challenge for those who enjoy making unusual cartridges.
For the needle ignition aficionados, a Dreyse Zündnadelgewehr M/62 being evaluated against an M/41. After a protracted testing found the M/62 to be the superior infantry rifle.
The most accurate of the Dreyse system was Jägerbüchse M/65. The attached is a rare M/65 Beck conversion still with its original rear sight configuration.
Fine piece. Mine has the second pattern sight and the receiver is in the white; I can't explain that but that's the way it showed up; they are supposed to be browned. You will find mine in Mowbray's new book on bolt actions.
I know the receiver is supposed to be browned; that's why I pointed out that, for some reason, the one I have is not browned. It does not show any evidence of ever having been browned when removed from the stock. Unfortunately I have no provenance. "Tis a mystery."
I have been drooling over all this Dreyse talk and I have decided to take the plunge, when I can find one that is, it will go well with my Chassepot and Tabatière as a small 1870/71 war collection.
My questions are about the Beck conversion. Am I right in saying that this was done after the 70/71 war? Also I have not managed to get a clear picture or description of what the beck conversion is, aside from using leather washers.
To answer your questions of the Beck system we have lifted some information from our work on the Dreyse system. Our intention is to compile a comprehensive work covering all of the Dreyse system, cartridge construction of all of the types used and ballistic evaluation plus a ballistic evaluation against the Mle. 1866 Chassepot:-
The definitive cartridge known initially as the n/A, neuer art (new pattern) and then adopted as the Patrone M/72 was tested before the 1870-1 war and accepted. The efficacy of converting the rifles had to be halted at the start of the 1870-1 Franco-German war due to logistic reasons. The cartridge base was modified inasmuch a lubricated felt cup with concentric cross-cut was introduced which enabled the needle a smoother passage through it, also providing the breech enhanced sealing qualities. The felt cup base from the previous shot was left in the bore origin and pushed out by the successive round. This cartridge could be seated by the bolt thereby enhancing the ability for more rapid shooting.
The bolt modification made to the Dreyse was copied from the French Chassepot rifle and as with many good ideas it was very simple. All that was required was a small modification to the bolt-head in which a sliding device (Vershlußkopf) was inserted into the Luftkammer opening and when under compression from combustion activated an expanding rubber obturator hermetically sealing the chamber. This combined with the new cartridge resulted in almost doubling effective range and velocity, faster loading was also possible as the cartridge could be chambered into the breech by the bolt. In addition the needle did not become fouled due to the lubricating cup in the case’s base. This ingeniously modified system was overshadowed by the introduction of the M/71 Mauser.
Thank you for the explanation. I may be on to a M62 rifle without the Beck conversion, it would thus be perfect for my collection as far as I can tell.
For fans of these wonderful rifles, the meisterwerk of Rolf Wirtgen: Das Zündnadelgewehr - Eine militärtechnische Revolution im 19.Jhd. Mittler is available from www.gunbooks.co.uk for a mere 40GBP. Just ordered my copy!
The effect of a fixed Fusilierseitengewher F/S M/60 on barrel harmonics at 100m. Group widened by 200mm. Test rifle a Fusiliergewehr Model 1860 made in Sömmerda marked: 'Z.G. Mod 60'. Target left is with bayonet fixed and the right without. Cartridge used is a facsimile of the Patrone M/55.
Can you tell us when the article will be coming out and what publication it will be in? I'm really looking forward to it.
Almost forgot. As a bit of information to the other Dreyse owners out there. The threading on my needle holder is metric M4.0x.7 I'm not sure if this will vary between models.
Guy and Leonard,
I'm also very interested in your article and look forward to seeing it. Will it include information on the constuction of the cartridge? Also, the disassembly of the bolt would be very interesting. Hope it is published soon. Regards, Guns
Have just had confirmation that our article on the Dreyse needle ignition system is going to be printed in 'The Gun Report' . Not sure of the date, but March-April possible. There is information on the cartridges and illustrations of bolt (components and cross section), battle scene and uniforms.
I received my beautiful M/62 yesterday and have been playing with it. Could anyone describe the correct bolt operation for loading and arming the needle? Seems a little more complex than with my Chassepot.
I'm going by memory here as I don't have mine handy.
With the bolt closed, push the L-shaped metal portion at the back of the bolt forward (it will snap into place). This will cock the action. It is then ready to fire. Once it's fired, press down on the "L" and retract it back. The bolt is then ready to be opened and a cartridge inserted.
Ok, to I got it right then! There is just one point that gets me, after firing, I retract the "L", open and pull the bolt back, at this point the bolt tube slides back over the needle tube such that the needle still protrudes considerably so I have to pull the "L" back a second time once the bolt is fully back to avoid stabbing myself with the needle while playing.
Thanks for the link and info and I have a question for all Dreyse owners. How many of your needle rifles are matching and if not what are common mismatched parts? In the USA most of the models other than the 1862 seem NOT to have matching numbers but I was not sure how common of a thing matching is.
For those expressing interest in the Dreyse needle rifle system, it has been confirmed by the editor that the article shall be printed in 'The Gun Report' - part 1 October, part 2 November.
Attachment: Bisley 2009, Dreyse M/62 bench rested and copy of cartridges in their packet.
Guy and Leonard A-R-West
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