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Help valuing a Ruby type pistol

5K views 19 replies 9 participants last post by  nieuport 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi all,
I need some help valuing a Ruby type pistol.
There are no proof marks or a manufacturer name any where on the gun.

The left side of the slide is stamped 765 1914 AUTOMATIC PISTOL and directly under that is PARAMOUNT CALIBER 32.

The right side is stamped SPAIN between the grip panel and the numbers 440 are stamped under the grip panel.

It seems to be a nice tight little piece. I fired it and it functions properly.

Thanks.

Doug.



 
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#6 ·
You should remember that a "collector" item's value is pretty much determined by who's hands the item is in. This is why I only collect things with high intrinsic value like PEZ Dispensers.
:)
Hey if you're going to use three dollar words like intrinsic I'm gonna have to go back to college just to keep up!

I bought a "limited edition" collector's set of Star Trek the Next Generation PEZ dispensers at Rite Aid on clearance a few years ago. I told my wife I was going to sell it on ebay and at least double my money. Wife said I was nutz. Turns out she was right!:laugh:
"
 
#5 ·
Another sweet pistol from Espana and nickel plated too, perfect carry gun for a female.
 
#7 ·
If it is functional and shoots OK then it is worth $100 tops. As Bob said, someone chromed it and put some plastic grips on it.
Zero collector value.
If someone wants a launcher for .32 ACP bullets this is a choice.
Keep in mind that in some areas any pistol whether it works or not is worth $50-100 at a "gun buy back" program. The ones that "get guns off the street".

I might give $80-100 for it depending on circumstance. For someone on a budget it might be a choice for a house gun. Would NEVER carry it with a loaded chamber........
 
#9 ·
Issues ?
Indifferent Spanish manufacture, old age and the safety only blocks the trigger . A little bad sear engagement or wear and yes it will fire if dropped.

If you spent $100 or less you did ok if you spent more then just love it for what it is.
good choice for working up .32ACP handloads if it has a good bore. Another choice would be to blank adapt it for use as a stage prop. depending on your area an aspiring film maker, local theater troupe or reenactor might really like it for firing blanks.
 
#11 ·
Check to see if there is a star stamped on either side of the magazine release. If so, your pistol was accepted into the French army during the war. I've got three versions of ruby pistols and find them to be well-made and solid. The many small workshops in the Eibar region of Spain which produced these firearms comprise an interesting chapter in the history of military weapons. Any firearm still functioning after nearly a century deserves to be cherished and preserved for the next generation.
 
#12 ·
I have seen both 1914 and 1915 Model Paramounts, the model year was a marketing gimmick, all Paramounts are post-war. Paramount is a trade name patented and used by two different companies in the post war years. The original grips would have been black horn, hard rubber, or plastic with PARAMOUNT in a banner across the top. I don't think the famous French stars were applied DURING the war, but rather in the 1922 timeframe when the French went through and cleaned up their inventory. Any Ruby on hand would be a WWI era pistol, so in a sense it was WWI French Army, but the stars came later. An important corollary to this is: not all French WWI Ruby pistols will have the French Stars. Pistols taken out of service before the end of the war (or 1922), for instance if the French soldier shelved it at home because he preferred a different weapon, if it was aquirred by a dough boy, or captured by a German. No pistols I have seen with such a background have the French Star stamps.
 
#13 ·
Ruby wonders

saw this post just now I have recently bought a gun just like it off gun broker. They neglected to tell me it had no fireing pin or spring. Is the paramount a two piece pin? I will have to make one any thoughts on which is better ? The magazine that came in it was too long so the lips were bent so it would fit. this magazine has a small circle of )'s like a flower. Any idea which or if any Ruby it would belong to.
 
#14 ·
Saw your pistol when it was listed, the magazine I believe belongs to a Martian pistol, my pre WWI Martian has the same marking. I've been told the two piece pin is less likely to break, but I really don't know which one is better. I suppose the originals are all one piece because it was easier to make and assemble.
 
#15 ·
"I don't think the famous French stars were applied DURING the war, but rather in the 1922 timeframe when the French went through and cleaned up their inventory"

Freehouse, I have a question: so if in 1922 the french went to the trouble to stamp stars on ALL Ruby pistols, why did they also add a left-slide rivet to only SOME of the Ruby's?
 
#16 ·
For Tex2 : Most Ruby types I've seen have a one piece firing pin. Not too hard to make but can be tricky to fit ! Make sure protrusion at rear is not too long. Have made them out of brass rod with fairly good results, drill rod too.

Seems there are lots of info about these types floating around . There is a very good link posted right here !
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?88044-Pistolet-Automatique-de-7-millimètre-65-genre-Ruby

Seems the stars were stamped during the war, not after and not consistently.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I didn't state the French stamped ALL Ruby pistols with French Stars in 1922, you did. I honestly don't know what the French did and when, I just know a few bits of references from books, and comments from fellow French collectors in France, along with my own observations.

Medlin states in his books, The French 1935 Pistols, and French Service Handguns, that the French had 588,000 Ruby type pistols in November, 1918. It was estimated that 968,000 Ruby and Star Model 1914s were purchased by the French altogether. What isn't exactly clear is if the 588,000 Ruby pistols, were just the ones in storage or if they included the pistols still issued to troops. In any case, a large number of pistols were put into storage after all small arms were declared obsolete by the French in 1919. Some of these pistols were shipped to the Finns in 1919. To my knowledge, none of the Finnish Ruby pistols have stars.

Based on what I have been told by a fellow French collector/researcher in NAPCA, and what some researchers shared with Medlin, is that these stars were applied to pistols as they passed through arsenal reworks in the 1920s. What I do know is this. There is a wide variance in the shape and size of the stars, so they were not standardized. That leads me to believe they were applied at different times and places. Nor is there a direct relation to stars and safety balls, some have one or the other, others have both or none. There are also plenty of pistols that have the stars that don't appear to be reworked, perhaps they were only checked for functionality and "accepted" and marked with a stamp. I also know in that numerous instances I hold credible, of the pistols that saw WW1 service and were withdrawn from French service before the end of WWI, these pistols have neither the ball or the stars.

I have seen a few French Army manuals all through the 1920s and 1930s and they continue to reference the Ruby, but make no mention of the star marks. One dated from 1920 does not show the safety ball, one from the 1930s does picture a safety ball. I don't think every pistol in French custody in the 1920s had the safety ball. Consider this. The French Unique Model 1917 was a post-war Ruby type pistol made in Hendaye, France. In 1940 the French started buying all they could. It is nearly identical to the ones made in WWI, but of a higher quality, and stronger, plastic grips. None of these pistols came off the production line with a safety ball, even the ones intentionally contracted by the government after the factory stopped all commercial production. After the Germans left, the factory sold many more thousand of their newer "War Model" with the internal hammer to the French government. These too were not sold with safety balls. One will find a few WWII produced pistols and War Models with the balls, but I'd say the numbers are no more than one in five. What does this mean? The French NEVER added balls to all of their Rubys, instead, it appears they were more of an arsenal rework, and that apparently differed between arsenals.

So this leads us back to your original question, and I say this, I don't think all Ruby pistols were marked with stars, just as you state not all had the balls marked. I would have to guess that the decision to add stars and balls was made on a local level. I have avoided all together the issue of when these pistols received the makers marks on the pistol and the magazine. That is a whole other can of worms.

One more thing, I'm not sure the safety ball was worth the effort. I myself, and another collector independently, have tested these Rubys in holsters and can't find any evidence that they help. Of more weight, when the Germans took over Model 17 production in Hendaye during WWII, they didn't waste their time with these safety balls. Instead, they got rid of that silly bulbous safety itself, and made the safety very sleek and modern looking. This was a much better solution.
 
#20 ·
I'm reading on another forum an interesting theory that star stamp acceptance marks were done at the Spanish factories (although on this forum one very coherent author posits that stars were stamped in Bayonne, France). You mention the variation among star stamp dimensions, shapes. I wonder if there is a correlation between particular stamp attributes and particular factories? I only have a sample of two pistols to tap into, both Gabilondo y Uresti but star stamps are identical. Anyone have a database of star pictures by maker?
 
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