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Whitworth/Parker Hale/Euroarms questions

5K views 15 replies 7 participants last post by  DK PHILLIPS In Memoriam 
#1 ·
Thought I would start a new thread on this. I recently picked up a Parker Hale marked, but probably Euroarms whitworth. I am not yet set up for casting, so I bought some pre cast .451 bullets on line, that were described as "tin & lead bullets 530 grain. Med Hardness of 8/9". Today was the first time I had a chance to shoot the gun. Not too impressed, but I think there may be a number of factors to mitigate the less than stellar groups at 50 yards. Not complaining about the bullets, they may be fine, but just mentioned for info purposes. Your comments on the below are respectfully requested:

1. Since I am not shooting a hexagonal bullet, should I be going for pure lead when i start casting? I dug a few bullets out of the back stop, and they were fairly messed up, but I did not see a large hexagonal shape at the base. A little swaging, but not pronounced. I was only shooting 60 grains 2F. I am thinking pure lead and up the charge to swage the bullet to hex better? FYI, there was no keyholing.

2. I have heard stories of poor bedding practices from Euroarms. I have not taken the barrel out of this one yet, so I will see. I have an older Euroarms Springfield 1855 rifle musket that I did take the barrel out of, and there were 3 gobbs of plastic in the barrel channel with large gaps between stock and barrel between the gobbs of plastic. That one did not group well either, and I will definitely be glass bedding that. With that kind of bedding, the barrel has to be whipping a bit.

3. The Whitworth I have has the hooded from sight and a vernier tang sight. The "long range" sight had been removed. I had forgotten, from my skirmishing days, how straight the enfield style stock is. I would like to get a higher front sight so I can bring my fat cheek up higher on the stock. Do any of you know where I can locate a higher front sight that would approximate something like the original? And, do you know the dovetail size?

4. Definitely need to get a cleaning rod/jag/loading rod setup that is peculiar to this rifle. Any recommendations?

5. Do any of you find that a loading drop tube aids accuracy? I am thinking perhaps making sure all the powder gets into the reduced size patent breech may help consistency.

6. Lastly, this Whitworth came with the vernier rear tang sight, but not the original long range rear sight mounted on the barrel. The original owner took that off and could not locate it. It has two mounting holes into the barrel. Do any of you have one of those? If so, I would like to purchase. I suppose the same long range rear sight for Euroarms rifle muskets would fit? I know the Parker Hales were soldered on, as the originals. But the Euroarms are screw mounted. LET ME KNOW IF YOU HAVE ONE FOR SALE.


Thanks all!
 
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#2 ·
Thought I would start a new thread on this. I recently picked up a Parker Hale marked, but probably Euroarms whitworth. I am not yet set up for casting, so I bought some pre cast .451 bullets on line, that were described as "tin & lead bullets 530 grain. Med Hardness of 8/9". Today was the first time I had a chance to shoot the gun. Not too impressed, but I think there may be a number of factors to mitigate the less than stellar groups at 50 yards. Not complaining about the bullets, they may be fine, but just mentioned for info purposes. Your comments on the below are respectfully requested:

ds1. Since I am not shooting a hexagonal bullet, should I be going for pure lead when i start casting? I dug a few bullets out of the back stop, and they were fairly messed up, but I did not see a large hexagonal shape at the base. A little swaging, but not pronounced. I was only shooting 60 grains 2F. I am thinking pure lead and up the charge to swage the bullet to hex better? FYI, there was no keyholing.

I shoot the 535gr Lyman .451 SOFT LEAD bullet over 90gr of FFg and two shiny cardboard wads, loading the bullet down with 40 pounds pressure. No laffin', but I use a set of bathroom scales. Swab the bore dry, load the charge, then wad, then bullet. Then dry-patch the bore and shoot. IF you have a genuine P-H rifle, then it comes with the correct cylindrical mould AND a hexagonal wad-cutter. Trust me, it goes totally hexagonal, and I shoot out to 1200 yards. My hundred yard groups of five shots can be covered with a 1" patch - with a little bit peeking out.

Joe and Steve Polisar of Albuquerque NM supply swaged 500gr bullets of astounding quality - some paper-patch them, others don't.

2. I have heard stories of poor bedding practices from Euroarms. I have not taken the barrel out of this one yet, so I will see. I have an older Euroarms Springfield 1855 rifle musket that I did take the barrel out of, and there were 3 gobbs of plastic in the barrel channel with large gaps between stock and barrel between the gobbs of plastic. That one did not group well either, and I will definitely be glass bedding that. With that kind of bedding, the barrel has to be whipping a bit.

I can't offer any advice - but the P-H version often needs a very slight ridge scraping away from the barrel channel. Mine, serial #888, didn't.


3. The Whitworth I have has the hooded from sight and a vernier tang sight. The "long range" sight had been removed. I had forgotten, from my skirmishing days, how straight the enfield style stock is. I would like to get a higher front sight so I can bring my fat cheek up higher on the stock. Do any of you know where I can locate a higher front sight that would approximate something like the original? And, do you know the dovetail size?

4. Definitely need to get a cleaning rod/jag/loading rod setup that is peculiar to this rifle. Any recommendations?

The genuine Whitworth hexagonal scraper is no longer made by anybody - I paid about $300 for mine back in 1988. You'll be lucky indeed to find one.

5. Do any of you find that a loading drop tube aids accuracy? I am thinking perhaps making sure all the powder gets into the reduced size patent breech may help consistency.

I do.


6. Lastly, this Whitworth came with the vernier rear tang sight, but not the original long range rear sight mounted on the barrel. The original owner took that off and could not locate it. It has two mounting holes into the barrel. Do any of you have one of those? If so, I would like to purchase. I suppose the same long range rear sight for Euroarms rifle muskets would fit? I know the Parker Hales were soldered on, as the originals. But the Euroarms are screw mounted. LET ME KNOW IF YOU HAVE ONE FOR SALE.

Thanks all!


tac
 
#5 ·
loading the bullet down with 40 pounds pressure. No laffin', but I use a set of bathroom scales.
Please 'splain that bathroom scale trick! Thanks!
 
#3 ·
I have a Euroarms whitworth too. I a cast my own bullets from a pedersoli ,451 / 520grs mould in pure lead. Had the rifle on the range yesterday, it groups within 2" at 100 m. when shot from a bench. Like said i the other thread, 70grs swiss no. 3 (2F) through a funnel, seat a vaxed cardboard with a cleaning rod with a damp patch, then seat the bullet with the rod with the damp patch, the rifle is loaded and clean, ready to shoot. - and it makes hexagon holes.
Theese are compression rifles, they need to be able to compress the bullet , therefore soft lead - fast powder

For replacement sight , try Pedersoli, you can deal with them directly. The sight is a "normal" type, with side adjustable blade


(http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sch...-1-cavity--long-bullet-for-muzzleloading.html)

Peter Dyson has some parts https://www.peterdyson.co.uk/cgi-bi...arch.x=14&search.y=4&search=ACTION&PR=-1&TB=A

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/guns-rifles.asp/l_en/idl_3/partenza_0/accessories/accessories.html
 
#4 ·
... I bought some pre cast .451 bullets on line, that were described as "tin & lead bullets 530 grain. Med Hardness of 8/9". Today was the first time I had a chance to shoot the gun. Not too impressed, but I think there may be a number of factors to mitigate the less than stellar groups at 50 yards.

3. The Whitworth I have has the hooded from sight and a vernier tang sight. The "long range" sight had been removed. I had forgotten, from my skirmishing days, how straight the enfield style stock is. I would like to get a higher front sight so I can bring my fat cheek up higher on the stock. Do any of you know where I can locate a higher front sight that would approximate something like the original? And, do you know the dovetail size?

5. Do any of you find that a loading drop tube aids accuracy? I am thinking perhaps making sure all the powder gets into the reduced size patent breech may help consistency.

Thanks all!
Only can remark on a few of your statements and questions:
1) I also bought the same bullet from probably that same vendor, as your description is exact, and found them to be too hard to obdurate well in my Henry-rifled PH Volunteer, a similar rifle to yours. Throw them away, use pure lead for best results. I use a Lyman 451114 in my Volunteer, but iirc, the Lyman 457112 is one recommended for the WW.

3) Lyman makes target (globe) front sights for muzzleloaders, in various heights, with interchangeable inserts. Lyman even makes one with a European dovetail. Check with them. I wouldn't worry too much about shooting with the original issue sights, as the vernier and globe will give you stellar results.

5)A drop tube is very useful in loading this type of target rifle. It prevents much of the previous shot's residue from being rammed back into the patent breech. After firing, I load a fresh charge with the drop tube, seat a wad on the powder, wipe the bore with a damp patch followed by a dry patch, then seat the bullet with firm pressure. Don't know what poundage I am using, but would be interested in the mechanics of using that bathroom scale, btw.

Finally, if you want a replacement to the original rear sight, contact S&S Firearms, or Lodgewood, as both sell excellent quality machined copies of the original Enfield 3 band and 2 band sights, but not the version with interchangable rear sight blades.
 
#6 ·
TOO much work. Remember years ago somebody was sellng a "Kadoodie" or Kaboodle" I forget the name, it was a tool for pushing down on a load the same poundage every time. I won this thin in an auction and used it a short time. Never made a durn bit of difference from regular loaded accuracy. Wish I had it back you could have it but I gave it away years ago. Sorry.
Had my WW out yesterday (finally found a tiny "Made in Italy" on the triggerguard) using my hex bullets and 80 grs. 2ff. 2 moa is the best so far but with the sights it has on it, I aint beating that. It needs a good Vernier and aperture front. Would LOVE to have a scope on it gotta work on that.
 
#9 ·
Thanks for all the responses on this post. Haven't had a chance to go out with the whitworth again till yesterday. Prior to that I mounted a high Lyman globe front sight in order to raise my fat cheek a bit from the stock and that helped a lot with the vernier sight on the back. I also obtained some cast bullets in pure lead (supposedly) and tried them out. Not a very stellar performance yet. I still need to work on cleaning between shots better. Did not do a wad yet, but will try that soon. I also finally got my casting set up and cast some pure lead bullets of my own that I will try out this week. Muzzleloading is a labor of love, but the Whitworth adds a dimension to it. I havent yet bedded the gun, but that is coming soon as well.

A new question; I got a bug to perhaps mount a scope on the Whitworth like some of the originals had. Perhaps modify an older style scope to make it look a bit like an original. Any of you every tried that?

The saga continues........
 
#10 · (Edited)
I think there are possibly period replicas of that Davidson-style scope for sale, and there seem to be enough photos available of scoped Whitworths to be able to replicate that mount. Good luck~! Original scoped WW's are in the $100K+ range.
 
#12 ·
Hi all
my whitworth was special order with presentation wood from Parker Hale SN under 250 and came with the complete kit including Lyman cylindrical mould I shoot 90 gr 3fg Goex a card and a grease soaked wad it shoots to sights @ 300 yds. and after digging a spent pure lead bullet out of soft damp sand found a perfect mushroom with a perfect hex base a beautiful rifle. cheers Ian.
 
#13 ·
Thought I would start a new thread on this. I recently picked up a Parker Hale marked, but probably Euroarms whitworth. I am not yet set up for casting, so I bought some pre cast .451 bullets on line, that were described as "tin & lead bullets 530 grain. Med Hardness of 8/9". Today was the first time I had a chance to shoot the gun. Not too impressed, but I think there may be a number of factors to mitigate the less than stellar groups at 50 yards. Not complaining about the bullets, they may be fine, but just mentioned for info purposes. Your comments on the below are respectfully requested:

1. Since I am not shooting a hexagonal bullet, should I be going for pure lead when i start casting? I dug a few bullets out of the back stop, and they were fairly messed up, but I did not see a large hexagonal shape at the base. A little swaging, but not pronounced. I was only shooting 60 grains 2F. I am thinking pure lead and up the charge to swage the bullet to hex better? FYI, there was no keyholing.

2. I have heard stories of poor bedding practices from Euroarms. I have not taken the barrel out of this one yet, so I will see. I have an older Euroarms Springfield 1855 rifle musket that I did take the barrel out of, and there were 3 gobbs of plastic in the barrel channel with large gaps between stock and barrel between the gobbs of plastic. That one did not group well either, and I will definitely be glass bedding that. With that kind of bedding, the barrel has to be whipping a bit.

3. The Whitworth I have has the hooded from sight and a vernier tang sight. The "long range" sight had been removed. I had forgotten, from my skirmishing days, how straight the enfield style stock is. I would like to get a higher front sight so I can bring my fat cheek up higher on the stock. Do any of you know where I can locate a higher front sight that would approximate something like the original? And, do you know the dovetail size?

4. Definitely need to get a cleaning rod/jag/loading rod setup that is peculiar to this rifle. Any recommendations?

5. Do any of you find that a loading drop tube aids accuracy? I am thinking perhaps making sure all the powder gets into the reduced size patent breech may help consistency.

6. Lastly, this Whitworth came with the vernier rear tang sight, but not the original long range rear sight mounted on the barrel. The original owner took that off and could not locate it. It has two mounting holes into the barrel. Do any of you have one of those? If so, I would like to purchase. I suppose the same long range rear sight for Euroarms rifle muskets would fit? I know the Parker Hales were soldered on, as the originals. But the Euroarms are screw mounted. LET ME KNOW IF YOU HAVE ONE FOR SALE.


Thanks all!
found a parker hale new.. at a shop for sale last week...
 
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#16 ·
kurtzbmw@gmail,com N.G.T. "niceguns" Kurt Snyder 304-922-0103 hes on face book. the guns are not!
..personal collection he's helping the older lady...
.tell him school teacher sent you...call after 4:30 He's little slow on internet, e mails! i don't carry cell phones so no photos..i'd half to take I pad out on the road and likely<><dan
 
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