XM21 reproduction & early scope set info
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Thread: XM21 reproduction & early scope set info

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    Default XM21 reproduction & early scope set info

    I've been researching the US Army XM21 sniper rifles (Viet Nam era)for awhile & am in the process of building an accurate reproduction, there seems to be a bit of confusion about these rifles & the scopes they used & often ARTII scope sets are advertised & sold as Viet Nam era which isn't correct. The Viet Nam era scopes are as follows:
    1) Commercial redfield 3x9 scope mkd "Redfield 3x9", these were commercial scopes which were modified by changing the reticule which had stadia ranging lines added & affixing a cam to the power adjuster ring of the scope which matched the M118 match cartridge the rifles were designed to use. These scopes were in commercial blue finish & the mods were done by the army & mounted on an Army designed mount which had a cam pin at the rear which raised/lowered the rear of the scope in the mount when the cam was turned, these mounts used a "1 point" mounting system, 1 screw held the mount to the rifle, the cams on these scopes were fitted over the original power rings.
    2) Commercial Redfield 3x9 mkd "Redfield 1" tube", this is the same scope but a later marking variation, all the above applies to this variation
    3) Military contract AR TEL (adjustable ranging telescope), these were mfg by Redfield for the Army, approximately 2000 mfg, these were based on the above commercial 3x9 designs but were mfg w/the military reticle & had the original power adjuster ring replaced by the M118 ballistic cam & were finished in a matte finish, they were marked AR TEL on the turret. These scopes are often erroneously called ARTI scopes in collectors circles.
    4) ART scope, this is the first ART scope, it was a Leatherwood design, he was a Lt in the Army at the time & the scopes were reportedly mfg by Realistic, some were used on the M16 & a few may have been tried on the M14/XM21 at the very end of the Viet Nam war but was not issue w/the XM21, these scopes were mkd on the body ART, this could more properly be termed ARTI although not the official designation.
    5) ARTII scope, this scope is a developement of the above scope w/minor improvements in the scope & a major modification of the mount, the original AR TEL 1 point mount could come loose from firing etc, the ARTII scope utilized an improved 2 point mounting system, the front mount was the same as the AR TEL but added a second screw attachment to the clip guide on the receiver & was more stable in use. This set was a post war (VietNam) developement, it was mfg by Leatherwood after he left the service & became the standard scope set on the standardized M21 in late 72-73. part of the confusion on these seems to stem from the fact that the XM21 was an "experimental/developemental" arm during the Viet Nam war, it became standardized in the Army as the M21 in 72-73, early on the wartime era XM21's became M21's overnight & some soldiered on for a few years in their original configuration alongside newer production M21's w/ARTII sets, some may have been refitted w/ARTII's subsequently also during refit. The bottom line appears to be though that the XM21 Viet Nam service rifles utilized the 1 point AR TEL/Redfield system, the ARTII/Leatherwood system was a post-Viet Nam introduction on the M21 standardized sniper rifles after Viet Nam, officially & technically there was no ARTI system, rather the developemental versions which led to the ARTII were being worked on/tested near the end of the war & were known as the ART scopes.
    The XM21 itself was not a National Match M14 as far as they weren't necessarily built from production national Match rifle production, rather they were built from M14 receivers w/National Match modifications done by the AMTU (Army Marksmenship training Unit) utilizing NM barrels within a specific guage tolerance (tailored for the M118 match round), unitized gas cylinder/band, special operating spring guides, epoxy impregnated walnut stocks (to resist changes from humidity/heat etc) & bedded to a very specific tolerance as required by the AMTU, trigger groups were worked to a pull of 4.5-7lbs, handguards were kept free of any contact w/the barrel & stock & the rifles were assembled to extreme tolerances by the armorers. They were designed to be used specifically w/M118 match cartridges (although anything can happen in the field). In my time in the service 71-72 basically anything that had to be done to them required the attention of a specific armorer trained & approved to work on them (again, lots of s..t happens in the field). Also they had the selectors replaced w/a button lock rendering them semi-auto although there are reports some were refitted in the field w/full auto capability.
    The reproduction (if you want one it's gotta be a repro, M14's are considered NFA & are a nono) I'm working on uses an pre ban, 86 production Springfield Armory Inc full NM rifle which appears to have all the obvious points listed above done (some of the mods done to the XM21 subsequently became NM standards rather than the other way around, remember these rifles were fighting the good fight in 1968!), I started by geting 2 early (60's) commercial Redfield 3x9's & a Springfield Armory Inc MKIV mount, using these makes a very accurate (cosmetically) setup for a VN era XM21 since the scopes are what the actual AR TEL scopes were made from. I subsequently located an original AR TEL mount on the loose & of course, right after spending all that money found an original AR TEL scope/mount set complete w/the original rubber/plastic redfield lens covers these originally were supplied with (& usually fell off when it got hot!, they tended to swell). I'm awaiting an exc original GI walnut stock & dummy selector button & arm, then the rifle & stock are going to be bedded to the 1969 AMTU specs for the XM21.
    Sorry for the long post but there has been a bit of interest in the XM21 lately & a lot of confusing info going around, I set up a small album on my rifle including the scopes & scope sets so if anyone is looking to a reproduction of an XM21 you can see what your options are for a VN era setup, they range from fairly expensive to nuts!
    All the info (opinions?) above are mine & mistakes are mine, there is good info in Senichs "One Round War" & the "US Army Sniper", also the Govt pubs on the XM21 & AR TEL. If anyone has any more info or corrections please let me know & I'll add it to the album as time & the work on the rifle goes on! here's a link to the album/pics:
    http://imageevent.com/willyp/firearm...ieldxm21sniper

  2. #2

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    Crap we had a 4X P.X. scope on some angle iron. The set up didn't work worth comment. At the time we had a half dozen guys who could still shoot the M-14 well at 400 yards and our best shot in my year was just over 500 yards. Hey the comrad had a white bullhorn. "His bad" as my grand kids would say.

    Nice photos thanks for posting them. May I keep one or two of your pictures if I lable them willyp? I have two of your enfields so labled in my files.

    I did see another scoped M-14 rifle N.W. of Dak To in late June or early July 1968. I didn't look like a motor pool job and the guy with him had a large monoscope. I took little notice because in late May I had seen my first scoped M16 and short M-16 with a 30 rd magazine. All in rear safe areas down by he coast. I was flying in a DC3 with a lot of ARVN families and new kids. I noted these rifles in the hands of guys with new uniforms and boots. In those days if you wanted to know about a guy you looked at his boots. Things where changing and I was SHORT! 45 and counting.

    I would love to shoot a real M21 on a short course.

    Cheers
    ..MJ..
    67/68
    Last edited by MJ; 06-18-2008 at 10:54 PM.

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    Great post! Because our Gov't can't trust us with semi auto firearms I have avoided getting too excited about this sort of stuff. When I saw the heading, I recalled seeing an XM21 at a military small arms museum close to here. I looked back into my pictures and found this shot below. Not a good display for photographing... apologies for the quality.

    The blurb says...
    XM21. A highly accurised US M14 rifle developed to replace the aging M1C, M1D and M1903 sniper rifles. Australian soldiers from 1st Battallion, Royal Australian Regiment were trained on the weapon by the Americans in Vietnam mid 1970 and deployed during operation Ciang Chung 3 (? could be wrong..)
    Calibre 7.62mm
    Length 1112mm
    Weight 5.11 kg
    Magazine capacity 5 or 20 (?)
    Telescopic Sight Redfield Leatherwood 3 - 9 power (magnification)
    Country of Origin United States
    Can be fitted with a (?) sound suppressor

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    Last year or so The NRA Rifleman magazine had a story about these. If I remember correctly it said there was a supressed version with a night vision scope that had a large i/r illuminator.

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    MJ, there were a lot of M14's fitted w/various scopes/mounts used up to & even after the XM21's were introduced, th various "field snipers" were actually one of the driving points behind the XM21's developement I believe due to the fact, as you stated even the "put togethers" turned out to be very effective! A friend of mine, a Marine told me they had a scoped M14 in his unit in Nam,he believes it was an M82 scope? (the one from the M1D) & he said he was pretty impressed w/it's accuracy, he was in country 68-69. You're welcome to the pics, no problem, I just lock the pics in the albums because a few pics of my rifles have shown up on commercial sites, purporting the guns in the pics are the ones the dealers were selling!
    Son, thanks, hoping the posting garners some new info or corrections!, the rifle in your pic is fitted w/an AR TEL scope which is a Redfield, not a Leatherwood, this is one of the oft repeated mistakes on these rifles, I believe Lt Leatherwood may have worked on the concept for the Army while the AR TEL was being developed but it was an Army scope mfg by Redfield, he later was involved w/the original ART scope w/Realistic Corp I believe & after leaving the Army began mfg of the ARTII as a Leatherwood scope. The pic in your post definitely has the VN era ART TEL set, it also is correctly fitted w/the button selector lock, it appears (in the pic) to be missing the flash suppressor/front sight/bayonet lug which is something not usually seperated from the XM21's as it's one of the components which was modified specifically for the XM21 to an exact set of specs, that being said the XM's were used w/sound suppressors which required the removal of the flash suppressor, if this is an XM it may explain the missing component, otherwise it's hard to id an XM21 w/o closeup examination, most of the modifications/parts that made an XM21 an XM21 are not readily visible.
    Mauser202, thanks for the tip on the magazine, I'll have to see if I can find that one (don't remember it), bad thing is a lot of mags, books etc repeat a lot of the "common knowledge" errors about these guns, ie: the Viet Nam era scope system was the ARTI, or a leatherwood etc. As you said the XM21's were used at times w/a sound suppressor, although they're usually mentioned in use w/the later AN/PVS1-2-2B 1st generation Starlight scopes, which were a "passive" NV device as opposd to the AN/PAS4, which is the Infra Red NV scope set you mentioned, the IR set was an active device & could be detected fairly easily by the 1960's, it was a descendant of the WWII era IR scope set from the M3 Carbine. They were in fact used w/the M14/XM21 in Viet Nam, mainly early on due to the detectability, in fact the early Soviet SVD Dragunov scope had a built in IR detecor in it's scope! I know the IR scopes were at times used late in the war, 1971 in fact! but I believe that's the exception rather than the rule, by 1968-69 the main NV scopes were the 1st generation Starlights mentioned above which were quite a bit more effective (not being easily detected was a bonus too!) I've attached a few pics of the project rifle fitted w/both the early AN/PAS4 IR scope & the later AN/PVS2 starlight, both scopes use the same mount (there's a pic of this mount also). An interesting point about these scopes, due to the offset to the left it was actually pretty comfortable to use a standard cheek weld on the stock if you used your left eye for the scope! of course the drawback was usually (for right hand shooters) it's the weak eye so the the rifle/scope combo should be zeroed by the user that way! If operated normally using either of these scopes was a bit "odd/uncomfortable". The AN/PVS starlight scopes were also used on the M16's using a specific mount, there's more pics of both the AN/PAS4 IR scope & the AN/PVS2 starlight scopes added to the album listed in the above link, some accessories, the M14/XM mount & M16 mounts are also shown.
    Last edited by willyp; 06-20-2008 at 08:54 AM.

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    I think the ART II came in after Vietnam, mid 70's?

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    Nice to see some accurate info. There is so much false information out there it blows my mind. I'm a two tour guy, discharged in 71 and I'm amazed at what I sometimes see as fact.

    By the way, if you or anyone needs an AN/PAS-4, I've got a minty one for sale. They are very cool.

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    my brother has one,
    he uses it to shoot deer at golfcourse at night
    they pay him 100 a deer
    said the best 900 dollars he ever spent

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    Thread revival:

    I recently found an ART that is fixed power instead of 3x9. It has the original mount, minus the top half of the rings. Can anyone provide me with leads on finding the top rings? I have searched hi and low and am not having any luck. I found one guy who wants to trade for an ART2, but I am only interested in restoring this to its original state. I've been told it is very valuable, but I'm not looking to sell it. I want it on my rifle. I would also appreciate any additional information forum members might have to share regarding this scope.

  11. #10

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    Condition1 not sure about an "ART" scope that's fixed power as an original XM21/M21 scope set, when the Army began developement of the XM21 system the original scope they started with was the Redfield 3x9 variable scope in 2 markings configurations (but the same scope), they modified the reticule & added the ballistic cam for the M118 match round, these scopes were the pre-production/developement models, after the system as a whole was proven the Army procured a contract with Redfield to produce the production version of the AR TEL scope, these scopes were Redfield 3x9 variable power w/the military reticule & M118 ballistic cam which was mounted to the scope a bit differently than the pre-production models, they were finished in a dull black & are marked on the left turret AR TEL not ART, the scopes described & pictured in the album in the original link are the original Viet Nam era XM21 scope sets for the system & the mount has the built-in hinged "camming" feature built in to automatically adjust the range on the scope, this scope/mount combination along with modifications made to the M14 rifle itself are what made the XM21/M21 what it was. There were a number of scopes in the late 60's early 70's either influenced by Leatherwood's design or actually produced by Leatherwood after he left the Army & began his own business, some scopes were by Realist, Leatherwood & a few other mfgs which are marked ART, the term ART actually refers to a number of "automatic/adjustable range telescopes" almost all of which were commercial products not military, the original military scope sets were Redfields as described above & are actually AR TEL scopes & were fitted to all the original XM21 rifles to my knowledge, in the very late 60's/early 70's Leatherwood reportedly developed another scope based on the above camming feature which was mfg by Realist in an attempt at an Army contract, some of these were reportedly tested by the Army near the end of the VietNam war but were not adopted/purchased by the Army (this may actually be the first "ART" scope by nomenclature, just after this Leatherwood came up with the ARTII (both the "ART" described previously & the ARTII were designed to address some of the "problems" w/the original AR TEL's), the Army adopted/purchased the ARTII's along with the second generation "2 point mount" in the mid-late 70's & this combination is what is generally considered to be the M21, this gets a bit confusing though as the XM21 was considered an "experimental/test" system through I believe 1974 (all w/the Redfield mfg AR TEL scope sets & single point mounts), at that time the Army adopted it as their standard sniper system & the nomenclature was changed to M21 so for a short period of time the original XM21/AR TEL system was actually the M21 also, between 74 & 76 the system (M21) was updated to the ARTII & 2pt mount & this was the production standard commonly referred to as the M21 although original VN era XM21 rifles w/the AR TEL's & the M21 w/ARTII's served side by side for a number of years as the "M21"
    Pics of your scope/mount combination, especially the markings on the scope would help to id what you have.

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    It is Realist. Has ART by the left turret like you said, and the ser. number. below ART.
    Thanks, willyp. I also replied to your PM. You obviously know a lot more than I do about these. I was just glad to find what I figured was a quality optic made in the US. I will post some photographs tomorrow morning.
    edit: Worst case is that I have a good scope without the ranging capabilities, I guess.
    Last edited by condition1; 07-29-2009 at 03:37 PM.

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    Just so happens I took a few snaps of an XM21 sniper rifle which was issued to the Aussies in Vietnam in 1969 and is now in the Infantry Museum just last week.

    Don't know anything about the rifle, so you'll probably get more from the pics than me:









    It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming.

    Former US President Teddy Roosevelt.

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    here they are willyp. I don't know what the geared portions of the mount are for. Or even which should be the front. Does the scope require a cam? i understand the mount actually tilted when ranging, but even with the missing pieces, I can't see how it would move.
    I'm leaving it up to someone who knows more about it.

    eta: I drew the reticle, I couldn't get an accurate photograph of it.
    Last edited by condition1; 07-30-2009 at 08:57 AM.

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    Heatseeker, great pics thanx!!!, did you by any chance get a pic of the markings (or see) on the heel of the receiver? reportedly some of these were restamped XM21 but I've never seen one, my time w/the rifle was 30yrs ago & I wasn't a collector then & have no idea what the markings were! Interesting that it's missing the suppressor/front sight assembly, the last time it was used it may have been w/a suppressor (sound suppressor) fitted, the XM21 sight/suppressor had to be removed to fit the sound suppressor, usually they were kept w/the rifles anally as the original suppressors were reamed & cut to be parellel to the bore axis on the XM21. I'm waiting for an appointment w/the curator of the West Point Museum to get a good look at their XM21.
    Condition1, nice scope, not too many around. Your scope is a Realist Camputor auto/range 4x fixed power scope (item#5955 from the 71-72 Realist catalog @ $119.50), production from 1972-1974 & current value $275-475 depending on condition & completeness (cam, mount etc), the previous info is from "Old Gunsights & Rifle Scopes" by Nick Stroebel. Lt Leatherwood was key in the design for the Army of the Viet Nam AR TEL Redfield scopes used on the XM21's, after leaving the army he continued working on the ART system & developed the scope sets that were sold by Realist starting in 1968, there were both fixed & variable power versions available in differing powers, one of the variable power versions of the scope you have was a 3x9 & reportedly the Army tested some of these late in Viet Nam & just after on the M16A1 but no contracts were signed. The Realist camputor auto/range scopes are a commercial scope not a military scope although some were reportedly purchased & used individually in VN on M16's but not officially. According to Realist's own marketing they were good out to 500 yards which is too short a distance for the XM21's range. After Realist went out of business leatherwood continued working on the design & subsequently started his own company, the ARTII scope was tested & adopted by the Army in the mid 70's for the then standard M21 system. Your scope appears to have the cam, it's in front of the range ring, it's the smooth round ring, it'll have a continous "raising" circumference on it, when the ring is turned the raised" section of the cam should contact the extension on the mount & should raise the rear of the scope as you turn the range dial up, the scope itself should be "hinged" to the mount & there should be a fairly strong spring arrangement to keep it steady. It actually works on the same principle as the AR TEL & ARTII just the mechanics of the camming feature appear to be a bit different. On the military AR TEL & ARTII scopes the ballistic cam is specifically calibrated for trajectory of the pre 85 M118 match round (there were reportedly also cams for the M855 & the .50 cal round) although the XM21/M21 systems were designed to be used w/the M118 match round. I don't know any of the specifics of the cam design on the Realist scopes, ie: if they had different cams for different calibres or if they were generic so have no info there. From a collectors view though if you're trying to build a fairly accurate replica of the the Army XM21/M21 system the Realist wouldn't be "correct" (although I'm sure it would shoot/function fine), a trade for an ARTII would be much in your favor I believe as the going prices on ARTII sets I've seen run between $1000-1500, of course the problem w/original Redfield AR TEL & Leatherwood ARTII's is they're specifically cammed for the M118 match round which is available but pricey! but at the range of the Realist (500yds) I'd tend to believe the AR TEL or ART should work just as well w/your cartridge. It all depends on how accurate (or anal LOL) you want to be! Regarding the "cuts" on your mount I believe they're for Weaver type mounts. I have one of the M16 mounts that the Realist auto/range scopes were used with & I believe it's a "Weaver rail" on the M16 mount.
    Last edited by willyp; 07-30-2009 at 03:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willyp View Post
    Heatseeker, great pics thanx!!!, did you by any chance get a pic of the markings (or see) on the heel of the receiver? reportedly some of these were restamped XM2.

    Interesting that it's missing the suppressor/front sight assembly, the last time it was used it may have been w/a suppressor (sound suppressor) fitted, the XM21 sight/suppressor had to be removed to fit the sound suppressor, usually they were kept w/the rifles anally as the original suppressors were reamed & cut to be parellel to the bore axis on the XM21.

    Your scope is a Realist Camputor auto/range 4x fixed power scope (item#5955 from the 71-72 Realist catalog @ $119.50), production from 1972-1974 & current value $275-475 depending on condition & completeness (cam, mount etc), the previous info is from "Old Gunsights & Rifle Scopes" by Nick Stroebel. From a collectors view though if you're trying to build a fairly accurate replica of the the Army XM21/M21 system the Realist wouldn't be "correct" (although I'm sure it would shoot/function fine), a trade for an ARTII would be much in your favor I believe as the going prices on ARTII sets I've seen run between $1000-1500, of course the problem w/original Redfield AR TEL & Leatherwood ARTII's is they're specifically cammed for the M118 match round which is available but pricey!
    I've known that rifle for at least 30 years ... when it was held in the armoury of 8/9 RAR, the suppressor was fitted, but it was missing when the rifle was handed to the Infantry Centre museum in 1997 when 8/9 was disbanded (thankfully re-raised in 2007).

    As far as I know, that rifle is in the configuration it was issued to 8 RAR in 1969.

    Here is a pic of 8 RAR Diggers and US trainers with it:

    It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming.

    Former US President Teddy Roosevelt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willyp View Post
    Heatseeker, great pics thanx!!!, did you by any chance get a pic of the markings (or see) on the heel of the receiver? reportedly some of these were restamped XM21.
    Here's an enlargement of one of the photos:

    It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming.

    Former US President Teddy Roosevelt.

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    Thank you very much, willyp. You have been a big help.

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    Did this scope set up have th same problems as the M1, meaning was it mounted off center?

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    Heatseeker thanks much for the close-up! very important pic for me!
    re: the scope mount question, not sure which mount/scope you're talking about but the original military M14/XM21/M21 mounts are all over center bore as I believe all the commercial mounts available for them, the Garand used an off-set mount due to the "Mannlicher" style en bloc clip, an over bore mount on a Garand makes it almost impossible to load the clips (which are needed for operation of the rifle) & would have at the least been "dinged" everytime the empty clip was ejected, probably not good for the scope. The M14/M1A uses a removeable box mag which alleviated the need for the offset mounts.
    Last edited by willyp; 08-11-2009 at 02:23 PM.

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    Great photos all and as always Phil, excellent job both in photos and information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heatseeker64 View Post
    Just so happens I took a few snaps of an XM21 sniper rifle which was issued to the Aussies in Vietnam in 1969 and is now in the Infantry Museum just last week.

    Don't know anything about the rifle, so you'll probably get more from the pics than me:






    What kind of rifle is above the XM21 on this picture?
    TIA

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    Quote Originally Posted by samf View Post
    What kind of rifle is above the XM21 on this picture?
    TIA
    Parker Hale Model 82
    Guide to Russian Optics Manufacturers

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-Manufacturers

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    Thank you.

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    just to keep this very informative thread alive,
    my M1a, converted in 86, built to 67
    NM standards w/ original redfield, (what is desribed as #1 in the first post)

    what's so funny about peace love and understanding?

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    Great rifle Lyman. Now to find a scope and mount, not to mention lots of money. At least I have a good rifle for the role.

    I agree, great posts and thanks for BTT Chad.

    You still doing OK Phil?

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    It's been so long but I think the first time I saw an issued M14 with the ART scope was late May or early June 1968 around Dak To with the 4th Div. when a platoon passed through us on a hill top.
    None of the lash-ups i had seen till then had impressed me and we were still knocking them dick-stiff at range without scopes so we just noted the rifle with an 'About time.' and went back to work. Little did we know we had seen a bit of history,,LOL.
    Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.
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    I smell a whopper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Explosive

    That's nothing.
    I bought five No4Mk1T's test fired only, all with walnut stocks in their transit chests and with the scope cans with matching scopes. $725 for all five rifles.

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    NICE...info

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    Quote Originally Posted by willyp View Post
    Condition1 not sure about an "ART" scope that's fixed power as an original XM21/M21 scope set, when the Army began developement of the XM21 system the original scope they started with was the Redfield 3x9 variable scope in 2 markings configurations (but the same scope), they modified the reticule & added the ballistic cam for the M118 match round, these scopes were the pre-production/developement models, after the system as a whole was proven the Army procured a contract with Redfield to produce the production version of the AR TEL scope, these scopes were Redfield 3x9 variable power w/the military reticule & M118 ballistic cam which was mounted to the scope a bit differently than the pre-production models, they were finished in a dull black & are marked on the left turret AR TEL not ART, the scopes described & pictured in the album in the original link are the original Viet Nam era XM21 scope sets for the system & the mount has the built-in hinged "camming" feature built in to automatically adjust the range on the scope, this scope/mount combination along with modifications made to the M14 rifle itself are what made the XM21/M21 what it was. There were a number of scopes in the late 60's early 70's either influenced by Leatherwood's design or actually produced by Leatherwood after he left the Army & began his own business, some scopes were by Realist, Leatherwood & a few other mfgs which are marked ART, the term ART actually refers to a number of "automatic/adjustable range telescopes" almost all of which were commercial products not military, the original military scope sets were Redfields as described above & are actually AR TEL scopes & were fitted to all the original XM21 rifles to my knowledge, in the very late 60's/early 70's Leatherwood reportedly developed another scope based on the above camming feature which was mfg by Realist in an attempt at an Army contract, some of these were reportedly tested by the Army near the end of the VietNam war but were not adopted/purchased by the Army (this may actually be the first "ART" scope by nomenclature, just after this Leatherwood came up with the ARTII (both the "ART" described previously & the ARTII were designed to address some of the "problems" w/the original AR TEL's), the Army adopted/purchased the ARTII's along with the second generation "2 point mount" in the mid-late 70's & this combination is what is generally considered to be the M21, this gets a bit confusing though as the XM21 was considered an "experimental/test" system through I believe 1974 (all w/the Redfield mfg AR TEL scope sets & single point mounts), at that time the Army adopted it as their standard sniper system & the nomenclature was changed to M21 so for a short period of time the original XM21/AR TEL system was actually the M21 also, between 74 & 76 the system (M21) was updated to the ARTII & 2pt mount & this was the production standard commonly referred to as the M21 although original VN era XM21 rifles w/the AR TEL's & the M21 w/ARTII's served side by side for a number of years as the "M21"
    Pics of your scope/mount combination, especially the markings on the scope would help to id what you have.
    I may possibly have a leatherwood prototype from the early 70s.Says 3x9 only on what would be otherwise a Art turret base. Made by realist. with a couple of cams, heavier rings and on a weaver/picatinny mount. Has the Artel reticle. Not a computer. The guy who gave it to me says he got it from jim and it was a prototype, which means nothing. Just a story. Dark grey black like a early art. says it is set up for the m118. The usual bracket and shoot method.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails art scope 1.jpg  

    art scope.jpg  

    Last edited by mjmd; 03-27-2017 at 11:50 AM.

  30. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjmd View Post
    I may possibly have a leatherwood prototype from the early 70s.Says 3x9 only on what would be otherwise a Art turret base. Made by realist. with a couple of cams, heavier rings and on a weaver/pica tinny mount. Has the Artel reticle. Not a computer. The guy who gave it to me says he got it from jim and it was a prototype, which means nothing. Just a story. Dark grey black like a early art. says it is set up for the m118. The usual bracket and shoot.
    That looks hard to fake. Impressive. Hope someone has some more answers.

    Anyone seen any of the adapter mounts used to mount an M1C rig on these. I have one.

    From previous discussions and my research on scoped M14s, I am not sure we know exactly what is up with these rifles and their use in Nam. They were surely used but how, who(Chuck M for sure), to what extent, what scopes, Art 1 only, ??.

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    It looks ok. Would like to see any markings. I have several early ART's, Redfields, Artel's, etc., Also a couple M14 bases to mount M1C mounts. IIRC Steel & Aluminum, will have to do some digging. If I can find some pictures will post right away, if not couple days. Most of the VN sniper equipment is covered in detail in Chandler's 5 book series on Snipers or Senich's 6 book series. Except for Mitch VerBels MAC Scopes, which were located later.

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    This thread coming back to life made me realize that Forum member willyp is another guy who seems to have disappeared. His last posts were eight years ago? It's amazing how time flies. He used to be a very active member with his beautiful photo collections of rare guns and militaria.

    So what happened to willyp?
    Purists of the world, unite!

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
    Samuel Adams

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    MJMD, Here are a couple pictures of one on my ART collection, looks just like yours.
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  34. #33
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    Couple more pictures, First is an early Redfield ARTel and then a "Cobrey" Military Armament Corp Leatherwood I purchased from Jim 20 - 30 years ago. Enjoy - Skid
    Looks like Pic's got mixed, #4 5 & 6 are the MAC Cobrey
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  35. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard in NY* View Post
    This thread coming back to life made me realize that Forum member willyp is another guy who seems to have disappeared. His last posts were eight years ago? It's amazing how time flies. He used to be a very active member with his beautiful photo collections of rare guns and militaria.

    So what happened to willyp?
    I sent him a message

  36. #35
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    Question

    There's a local. That has a new in box Rem. 308'Sniper re make from company ...
    green casted scope redfield
    I couldn't find it any where in books on the net?
    Asking 1,500 in its org. Factory Case...
    I'm not Rem. Fan.

  37. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DK PHILLIPS View Post
    There's a local. That has a new in box Rem. 308'Sniper re make from company ...
    green casted scope redfield
    I couldn't find it any where in books on the net?
    Asking 1,500 in its org. Factory Case...
    I'm not Rem. Fan.
    hope this helps Dan

    MODEL 40-SSA SPECIAL LIMITED EDITIONAdd to Collection
    - .308 Win. cal., 24 in. barrel, re-creation of the 1966 Model 700 M40 to the U.S.M.C. specification of 1966, wood stock, endorsed and authenticated by the U.S. Marine Corps Scout/Sniper Association. 1,000 mfg. 2006-2007.
    View Historic Prices
    Grading 100% 98% 95% 90% 80% 70% 60%
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    what's so funny about peace love and understanding?

  38. #37
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    Spot on...I couldn't get enough from him ...forgetting most of what he has bought over the years...thank a lot friend. ><> Dan

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssniper View Post
    MJMD, Here are a couple pictures of one on my ART collection, looks just like yours.
    Close SS. Probably very similar variants. Mine has 3x9 on the left side of the horizontal turret but it is missing the art ll where yours has just a serial listed.The rings are a bit different as is stippling on the eyepiece . Mine has horizontal lines like a realist on the eyepiece that appear to be absent on your version. The turret caps are different too. Will take some more photos to compare. I am guessing a early art 2 version ? in a leatherwood weaver mount. Something between art1 and art 2. Or worse a computer painted gray? The source said it was Realist. Who made the art 2's for Jim? Then there is the cams.


    First there were the Redfield 3x9's, (1" tube then version 2 with no 1" tube), some commercials appear here and there, then the early art tel's also made by Redfield ? , then the Realists ? Then? What is the correct sequence
    Last edited by mjmd; 03-28-2017 at 08:57 AM.

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