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Thread: Somewhat OT - older German 22

  1. #1

    Default Somewhat OT - older German 22

    I sort of collect training rifles but really don't see all that many to buy. Every once in a while I get weak and buy a 22 that is not a trainer. I picked this up at a small show last weekend. To my eye it is beautiful. I have attached some photos.

    The gun is a falling block target rifle. It has some light engraving and a beautiful dark blue like the older S&Ws had. The rifling is strong and last 3 or 4 inches of the approximately 28" hex barrel is smooth (a form of false muzzle?). The rear sight can move back and forth on a rail. The front sight insert can easily be changed. The rifle weighs 10-11 pounds. All I have know at this time is that the gun was made by Friedrich Langenhan of Zella Mehlis Germany. The "FLZ" trade mark appears on the butt plate and the falling block.

    Can anyone give me an idea of when this gun was made? I wonder what the little adjustment stud behind the falling block is for (trigger pull maybe)? Were these made up for some special type of European match shooting or is it just a general target rifle? Langenhan is mentioned as one of the premier gunmakers of Zella Mehlis, but and internet search did not reveal much else about him. Finally I wonder what the value of something like this is? Let me down easy, I always pay too much. Any input would be appreciated.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails G221.JPG   G222.JPG   G223.JPG   G224.JPG   G225.JPG   G226.JPG  

    Last edited by SCWood; 02-13-2010 at 06:59 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
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    582

    Default

    I found this on a site:

    1594 - 22 Cal Single Shot Rifle Identification
    11/7/98
    Joe A
    Maker Model Caliber Barrel Length Finish Serial Number
    Unknown Unknown 22 Long Rifle 28 7/16 Unknown 62XX

    I have a Single Shot rifle that was brought back to the US by a WW II soldier that I have never been able to identify (nor anyone at NRA). The following is what I Do know:

    Action: Falling block similar to a Sharps, true hot water blued, some engraving not high quality, base for detachable adjustable aperture sight is integral on tang, trigger is adjustable for let-off on top of tang. Stock is two piece Schutezen style. It has a four digit serial number 62XX.

    Barrel: Length 28 7/16, octagonal, .730" across flats, top flat is matted full length and 10" of rear of top flat is undercut to form a rail for some type of open (Anshultz style?) sight. Front sight is dovetailed fore and aft and quick removable.

    Markings: Left side of falling block is marked with a circle divided into 3 sections with a single letter in each section (letters F L and Z ). The divided circle is circled by the words EINGETR MARKE

    Receiver is marked with German Nitro proof marks.

    Bottom of barrel is marked just ahead of the forarm:

    FR LANGENHAN, ZELLA-MEHLIS.

    Rifle is in excellent shape all original, with all sights and a trigger/sight adjusting tool. There is no sight for rail. Can you any provide history about it? I thought Langenhan was mostly noted for making pistols. Could he have also produced rifles? I have had it since the early 50's and occasionally shoot it being very careful. Any info or history would be greatly appreciated.

    Answer:
    Joe- Sorry we cannot help much on this one. German single shot target rifles of the pre-WW2 period were usually very high quality, and highly individualized. Today everyone in the world goes out and gets an Anschutz except for a handful of folks who choose another brand for mystical reasons or superstitions. The German rifles were largely handmade or made in very small numbers by talented gunsmiths. The falling block "system Ayedt" action was quite popular, but I do not know much about them. Like many other high quality German arms, most of these were brought to the US by returning troops after WW2, often without sights or accessories. There is no written information on these that I know of except possibly some brief mention in old catalogs (Stoegers, ALFA, etc). Nor is there much information readily available on the gunsmiths. You already know as much as we do on this one. John Spangler

    I hope this helps a bit. Nice looking rifle for sure.

  3. #3

    Default German 22

    Gaweidert,

    Thank you for your reply! I found one of these rifles that went through a Scotarms auction in England in 2006. They don't appear to post estimates or realized prices, however.

    The proof marks would have me guessing this is a 1930s vintage gun. I've attaced a couple of better photos of some of the markings. Mine just has the "F.L." and "F.L.Z.". It does not have Langenhan's name spelled out anywhere that I have found.

    I envy this fellow with his sights and adjustment tool. Mine is probably a 95% gun. The only bad part is the horn butt plate. Those horn eating bugs (? not sure what kind they are, but have seen them attack horn knife handles before) have worked out on the butt plate some. Mine is also a four digit number 57XX.

    Have some references to Langenhan's pistols (he apparently only made 3 or 4 models), but nothing on any long guns he may have produced.

    This is such a high quality piece (reminds me of Ferlach area weapons), that I will probably keep it. I have some 513Ts, 44USs, a 40X, and an Anschutz. This kind of fits in with the evolution of the target rifle. There's some justification for buying something I really didn't need.

    Thank again for your reply!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    2

    Default FLZ single shot .22

    Hi; I recently traded for one of these Franz Langenhan falling block 22s. It has good metal work and a perfect bore, but either has been re-stocked or somebody REALLY messed up the original stock. There is no buttplate on the stock. It also is missing the sights, other than the base for the front sight.
    I would really appreciate close-up pictures of the sights, since I'm sure I'll have to build new ones for the rifle, including the diopter sight that mounts in the top tang. If anybody happens to have any or all of the sights, I'd be interested in buying them, but I suspect that's a forlorn hope.
    I'd also like to see some good pictures of what the stock looked like, if anyone has them. I have not yet disassembled the action, but when I do, I'll be happy to provide information on what the adjustment screw behind the falling block is for (I suspect it's trigger pull adjustment). My rifle is not dated, but it uses the standard "B" "U" "G" proofing of the Weimar Republic, as used between the wars in Germany. No name is used, it just says "F.L. Kleinkaliber Buchse" on a barrel flat, then a space, then "22 long rifle".
    I would appreciate any info on this little project gun. Good shooting!
    Last edited by oldtoolsguy; 05-23-2009 at 02:15 PM. Reason: to correct spelling

  5. #5
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    Default

    What a beautiful piece, dont know how much you paid, but it was worth it...enjoy !!

  6. #6
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    Sep 2009
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    Default 22 cal long rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by SCWood View Post
    Gaweidert,

    Thank you for your reply! I found one of these rifles that went through a Scotarms auction in England in 2006. They don't appear to post estimates or realized prices, however.

    The proof marks would have me guessing this is a 1930s vintage gun. I've attaced a couple of better photos of some of the markings. Mine just has the "F.L." and "F.L.Z.". It does not have Langenhan's name spelled out anywhere that I have found.

    I envy this fellow with his sights and adjustment tool. Mine is probably a 95% gun. The only bad part is the horn butt plate. Those horn eating bugs (? not sure what kind they are, but have seen them attack horn knife handles before) have worked out on the butt plate some. Mine is also a four digit number 57XX.

    Have some references to Langenhan's pistols (he apparently only made 3 or 4 models), but nothing on any long guns he may have produced.

    This is such a high quality piece (reminds me of Ferlach area weapons), that I will probably keep it. I have some 513Ts, 44USs, a 40X, and an Anschutz. This kind of fits in with the evolution of the target rifle. There's some justification for buying something I really didn't need.

    Thank again for your reply!
    I also have the same rifle. It is in excellant condition and has the case. I do not have the tool, nor tang sight which fits in square on top of the stock. They were custom made, pre war. Mine was aquired in Salberg Austria.

  7. #7
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    Sep 2009
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    2

    Default 22 cal long rifle

    I also have the same rifle. It is in excellant condition and has the case. I do not have the tool, nor tang sight which fits in square on top of the stock. They were custom made, pre war. Mine was aquired in Salberg Austria. Groups at 100 yards are very tight, appox 1 inch. If you ever get the desire to let go of yours, please do contact me any time. Enjoy

  8. #8

    Default Langenhan 22

    MybankerBob,

    Thanks for your reply. I currently am not interested in selling, but will keep you in mind if I decide to sell. I have seen a couple of these run through auctions but have never seen the realized price. There is currently one on an aucton site that has a metal butt plate. It is listed as a F.L. Kleinkaliberbuchse. My butt plate looks right and overall my gun is probably 95% + . I'd be curious to know if yours has a metal or horn butt plate. Would also like to see a picture of the case. Is the case Langenhan marked? I'm still hoping to find the rear sight set someday, and I might win the lottery. I guess you have to buy lottery tickets to win.

    SC Wood

  9. #9
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    Southwest Ohio
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    Default

    There is a gentleman in Delphos,Ohio that reproduces these tang sights. I will see him this weekend and see if he makes them for .22 caliber rifles.
    Last edited by MK111; 10-06-2009 at 10:07 AM.

  10. #10
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    By accident I checked this Forum earlier today. Normally I hang out on the 98k and Smoke Pole Forums, and my primary interests lie with original and contemporary American flintlocks of the 1750ish-1825ish period. My .22 collection is restricted to the little Winchester '06 and Marlin 39A that I grew up with, and the Win. Mod 52 I bought some years ago simply because I wanted a Mod 52!

    I would like to ask this question of mybankerbob and oldtoolsguy: Do the pieces you own have the same engraving on the receiver and falling block as the one owned by SCWood? Please comment on this! Many Thanks, woodsrunner

  11. #11
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    Dec 1969
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    Southwest Ohio
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    Default

    I talked to Gary in Delphos,Ohio this weekend and he does make period correct tang sights for these rifles. PM me for his information as he needs to talk to you by phone to figure out exactly which model of rifle you would have.

  12. #12

    Default Langenhan engraving

    I've seen two or three of these come on auction sites in the last couple of years...They all appear to have the same engraving as my rifle. Not a lot of coverage and pretty simple engraving..but way back when ...I guess somebody had to do it by hand. One that is currently listed on an auction site has metal butt plate secured by one screw and some stock checkering. I'm guessing these were aftermarket modifications. There is more information about them in this thread than I have found anywhere else. A prewar German gun catalog would probably shed some more light on these rifles.

  13. #13
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    Feb 2010
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    As this is my first visit ,please bear with me. I also have acquired one of the 22's being discussed. It is in excellent condition except for missing butt plate. I would be happy to supply a drawing with correct dimensioning for reproduction. The rear sight is of course dovetailed for forward/lareral adjustment and has a three position aperture containing a V-notch, a Square notch and a Circular notch. The sight also has a sliding windage adjustment as well as an elevation adjustment, both of which are in incremental clicks. I would also be able to supply drawings 0f the front sight.
    My particular rifle was acquired from a school teacher who's father had passed away and left her several guns he had brought back after serving in Germany during the WW. The other gun I was able to obtain was a Browning 16 guage auto made in 1934 which I have enjoyed pheasant hunting with in Kansas on several occassions, except for the "mule" part. This gun is also in superb condition. Back to the 22, mine is serial number 5750, has a steel grip cap and the original sling swivels (as best I can determine).
    I have found one other person who has one of these 22's with the rear diopter sight. I have also been able to learn that it is called a Zwiefach-Stiegdiopter (not sure if this is 100% correct), and is available from [email protected], Phone- 707-445-8258. The last time I looked it was $325.00 plus shipping.
    As far as value, I would hesitate to sell mine at any price at this time. It is extremely accurate and ejoyable to shoot. I hope to eventually purchase the diopter sight to see what it adds to the shooting experience. I have found one other rifle for sell on an antique firearms web site which sold for $950.00 several years ago, complete with diopter, sights and case. I think this is a true reflection of value. I obtained mine and the Browning for $350.00 after originally telling the teacher what I believed the rest of her fathers collection was worth. She wanted me to have them and I paid her this amount only after inssisting she take something for them. Right place, right time.
    I also have another interesting 22 single shot of German manufacture that I have failed to find any info on at all. It is a single shot, breech folds forward over the barrel to actuate ejector and has a pull fireing pin much like some of my old Winchester 22's. It has Model 1 stamped into the top of the folding receiver above an emblem depicting what appears to be a dragons head, a giraffe neck and lions body crouched with tail forming an "S" above. This emblem is also burn/stamped into the one piece stock which seems to be nothing more than a flat board. Puzzling!!!
    Thanks for any reply. I can be contacted at [email protected] for any further info or to request a drawing and/or picture of the sights.

  14. #14
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    Oct 2008
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    Default

    I have also recently got a FL 22 lr rifle. It was sold as a Skoha Champion in Finland before WW II.

    SKOHA = from the words: Suojeluskuntain KauppaOsakeyhtiö / Handels Aktiebolag [in Swedish] = Civil Guard's Trade Company
    Oy = Ab [in Swedish] = Ltd.

    I think these rifles a basically the same rifles as Haenel KK Sport rifles. Some interesting links:

    http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/4717/
    http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Haenel_target_rifle.htm
    http://www.asenetti.com/epages/Gagar.sf/fi_FI/?ObjectPath=/Shops/Asenetti/Products/408

    My rifle has the Schuetzen buttplate and diopter. It really is a nice gun and when I get the misfire problems
    sorted out, it will see some serious target shooting…

  15. #15

    Default

    I also have one of these rifles , my rear sight is a bit different , it is one of the square tang sights that fit in the stock , and it is missing.
    the engraving is very similiar to the one posted here. anyone know where I can get the rear sight ?

  16. #16
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    Oct 2008
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    Default

    Maybe you could try this one..?

    http://www.golmatic.de/Waffen_EN/bue.../visier_en.htm

    ZENTRUM DIOPTER for classic feuerstutzen rifles - classic SUHL type - especially für AYDT rifles - double column guideway - adjustable with no-play - delivery incl. square spanner

  17. #17
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    Dec 2010
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    Default

    Hi guys,

    I´m new to this forum, happened across it while looking for some info on exactly the weapon described here.
    I do own a F.L. Kleinkaliberbuechse. Inherited it from my father, who had it from his father, so it´s in our family for about 80-90 years now.
    I love this rifle very much and I was always trying to find out something about it. This thread has more info that I´ve ever expected. Especially since I was looking for that old diopter and haven´t been able to find anything so far.

    My gun seems to be older than the one by SC wood. I do have simpler engravings and the stock is different. Butt plate is metal. The rifle is very accurate and I would never give it away, use it regularly on the range with great results.

    I very much like to exchange info here if possible in order to find out more about these rifles.

    And can anyone tell me if the ZENTRUM diopter described above really does fit ? Does anyone know the price ?

    Thanks,

    Frank

  18. #18
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    Dec 1969
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    Hunterman, the rifle you talk about in your last paragraph is an Ortgies, made in the 30's in Germany, I've got a couple, the pic shows yours on the upper part, the ,other smaller one, is also an Ortgies, in .22 but the barrel is smoothbore-They were unexpensive "garden guns"=

    I am an international Gunboards patron

  19. #19
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    Default Yes, the engraving is the same

    Quote Originally Posted by woodsrunner 38 View Post
    By accident I checked this Forum earlier today. Normally I hang out on the 98k and Smoke Pole Forums, and my primary interests lie with original and contemporary American flintlocks of the 1750ish-1825ish period. My .22 collection is restricted to the little Winchester '06 and Marlin 39A that I grew up with, and the Win. Mod 52 I bought some years ago simply because I wanted a Mod 52!

    I would like to ask this question of mybankerbob and oldtoolsguy: Do the pieces you own have the same engraving on the receiver and falling block as the one owned by SCWood? Please comment on this! Many Thanks, woodsrunner
    Sorry for not getting back any sooner. The engraving is the same on my rifle as that shown in the pictures. It's not very high quality, which is a little surprising for the earlier German guns. One happier note is that I bought a diopter sight on eBay recently that will fit the tang base nearly perfectly, but it was pricey. I still have to fab a front sight for it, as well as the spring and keeper in the front sight base. I also have to figure out what kind of buttplate I'm going to use, since the rifle had none. If anyone has a front sight for one of these, please let me know.

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