Gunboards Forums banner

MAB model D serial number

71K views 106 replies 36 participants last post by  Chernabog 
#1 · (Edited)
I have two MAB model D's with 4 didget serial numbers. Can anyone tell me about year what they were made?

Thanks
Todd
 
#2 ·
According to MAB datas, a model D with a 4 digit serial number doesn't exist (e.g. the firsts made in 1933 had the serial 10500 for the 9 mm short version and 10730 for the 7,65 mm version). The only pistols close to a D with that kind of serial numbers are the model C, which serial numbers re-began after the war (after november 1946- 3401 in september 1948, 7141 in march 1950, over 23000 in march 1954) and and may be the model C/D, began to be made in january 1950 (from serial number I, serial number 276 in march 1954).
To say more about the serial numbers of the MAB model D : In 1936, the serial numbers were over 19 000. During the war, more or less 50 000 pistols have been delivered to the germans (serial numbers between 47000 and 97000 but it seem that during that period, some serial numbers could have been used twice due to the disorder caused by the germans). In june 1945, serial number 103431, in september 1948 : 77281 (!), in march 1950 : 79221, in march 1954 : 122041 to 123201, in september 1956 : 326821 to 327021.
 
#3 ·
4 digit MAB D Pistols

What you have is the late production guns not used by the French Military, rather they were given to the Gendarmerie and other agencies in France, at this time, the using agencies renumbered the guns. This is covered in "French Service Handguns" by Huon and Medlin.

Usually there is a "trench" milled in the side of the receiver where the original number was stamped, and they stamped the new number in this cut. I have several here in the shop that are so marked. This is similar to the Unique pistols that have the same style cut in the receiver that enables the stamping of a new number.....

Dale
 
#4 · (Edited)
MAB Model D serial number

Thanks you both for the information you provided.
Here's what I have.
Gun 1 serial # B.F 20XX on the right side of the chamber (no channel) w/ CAL ST A VT very faintly on the bottom of the trigger gaurd.
Gun 2 serial # D 36XX on the right side of the chamber (no channel)
and FCCSA PENN NJ very faintly on the left side of the chamber starting at the front.

Any additional information will be appriceated.
Todd
 
#5 · (Edited)
According to Jean HUON, the weapons with a serial number beginning by "BF" were given to the guards of the "Banque de France". May be the D was used by les Douanes (customs)? The weapons used by the police judiciaire before the 70's or 80's were keeping their original serial number and received a second serial number with the letters "PJ" in front. It seem that the same practise was used by the Police of Paris when it was not yet part of the rest of the french police. The letters in front of the second serial number were "PP". I have seen may be one or two MAB pistols milled and renumbered. I thought this practise was the exception (e.g. for weapons rebuilt with spare parts coming from different weapons). Thanks a lot for the info, Dale.
 
#7 ·
Photos of the pistols would be nice!
 
#9 · (Edited)
Some guns here...

West German Proofed, Ulm proof, 1964 milled out panel, with german marks inside, No 2615. This weapon has no US import marks on it.

"Surete Natonale" original No 2512 not renumbered, no import marks

I will post some pix tomorrow...There is also a D prefix gun with import marks...

Dale
 
#10 ·
Differrances in MABD Pistols

If you look at the pix above, you will note the D series Customs gun has a solid machined trigger, the others have stamped sheet metal triggers....

There apparently was a transition after the war to use up all the earlier parts.....

Dale
 
#11 · (Edited)
MAB Model D ? stamp meaning

Dale,
I own a model D (type 1) with German stamp on barrel and serial #80898. Can you tell me what the stamp means on the frame?: W8A251
It looks like the eagle symbol above the numbers/letters. Thanks.
Doc

I am new to Gunboard Forum and not sure if I have done this correctly. Sorry if I have not followed correct protocol. I will learn.
Doc
 
#12 · (Edited)
Doc -

The mark is "WaA251"; it is called a "Waffenamt" and is the mark of Heereswaffenamt unit 251. Heereswaffenamt = Army Weapons Office/Dept. This mark is a German army acceptance mark used on MAB pistols produced for the German military during the German occupation of France, and inspected and approved for military use by inspection unit 251. The barrel should also have a small eagle & swastika acceptance mark on it. Unit 251 inspected pistols produced in France and Spain for the German military.

The German occupation MAB D s/n range is approx 47000 to 97000. Those in the range 47000 - 86400 have a WaA251 Waffenamt; those 86400 - 97000 have a WaAD20 Waffenamt.

Bill


Dale,
I own a model D (type 1) with German stamp on barrel and serial #80898. Can you tell me what the stamp means on the frame?: W8A251
It looks like the eagle symbol above the numbers/letters. Thanks.
Doc

I am new to Gunboard Forum and not sure if I have done this correctly. Sorry if I have not followed correct protocol. I will learn.
Doc
 
#14 · (Edited)
Doc -

As with all firearms recently, prices have wildly fluctuated. To see what people are currently willing (or not willing) to pay, I'd review current and recent auctions on GunBroker. Generally, the pistols with Waffenamts are clearly described as such (ie, look for Waffenamt, German, Nazi, etc) since this is a desirable enough characteristic that it generally increases the asking price -- and has enticed some sellers into adding a WaA (or something that passes as one) to pistols that, in some cases, were made after WWII ended.

This is an issue of fascination with WWII German militaria and sometimes Nazi symbolism, I think. In terms of rarity, French military Type 1 MAB Ds *without* a Waffenamt are much more rare; about 50,000 (almost half the Type 1 production) were made during the German occupation and bear a WaA. On the other hand, only about 6,000 were made after the end of the occupation, all or virtually all before WWII ended in Europe in May 1945, and most for the French military (some are marked for the (then) French protectorate of Morocco). Another approx 47,000 were made from 1933 to the beginning of the German occupation in June 1940; of these, about 16,000 (s/n 31000 - 47000) are believed to have gone to the French military. This indicates that there are about 22,000 French military Type 1 MAB Ds, vs about 50,000 with WaA.

The rarest may be the Type 1 MAB Ds with an "L" prefixed s/n -- apparently about 1,160 of these were made at some point during the German occupation. Although otherwise indistingushable from the standard German occupation pistols, they do not bear WaA marks.

Bill
 
#18 · (Edited)
Thank you for the information and the citations. As requested, pics. I can also tell you it was a vet bring back from World War 2, and at the time acquired over there was residing in a Polish Radom holster. Unfortunately my relative bought it off another GI in theatre, and I do not know where it was originally acquired. Don't mind the missing grips, the originals were warped and almost melted looking, I am sourcing replacements, and hope to try it out soon. The outside has some wear as you can see but the internals are mint.




 
#21 · (Edited)
Thank you for the information and the citations. As requested, pics. I can also tell you it was a vet bring back from World War 2, and at the time acquired over there was residing in a Polish Radom holster. Unfortunately my relative bought it off another GI in theatre, and I do not know where it was originally acquired. Don't mind the missing grips, the originals were warped and almost melted looking, I am sourcing replacements, and hope to try it out soon. The outside has some wear as you can see but the internals are mint.
Thanks for the photos. Your latch is the same as mine. While a sample of 2 out of 1160 is too small to be definitive, it is a good indication that these are the original latches.

Here is what more I can tell you about these. The appearance of the legend on the left side of the slides of all of these I have seen (four now, but with s/n scattered throughout the 1160 pistol range) indicates worn stamps and matches those of middle-late German occupation MAB Ds. The slide hold-open latch on your and my pistols is also typical of middle-late occupation MAB Ds. More importantly, this is not the type of latch I have seen on the last of the occupation MAB Ds or on the post-occupation Type I MAB Ds, which seems to be unique to them. This, coupled with the presence of the "MAB" on the right frame, also suggests the L-prefix pistols were not made at the very end of, or just after, the German occupation, but earlier.

As far as I know, except for these pistols, MAB did not use letter-prefix serial numbers before the end of WWII. On the post-war pistols, letter-prefix s/ns were used with pistols intended for French government or government-related entities, such as Customs, the Bank of France, national Forestry service, national railroad, etc. The letter-prefixes chosen in those cases were related to the name of the agency: "BF" for Banque de France, "CF" for the railroad (SNCF, or Société Nationale des Chemins de fer français), "D" for Customs (DGDDI, or la Douane), etc. So it seems probable that the "L" was used because it relates to the name of whatever entity for which these pistols were intended.

Since there are no WaA marks, it seems likely that these pistols were not intended for German military use. On the other hand, I have read that at least some of the fremdengerate (foreign) pistols used by German forces occupying some of the British Channel islands were also not WaA-marked, so it is possible the Germans intended them for some special use.

I've attached a copy of the MAB letter.

Bill

View attachment 288117
 
#20 ·
Vintage grips in Florida has the grips but if you can order them with out the screw holes drilled! Their drilled holes are off enough that you have to oblong them. I don't know if they sell them anymore with out the drilled holes but they used to.

The sets I have put away for another time have a part number of M2 and the packages say Byron Grips made by Vintage grips. But like I mentioned these were bought many years ago.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Thanks for the info, it really answers some questions. Unfortunately, the attachment does not work.
Let me try sending it again, this time via PhotoBucket.

BTW, you appear to have the first type of MAB D magazine, with the holes in both sides. It should also have "MAB 7.65" stamped into the base. During the German occupation, this was replaced with a design similar to the Unique 17 & Kriegsmodell magazine, with two slots on the left side and the two sides folded over the base. Sometime after WWII MAB replaced this with a third design, with the same slots but the sides crimped to the base rather than folded over. All three types of magazines are interchangable.

The first type of MAB D magazine is not really rare, but it is uncommon. The second type is pretty easy to find, and the third type not difficult to find, although it seems less common than the second type. (There are also a variety of aftermarket magazines of various designs and reliability, some of which resemble the MAB OEM magazines.)

Bill

 
#24 ·
Mab D serial number 34629 Police D' Etat

Grips are the Vintage ones that had to be fitted via the screw holes.



 
#25 ·
Have you guys ever seen one that has a finish that looks a lot like the green park' on US WWII weapons?

I just bought one with a "D 46xx" serial number but all the ones I've been seeing online are blued. If it's a refinish, it's a very old refinish job.... anyway, just curious. :)
 
#27 ·
Boozoo -- the only D-prefix MAB Ds I've seen that were not blued were refinished. The D-prefix pistols are most likely surplused from the French Customs Service (Direction générale des douanes et droits indirects (DGDDI), with the customs agents commonly called douaniers), and your pistol probably dates to the 1950s. (What does your slide legend say? -- Your pistol is from around the time the MAB D slide legend changed.)

Commercial MABs were available in several different finishes, depending on the year, but I've never seen a French government MAB that wasn't blued.

Bill

Have you guys ever seen one that has a finish that looks a lot like the green park' on US WWII weapons?

I just bought one with a "D 46xx" serial number but all the ones I've been seeing online are blued. If it's a refinish, it's a very old refinish job.... anyway, just curious. :)
 
#26 ·
I just picked this up at the closing of my favorite gun store yesterday. It's an L prefix model, with melted looking grips, and an early style magazine that is original, but does not have the stamping on the bottom. I just shot it and it shot extremely well and was dead center. I've printed out the letter posted previously regarding the L prefixes. and I'll post pics here of the pistol both sides, and the holster that came with it, holster has no markings.

Frank
 

Attachments

#28 ·
Frank,

Good catch. The L-prefix pistols appear to be the most-rare MAB D version. Based on the physical characteristics of the pistols, they appear to be from around the middle of the German occupation. That the L-prefix pistols typically come with the early magazine type supports this, although the MAB D magazine types are commonly intermixed among these pistols, so cannot be relied upon too much.

The warped grips is a typical problem with the WWII and early post-WWII pistols, and is due to the grips being made of casein, a milk-sold based plastic. There does not seem to be any effective way to correct the shrinkage and warpage; attempts to apply heat and/or moisture to restore them have been unsatisfactory, sometimes resulting in the grips breaking as they dry out again if they've been remounted on the pistol while pliable.

One of the nice things about your pistol is that it is still original. Later imports not only had the rear sights and grips changed to "target" versions to increase their BATF import score, but also usually have the ejection port enlarged to expose the end of the extractor (which was often then painted red) so it could be claimed as a "loaded chamber indicator," worth a few more points. While the other "improvements" can be corrected, this cannot.

Bill

I just picked this up at the closing of my favorite gun store yesterday. It's an L prefix model, with melted looking grips, and an early style magazine that is original, but does not have the stamping on the bottom. I just shot it and it shot extremely well and was dead center. I've printed out the letter posted previously regarding the L prefixes. and I'll post pics here of the pistol both sides, and the holster that came with it, holster has no markings.

Frank
 
#30 ·
[QUOTE=Gun_Shy;1392566]The D-prefix pistols are most likely surplused from the French Customs Service (Direction générale des douanes et droits indirects (DGDDI), with the customs agents commonly called douaniers), and your pistol probably dates to the 1950s.
Bill[/QUOTE]

I would rather say their MABs date from the 60s. In the 50s, they still had Ruby type pistols.
 
#31 ·
Frog,

I don't think that all D-prefix pistols are that late. I am certain D-prefix s/n pistols go back to the 1950s and suspect they may go back to the late 1940s. Both MAB D and Ruby-type pistols were used at the same time by some French agencies, so perhaps here as well.

Thanks to information posted by Alamas about a year ago that provides dates for the production or shipment of specific pistols, it is now possible to establish a rough chronology for MAB D pistols if we start with a few premises. Those premises are:

1 - The markings and characteristics of MAB pistols evolved over the years.

2 - These changes were generally consistent with the progression of the s/n, so that pistols with latter markings and characteristics have later s/n, allowing for the restart of MAB s/n in the years after WWII. (Given the realities of factory production, with multiple workers making pistols at multiple workstations drawing parts from a common storage area, it is to be expected that in some cases parts with new markings or features will end up on a pistol with a somewhat earlier s/n, and there may be a small number of anomolies with wildly divergent s/n, but the general trend holds true.)

3 - The letter-prefix s/n pistols are the same as "regular" numeric s/n pistols manufactured at the same time. That is, MAB did not reserve old parts or machinery for use in making letter-prefix s/n pistols, while using new parts and machinery for "regular" numeric s/n pistols.

4 - The letter-prefix s/n are chronological -- that is, the higher the number the later the s/n.

Starting from these premises, while letter-prefix s/n pistols are not included in Alamas' information, it is possible to compare the markings and characteristics of pistols with letter-prefix s/n to pistols with "regular" numeric s/n, and so include letter-prefix s/n pistols within a larger MAB chronology.

In this instance, we know that:

1 - MAB D s/n 329799 (2nd s/n series) was shipped by MAB on May 6, 1957;

2 - MAB Ds with s/n above 300000 have markings and characteristics that do not appear on D-prefix s/n pistols until around D-7100;

3 - MAB D-46xx (Boozoo's pistol) was made before D-7100, so was made before May 6, 1957.

When I asked Boozoo about the markings on his slide it was to determine whether his pistol has markings that are one or two versions before those found on s/n 300000, which really gets to how much before 1957 it should be dated. I have seen D-prefix pistols with s/n below his with one set of markings and D-prefix pistols with s/n above his with a later set of markings, but do not know exactly when they changed. But in either case, his pistol would be from before 1957.

Bill

[QUOTE=Gun_Shy;1392566]The D-prefix pistols are most likely surplused from the French Customs Service (Direction générale des douanes et droits indirects (DGDDI), with the customs agents commonly called douaniers), and your pistol probably dates to the 1950s.
Bill


I would rather say their MABs date from the 60s. In the 50s, they still had Ruby type pistols.[/QUOTE]
 
#32 ·

Shown is my Dad's MAB Modele D.
Note the serial number is NOT the usual, numeric only, rather "P.M 4250"
He bought it of a clearance table in a department store in Dallas, Texas back in the late 1950's.
My research indicates that the expression "Brevete - S.G.D.G" expands to Brevete - sans Garantie du Government, or patent without guarantee of the government (pat pending). I was hoping for the French equivalent of "Specially designed and issued to U.S. Navy Seals."

Can anyone shed light on the odd serial number?

 
#33 ·
MAB serial numbers present a lot of difficulties, starting with MAB restarting its serial number series at various points after WWII. In addition, it also created a number of letter-prefix serial number series separate from the "normal" numeric serial number series used on French military and commerical MAB model D pistols.

Other than the mysterious "L" prefix s/n pistols made during the German occupation of France (and control of the MAB factory), all the known letter prefix s/n MAB pistols are Type II pistols made after June 11, 1945.

The letter-prefix s/n were used on pistols intended for agencies, usually governmental or quasi-governmental, and usually French. Normally one or two letters were used, although there are exceptions, such as the "RPLT" ("Rigspoliti") used on Danish national police MABs.

The letters used refer to the name of the agency the pistol was for. For example:

BF: Banque de France
CF: Société Nationale des Chemins de fer français (SNCF), the French national railway
D: Direction générale des douanes et des droits indirects (DGDDI), the French customs service, usually referred to as “la Douane” with custom officers being referred to as "douaniers”
F: Office National des Forêts (ONF), the French national forestry service
MS: Gouvernement Militaire de la Sarre (GMSA), French occupation of the Saarland, 1945-1956
SNF: Sûreté Nationale français; now the French national police (police nationale)
U: City of Ulm (Germany) police force
B.N.C.I. : Banque Nationale pour le Commerce et l'Industrie (only on Unique pistols)

AF: unknown
DP: unknown
MO: unknown
PA: unknown
P.M: unknown (possibly (1) "Prefecture de Police Marseille"; (2) “police des mines" or "police militaire des mines" (police force responsible for a mining area); (3) "police municipale")
SG: unknown (possibly Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure (DGSE), French intelligence service)
VP: unknown

Your father's pistol is from near the end of the observed "P.M" s/n series (which began in the mid-to-late 1940s), and the pistol's characterisitcs indicate it was probably made about 1955-1957.

Bill
 
#35 ·
Can one of you guys with dial calipers measure your firing pin over all length from your MAB model D? Just bought one and the FP tip is broken off so it won't eject the case. Looks like there is enough meat in front of pin body to drill and lock tight in a pin to get it back to correct length. thanks, rj
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top