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1891 Argentine: Spanish-American War, Crestless G-Prefix

22K views 140 replies 24 participants last post by  JoeACTM 
#1 · (Edited)
Lightning strikes again.

To my knowledge, the following is only the second recorded G-prefix from the 0-4,999 lot which Loewe Berlin diverted from the Model 1891 Argentine Infantry Rifle production, and sold to Spain (built after late May, June 1893, and delivered between October 1893 and June 1894). The rifles were made without the crest.

The other one is also in my vault, and found in the following link:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?408910-Argentine-M91-Showing-Its-Age


Many pics in the next post of Spanish-American War capture #2. It has heavy patina, all original matching numbers (stock number VERY faint), rare early rear sight, and missing the cleaning rod and striker from the bolt.

Enjoy, and thanks for looking.
 
#3 · (Edited)
From the appendix of Robert W.D. Ball's Military Mauser Rifles of the World.

From p.436 APPENDIX, Spanish Model 1891-1893 Mausers:

4. M1891 Long Rifle
ex-Argentina
(ARMY)
7.65 m/m

Collin Webster reports that in October 1893, Spain purchased 5,000-10,000 long rifles from Argentina which (were) in storage at the Loewe factory in Berlin. At that, Spain needed to quickly arm troops deploying to Africa to put down a rebellion in the region of... the Spanish Protectorate of Morocco. After the crisis was over in March, 1894, all Argentine rifles were sent to Cuba in June, 1894. In 1898, a number were captured in the surrender of Santiago de Cuba and returned to Springfield Armory, Massachusetts where they were auctioned off to the public on January 5, 1899. At the conclusion of the auction, 2,047 Argentine pattern rifles were still unsold. These were later acquired by Bannerman... Argentine M1891 Rifles used by Spain will have the pre-1910 sights for round nose munitions (same slide leaf as the German M.1888 Commission Rifle), the early extractor, short handguard, and a magazine without the large locking screw. There is one report that Spanish purchased M1891s were made with blank receivers without the Argentine National Crest, but this cannot be validated at this time.

I believe we can now validate Colin Webster's report. :)
 
#6 ·
There has to be more of them out there somewhere. I managed to find a Spanish M1891 Carbine (SAW capture) on Gunbroker in August 2012.
 
#8 · (Edited)
GREAT rifles.

I let one of these slip through my fingers many years ago. I lost it partly because I was cheap and partly because I was almost broke. I had just started collecting Mausers in a serious way. I carried all my books in the trunk for reference at shows. There were several shows one Sat. and I hit a small show in S.E. Pa. before heading for a big show in Harrisburg, Pa.

(Remember this was long before Colin's book and before Bob's 2nd edition of MMRoftW).

Back to the show. I already bought a nice matching 90%+ 95 Chilean for $100 and had $105 left and another show to go to. I found this not great 91 Argentine for $125 which was too much for it's condition(with due respect it was better than this example) but I noticed the old style rear sight so I picked it up. NO CREST and didn't look like it ever had one. The guy let me take it outside in natural light and sure enough, no crest.

I hit my books and decided it was strange enough to grab so I went back and offered $100 which was refused. Long story short, I looked at my references again and thought maybe it was a "Spanish Purchase" based only on the sights. The only reference I recall to the Spanish Purchase 91's were in "Rifles of the World" by Walter and that little red Military rifle book by I think Donald Webster.
By this time I decided I better buy it so I found a friend and borrowed $25, went back and it was GONE/sold.

The rest of the story. A week later I finally decided to buy the 2nd edition of "Rifles of the World" for $20. I had resisted spending the $20 for several months. Guess what. In the 2nd edition for the first time it referenced that the Spanish Purchase M1891 Argentines were made w/o crest. If I had that reference before I would have locked my hand on the rifle until someone came by I could have borrowed 20 bucks from.

I have beat myself up over this loss more than any other rifle I missed. BTW, I didn't note the ser# which I also beat myself up over.


Again, a very lucky find/finds


Jack
 
#9 ·
Nice one, some day I hope I get lucky. I'm looking for that & the M91 carbine to go with my unmolested 1894 dated Spanish Model 1893 rifle. Thanks for showing us what one looks like. What's the number on your other one?
Thanks for sharing
Dan in Texas
 
#14 ·
Very cool. I sure hope I didn't pass over one of these in the past, thinking it was just a well-worn scrubbed 1891.
As mman pointed out in the passage about his near miss, he noticed the early style rear sight. So the lack of crest and condition aside, the rear sight style is the prominent feature.

I was just in the right place at the right time when I bought my first example, but I spotted the vertical slider tab on the second one from 20 feet away. I knew it was coming home with me, immediately.


Congratulations to the 2nd find! This confirms that they were made without crest.
And now we all have to look if there's an Argy, G-series 0000-4999 in our collection. This sounds somehow like the ZAR Chile Mauser: if your Chile M95 has a distinctive serial # , it's suddenly something special (= a Boer war rifle). Now, the same situation with the Argy M91 (= a SAW rifle).

Chris
As long time Houston collector, Paul Janke told me once "One's good but two's better". Yep, I think I hear a rustl'n & a scrambl'n to check out Model 91 rifle. The more I learn, the more I think that I know, the flatter my wallet gets.
Best Regards
Dan in Texas

Was hoping to see another one or two to come out of hiding. Still quite possible.

With the contributions from Gunboards members in this and the first thread, and through my own study of the great research by Webster, I believe it is possible that some of these original configuration Argentines could surface in the F 5,000-9,999 serial series, as well.

So, keep an eye out for a late F-block.
 
#12 ·
Congratulations to the 2nd find! This confirms that they were made without crest.
And now we all have to look if there's an Argy, G-series 0000-4999 in our collection. This sounds somehow like the ZAR Chile Mauser: if your Chile M95 has a distinctive serial # , it's suddenly something special (= a Boer war rifle). Now, the same situation with the Argy M91 (= a SAW rifle).

Chris
 
#13 ·
As long time Houston collector, Paul Janke told me once "One's good but two's better". Yep, I think I hear a rustl'n & a scrambl'n to check out Model 91 rifle. The more I learn, the more I think that I know, the flatter my wallet gets.
Best Regards
Dan in Texas
 
#16 ·
Got the "database" error and photos went into cyberspace...

Trying again to post photos of F 7239
 

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#17 ·
Nope... tried two more times. Gunboards won't take my photos today. Maybe they will one day get the software fixed. If anyone wants to see the photos, let me know and I will try again later to post them.
 
#21 ·
@ tojak:
up to now, everything looks ok:
- old style rear sight
- matching stock no.

On the other side, the series # fonts on your rifle (especially the 3, 7 9) are totally different from my samples. My 3 Argy M91 have more prosaic font, less serifes.
My samples: Engineers Carbine A series 1895 (all matching , w crest); Argy S series 1899 (matching stock, crest scrubbed); Peru S series 1899 (w crest)


This does not mean that your rifle has a fault. On the contrary, it could indicate that your rifle is somehow different (= a Spanish make!)


@ Abulg1972:
please have a close look to your samples. You have a lot of experience in serial fonts on he Argy M91.

hope this is helpful,
Chris
 
#23 ·
Old photos I already had on the computer... May not show enough detail to help you. Can take others, (close-ups) in a few days if you need them, but just had my knee replaced and not up to dragging the rifle out of the safe for photos quite yet.

Don't know if slider is early or late... Will will leave that up to you experts.
 

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#25 ·
Yes... She is still a fine old rifle and a great shooter.

Had one of these when I was a kid... Bought at Monkey Wards for $16.99. But, over the years let it get away. Found this one at an "estate" sale, and it is in virtually new condition. Love to take it to the range, especially at night: Loud report and big "fireball" will really draw a crowd.

I know you guys are real collectors, so will just mention that I also have '91 Argys: E 3199 and M 6578, all matching including cleaning rods, all original other than scrubbed crest. Of course, a couple of weeks after finding F 7239, found S 9654 which is also the Monkey Wards "sporterized" version and is likewise in virtually new condition... Naturally, I had to have it too.

I appreciate you guys taking the time to check out F 7239...
 
#29 ·
I decided to revive this thread to keep the new information related to the third instance of the G-Series rifles linked to the original discussion.

Recently, I was able to acquire the younger sibling of martin08's two rifles. His rifles are in the first half of the G-series, mine is in the last 100. However, the three rifles seem to be identical down to the most obscure details. Here is a summary, including what we have discovered this month.'

These rifles are not "crest-less" as in the case of never having had a crest. Careful analysis on my receiver using a straight edge to detect a gap where grinding had occurred led to a similar discovery on martin's two rifles. However, the grinding seems very professionally done and it seems that the finish was restored at the time of grinding. We suspect that this grinding was done at the Loewe factory.

We compared our stocks for signs of Argentinian acceptance stamps and all three show faint remnants of the normal stock markings. Martin said that he had been told that the rifles diverted to Spain were taken from stock already accepted and packaged, so the presence of these markings is consistent.

When I took my rifle apart for cleaning, I noticed that the hand guard was held on by what appears to be brass wire rather than copper wire. I asked martin to check and his two rifles also have yellow wire.

I also noticed that my barrel had the MB test firing proof on the top, but not the linked ovals. The underside of the barrel had the buckle inspection mark that Collin Webster specified in his book. The two martin rifles also share this characteristic, along with the star on the bolt handle and the expected G-series extractor and magazine lock features.

My rifle appears to be in original untouched condition, but with quite a bit of wear on the exterior surfaces. All of the serial numbers match, including the last two digits of the serial number on the rear sight, and surprisingly, on the front barrel band and inside the trigger guard. Martin's rifles also match in all these places.

Bagiman and Martin08 were under the impression that the 10,000 rifles diverted to Spain were from the second half of the F-series and the first half of the G-series. My G9xxx rifle would seem to fall outside of this range. However, it is clearly of the same type as martin's two.

I have searched through various Internet sources and have been able to come up with a small list of G-series rifles. From the G0001-G4999 set, I have found five rifles with newer features (2 crested and 3 scrubbed) that seem to have come to the USA via the normal process. I have found three rifles from the G5000-G9999 set with newer features (2 crested and 1 scrubbed, one of the crested ones still in Argentina). The five from the first half of the G-series that were upgraded and imported normally would seem to prove that Loewe did not just take all of G0000-G4999 and ship them to Spain. My guess is that they went to their warehouse and grabbed random crates. This would mean that serial numbers would be blocked into groups the size of a shipping crate.

In any case, we feel that this new information and the discovery that the receivers actually had crests removed does not negatively affect the theory that these rifles were part of the order that was diverted to Spain between October 1893 and June 1894.
 
#34 ·
Thanks for digging out that valuable info.

Here is one of the Argentine carbines that went to Spain (a SAW capture).
 

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#32 ·
There WAS bluing there.

It has been polished/cleaned up with emory paper or crocus cloth.

It was probably a long time ago, but the signs are there.

Also, look at the third picture of the two side by side. If you look at the receiver ring of the rifle with the barrel in the white, you will see radial marks. They are likely very smooth to the touch, but if you use the tip of your pinky finger nail you will feel slight indentations. If you take a micrometer and measure the ring diameter compared to another 1891 in good condition, I would be curious what you find.
 
#35 ·
Mote Spanish M1891 Carbine
 

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#36 ·
Bill,

Thanks for the carbine pics, but I am confused. I can see that it looks like an 1891 Argentine Cavalry Carbine and even has the saddle ring, but none of the markings are Argentine. I remember reading that there were 10,000 rifles and 5,000 carbines involved with Spain. The rifles came from already inspected stock. Were the carbines some sort of resource diversion and made for Spain without Argentine markings rather than just taking already packed carbines from the Argentinian order?
 
#37 ·
Apparently the carbines were at an early point of manufacture where the Argentine crest had not yet been stamped, so the 1894 dated Spanish crest was stamped on them. The inspection markings seem to be Spanish and Turkish (surplus M1890 parts). I suspect the rifles were shipped first and the carbines later, which is supported by the 1894 dated Spanish carbine crest. Webster in Argentine Mauser Rifles 1871-1959 page 124 only talks about 10,000 M1891 rifles being sold to Spain in October 1893 with 5,000 delivered immediately, all being later sent to Cuba because of the non standard caliber. He also said 872 rifles and 84 carbines listed as 7.65mm were sold in the US as SAW captures. My thought is it may be that 5,000 rifles and 5.000 carbines were sold to Spain.

John Wall has more information in his table on page 436 of Mauser Military Rifles of the World, 5th Edition. There was an auction at Springfield Armory in January 1889 after which 2,047 Argentine pattern rifles were unsold. They were purchased by Bannerman's. My thought is that they may have been sold to South America by Bannerman's. He says that at the end of the auction 154 Argentine pattern carbines remained and were offered mail order by the US Army for $8.25 each. From collectors, observed carbine serial numbers were all in the 3,000 - 4,000 range with the highest confirmed number 4972. My s/n is 2257.

Both Webster and Wall were relying on Springfield Armory sales records but they do not seem to agree with each other as to quantities.

It does not appear that many SAW capture 7.65 Spanish M1891 rifles and carbines survived in the US.
 
#38 ·
It does not appear that many SAW capture 7.65 Spanish M1891 rifles and carbines survived in the US.
I think we are very lucky to have four examples appearing in this thread.

Joe had brought up an interesting avenue to investigate, regarding the barrel proofing or inspection. I don't have a later import, so I have no linked oval stamp on mine. Can anyone show a pic of this stamp? And can the meaning of this stamp be verified?
 
#39 ·
I opened a thread a few weeks ago on the barrel markings, with one picture and bagiman gave a link to a thread with some more pictures.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?724930-1891-Argentine-Rifle-Barrel-Markings

What I have found so far is that there is the standard test firing proof that looks like an MB. When that is not present, there is either a AG-shield or, CC-shield (only three or for pictures found plus the one I own).

The ovals seem to be some sort of inspection mark, and from my limited information on the underside of barrels, seem to be mutually exclusive with the buckle inspection mark on the underside of the barrel. My CC-shield and MB + ovals both have no buckle mark. The three G-series rifles all have MB and buckle mark with no ovals.

I have seen pictures of MB alone, MB plus ovals, AG-shield alone, AG-shield with ovals (one carbine) and CC-shield alone.
 
#40 · (Edited)
I just happened to be looking through the book FN Mauser Rifles by Anthony Vanderlinden and I noticed on page 254 a reprint of a 1902 Bannerman catalog page that offered for sale Spanish-American War capture rifles that had been purchased from the Army.

There is a picture of a 7.65 mm Mauser Rifle that appears to be an 1891. It is very hard to see, but I think I can make out the cylinder on the right side of the original type rear sight. There is also a picture of the Mauser cartridge, also for sale, that seems to me to be the round nose bullet.

They offer 1000 rifles "complete with sights and rods", another 1000 rifles that included the bayonet and 100 carbines. As an aside, they also offered 100 7.65 Turkish rifles.

[edit] I guess I was not thinking clearly. This ad was from 1902, so, of course, the rear sight and cartridge would have been the round nose bullet type.

[edit] I just saw that you had the page from the ad in a thread last summer. Oh well. Late to the party agaiin.
 
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