Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 46 to 70 of 70

Thread: MAB model D serial number

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    296

    Default

    Hey, I know those MABs, and the table they were photographed on -- they belong to a friend of mine, Ed Buffaloe! That is a factory model C/D, one of the odd pistols with a s/n for the Danish national police, but which later had "for WAC" added after "Made in France" when it was sold to Western Arms (later Winfield Arms) in Los Angeles, the primary importer of MABs into the US at that time.

    AFAIK, the Type I model C pistols (production of the Type II started on 26 Nov, 1946) and Type II model C pistols still in the original s/n series (which ended around 70,000) have slides with the same cut-outs as the model D, while all Type II MAB Cs made after the model C s/n was restarted (in 1947-48) have slides with the cutouts closer together. The "SGDG" doesn't show up on model C slides until the end of 1953 or early 1954, and was used from then until MAB C production ended in the mid-1960s.

    Bill

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Walla Walla, WA
    Posts
    27

    Default

    Right you are Bill, snagged the pics off his sight since they were so nice and clear. So i have to ask why the closer cutouts? The bullet is the same length in either gun and it would seem to me that when you fully open the slide then the closer together cutout would only hold slide open about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way? Making it impossible to get the barrel turned and taken out. I'm sure I'm missing something and there is a good reason for what they did.
    Rob
    Last edited by rjmorel; 10-21-2011 at 07:49 PM.

  3. #48

    Default MAB Model D

    Can anyone date MAB Model D serial Number PM760

    And tell me what PM means.

    Thanks

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    296

    Default

    The "special series" letter-prefix s/n pistols have to be dated by comparing their physical characteristics to pistols in the regular numeric s/n series (which are hard enough to date), so dates can only be approximate.

    This means photos are required, and the sharper and more detailed (ie, larger) the better.

    The meaning of "PM" is still uncertain, although candidates include: (1) "Prefecture de Police Marseille"; (2) “police des mines" or "police militaire des mines" (police force responsible for a mining area); (3) "police municipale." But it could be something else, although the letters used should directly reflect the name of the agency. If (2) is correct, the pistols may have been used in the French occupied part of Germany (1945-1956), especially the Saar region, which included a number of coal mines that had passed back and forth between French and German control for decades.

    The "PM" marked pistols as a group range from the second half of the 1940s into the 1950s. From the s/n, yours is probably from the 1940s; there are some visible changes in the MAB D in the late 1940s that would confirm this. The series appears to end somewhere between PM 4500 - PM 5000.
    A lot of these pistols were imported into the US before 1968, which suggests they were used for a limited time (photos will tell that about your pistol, as well).

    Again, posting some photos would be very helpful.

    Bill

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,416

    Default

    Sorry to bring-up and old thread, but this seems to have the most information on the serials for the Model D. I passed on what was being sold as a prewar Model D rig. It sure looked original including the thin (pig skin?) holster and two proper mags. I passed though because I did not know if it was a prewar or postwar piece (there were no German marks). Is there an easy way for me to tell in case (doubtful) I run across this rig again? Is there a cut-off for prewar serials and a cut-off for German? i.e.....I didn't want to walk away with a postwar gun.

    Thank you,
    Dave
    Last edited by Dave Baird; 10-05-2012 at 02:57 PM.

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    296

    Default

    Dave,

    About 50,000 MAB Ds (all .32/7.65mm) were made for the German army during the occupation. The approximate s/n range is about 47000-97000, according to MAB, although this is not exact. I have seen pistols with no German markings at the low end of the range and have seen German-marked pistols above the high end. This s/n range is only for the first s/n series for these pistols. After WWIi, in the late 1940s, MAB restarted the MAB D s/n series. But the second s/n series applies only to Type II pistols. As well, MAB used a number of special letter-prefix s/n series post-WWII for pistols for various government or quasi-government agencies (these were usually French, but a few others are known, such as the Danish National Police and some German municipal police depts). Only one letter-prefix s/n series is known from before the end of WWII, and that is the "L" series made during the German occupation for reasons still unknown.

    If the MAB D is a Type II, then it was made no earlier than June 1945 -- that is, after the German surrender, and well after the end of the German occupation of France (in 1944). If the MAB D is a Type I, then if it is from the German occupation, then it should have the appropriate WaA on the frame and eagle & swastika proofmark on the barrel. Otherwise it will be the same as the pre-occupation pistols. The only exceptions to this that I know of are one pistol seen from the middle of the German occupation s/n range with no WaA or proofmark (presumbaly it somehow missed the markings), and the Type I MAB Ds from the "L" s/n series. Post-liberation Type I pistols will normally lack both the German markings and the "MAB" proof mark from above the trigger on the right frame. It is possible that there are some early post-liberation pistols assembled with German-marked parts, but I have not seen one.

    Be careful about the German markings. While there are two correct German WaA that were used (one early & middle occupation, the other late occupation), for years there has been a cottage industry adding WaA and the eagle/swastika proof marks to non-occupation pistols (including Type II pistols).

    BTW, the pre-occupation MAB Ds made for the French military are the least common (excluding the "L" series), and other than some Navy pistols being marked with a fouled anchor these have no special markings. They would be the pistols with s/n just before the occupation pistols, since in late 1939 all MAB production was moved to the 7.65mm MAB D for French military use. The exact number of MAB Ds made for the French military pre-war is unknown and appears to overlap with pistols marked for French government police agencies. The closer the s/n is to the beginning of the German occupation pistols the more likely it is from the French military contract. Best guess from Eugene Medlin & Jean Huon is that the French military MAB D s/n range is about 31000 - 47000, about 16,000 pistols, made Sept 1939-June 1940 (see French Service Handguns: 1858-2004, p. 101). (A couple of years ago I saw a very nice pre-occupation French military pistol that someone had -- ahh, "enhanced" -- with fake German markings, destroying all collector value, except for those who collect fakes.)

    Most post-liberation Type I pistols should be regarded as WWII pistols, since they were made as part of the rearmament of the French military after liberation but before WWII ended. Following liberation, French forces were also mobilized against the Japanese occupying French colonies in southeast Asia. Production of the MAB D for civilian use did not resume until the late 1940s (about the time the s/n were restarted).

    BTW, the MAB D had no special holster. The Germans used a generic holster for 7.65mm pistols, and the French military typically used the holster for the PA-1935, although others may have also been used. The police and other agencies (sucha s the Bank of France) using the MAB D pre-war also seemed to have used various holsters.

    If you run across one of these in the future, post photos showing the pistol, s/n, holster, etc, and you should be able to get some help identifying the rig.

    Bill
    Last edited by Gun_Shy; 10-17-2012 at 11:23 PM.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    307

    Default

    I ran across a model D a while back. It was a type II in the low 98000 serial range. Is this one of the out of sequence serial numbers, or did they go to the type II before June 1945? TIA, Ed.

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    296

    Default

    Ed,

    Hmm -- well, it is possible this is a prototype Type II pistol, since production switched from the Type I to Type II in June 1945, so some prototype Type II pistols were made before then. But it would be unusual for a prototype to be in the standard s/n series. And before accepting it as a prototype I'd want to see the pistol, or a set of very good photos of the pistol, to check all the markings, etc. It is far more likely that a Type II pistol with a s/n in the 98000 range is from the second (restarted) s/n series for the model D.

    While the German occupation s/n end in the 97000 range, the Type I s/n range, which is the original s/n range, ends in the low 6-digits -- according to MAB, the production change from the Type I to Type II took place in the 103xxx range; I'd have to check my notes for the exact s/n.

    Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by EDINOH View Post
    I ran across a model D a while back. It was a type II in the low 98000 serial range. Is this one of the out of sequence serial numbers, or did they go to the type II before June 1945? TIA, Ed.

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    2,612

    Default

    This is the L prefix MAB D i snagged awhile back.http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...MAB-D-L-prefix
    Kentucky Football will always suck except when they play Spurrier..

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    The Heart of Virginia
    Posts
    487

    Cool My 2 cents . . . .

    I have one that is serial numbered SG 179
    So-ooo what's the SG mean?
    Regards, Hank
    Augment & Finagle . . . .
    "I collect therefore I accumulate"

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    392

    Default

    May be the gun of a bank guard. A French bank founded in 1864 is named Societe Generale.

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,416

    Default

    Thanks so much, Bill!! Sorry I got back to this so late!! I forgot where I asked the question!!! DAH on me!

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    296

    Default

    Very interesting, Alamas! And since Société Générale was nationalised from 1945-1987, it could easily have been among the quasi-governmental French agencies that had MAB Ds with letter-prefix s/n following WWII (similar to the Banque de France's MAB Ds with "BF" prefix s/n; Unique pistols were sometimes marked with "BNCI" for the "Banque Nationale pour le Commerce et l'Industrie). This suggestion is the best possibility I have yet seen for the meaning of "SG."

    As an alternative, how likely do you think it is that "SG" might refer to "Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure (DGSE)", the French intelligence service?
    Bill
    Quote Originally Posted by Alamas View Post
    May be the gun of a bank guard. A French bank founded in 1864 is named Societe Generale.

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    392

    Default

    DGSE would have preferred the highest discretion.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    296

    Default

    True, although I thought they might have a uniformed branch, similar to the way the US "Secret Service" has, to provide installation security within France.

    DGSE is the only other suggestion I have seen for the "SG" prefix MAB Ds, but I think "Société Générale" is more likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alamas View Post
    DGSE would have preferred the highest discretion.

  16. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,416

    Default

    Hey Bill, if that prewar D rig I'm interested in is still for sale, what style of mags should it have? The seller said they are correct with all the holes, or something like that? I don't remember the serial number but do know there were no German marks on it. According to your generous and kind information posted above, if prewar it should be serial-ed prior to 47,000? Any other early features I should be looking for? (The price is fairly high so I don't want to pay what he is asking if the rig is wartime without the WaA or postwar.)

    Thank you!!!
    Dave

  17. #62
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    WA. State
    Posts
    219

    Default

    Old beater parts gun.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails MVC-861S.JPG   MVC-860S.JPG  

  18. #63
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    296

    Default

    Dave,

    There are three styles of 7.65 MAB D magazines (not including blue vs nickle). The first version, used from the 1930s until sometime during WWII, has holes on both sides of the shell and a pinned base, usually with "MAB 7,65" stamped on the base. The second version -- easier and cheaper to make -- was introduced during the German occupation and appears to be based on the very similar magazine for the Unique model 17 & Kriegsmodele. It has no holes but has two slots on one side of the shell (vs slots on both sides of the Unique mag), and the base is attached by having the bottom of the sides of the shell fold over the base. Normally has no markings. The third type was introduced in the late 1940s, around 1950, and has a shell similar to the second type but with the base attached by means of crimps rather than the folded over tabs. This typically has no markings.

    Some collectors distinguish between two versions of the second type of mag based on the dimensions of the base (length and thickness), with the supposition that one is German occupation and the other post-liberation. I have not seen enough evidence to convince me that this difference is more than normal production variation, but it could be so.

    During the German occupation both the first and second type were used, with a movement from only the first type for early occupation pistols to a mix of both types -- it is not clear if the second type replaced the first type or both were in production for some period. It may be that MAB continued to produce the first type while whatever entity was making the Unique mags produced the second type, with the production of the MAB-made magazines gradually ceasing as the war progressed. It appears that until at least late in the occupation MABs may have been issued with one of each type magazine. Of course, this could have simply been due to using existing stocks of the first type of mag, although in that case I would expect the stocks of first type mags to have been exhausted and replaced by the second type rather than otherwise all-original pistols in excellent condition from late in the occupation showing up farily regularly with one of each type mag.

    All these mags are interchangable, although I have seen some fitting issues with individual late third type magazines and individual early (pre-WWII) pistols, and vice versa. I have also seen the same combinations work without a problem with other magazines and model Ds, so this may be due to production variances.

    The only known difference between pre-occupation and occupation 7.65 MAB Ds is that the former lack the German markings, other than the very earliest pistols (1933, maybe into 1934) having different slide legends and some commercial model Ds (pre- and post-WWII) never having the lanyard stud and ring installed (nor the hole in the base of the grip to install one).

    Too, while MAB stated that the German occupation model Ds fell in the s/n range 47000 - 97000 (and L1 - L1160), this range should be regarded as nominal rather than exact. The lowest German-marked pistol I have seen is (according to its owner) s/n 35771, but the German markings are not normal and very suspicious; the lowest clearly authentic German-marked pistol I have seen is s/n 47768, while s/n 47666 has no German markings. So it appears the German s/n start somewhere between those two. The highest German marked pistol I have seen is s/n 97906, followed by s/n 98309 with typical post-liberation French army rearmament markings, so the German s/n appear to end somewhere between those two. I should note that several pistols have been found within the German occupation range with no German markings and no evidence that the markings have been altered (ie, German markings scrubbed); it is not clear if these pistols failed the German inspection and were set aside (and later recovered/repaired post-liberation), slipped through the German inspection system unmarked, or were stolen from the factory (although such "lunch-time specials" typically are stolen before they receive a s/n, since that puts them in factory records). But I know of only 3 or 4 of these.

    Bill

    Here are examples of the three types of magazines:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MAB D mag Type 1 01.jpg 
Views:	1 
Size:	50.4 KB 
ID:	614051Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MAB D mag Type 1 02.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	49.5 KB 
ID:	614050Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MAB D mag Type 1 03.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	46.3 KB 
ID:	614052Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MAB D mag Type 2 01.jpg 
Views:	1 
Size:	15.4 KB 
ID:	614053Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MAB D mag Type 2 02.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	15.7 KB 
ID:	614054Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MAB D mag Type 2 03.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	13.8 KB 
ID:	614055Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MAB D mag Type 3 01.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	16.6 KB 
ID:	614056Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MAB D mag Type 3 02.jpg 
Views:	3 
Size:	15.2 KB 
ID:	614057

  19. #64
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    6,979

    Default

    I have a Moroccan marked MAB D which I think was made about 1953, s/n 112260. Is there any information on how many were made for Morocco?

    Regards,
    Bill

  20. #65
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    296

    Default

    Bill,

    Well -- while without seeing photos I can't be sure (ie, I need to see the markings and physical characteristics of the pistol) it is most likely that you have an early Type II pistol from very late 1945 or, more likely, 1946, with a s/n in the original s/n series. According to MAB, the switch in production from the Type I to Type II model D took place on 11 June, 1945, at s/n 103431 in the original (first) s/n series.

    The Moroccan marked model Ds I have seen are all Type I pistols or Type II pistols from the original s/n series. I have not seen any Moroccan marked pistols from the restarted (second) s/n series. These pistols all fall in the s/n range 100000 - 118000, but this range also includes pistols without the Moroccan mark.

    On the Moroccan mark -- while I refer to it as Moroccan and it is widely accepted that the "palm tree" is the mark of the Kingdom of Morocco, then a French protectorate, this has never been firmly established as far as I know. In fact, one collector has written that he may have kicked this off some years ago when he and other collectors were speculating on the meaning of this mark (which is also found on Unique pistols from the same period) and he said that it reminded him of a Moroccan mark he'd seen in some other context. Clearly this mark is related to the French military (which includes the Gendarmerie), and clearly the pistols come from the post-liberation period of French military rearmament, but it is possible that it is not actually related to the Kingdom of Morocco but to something else.

    Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    I have a Moroccan marked MAB D which I think was made about 1953, s/n 112260. Is there any information on how many were made for Morocco?

    Regards,
    Bill

  21. #66
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,416

    Default

    Thank you, Bill. If I can kick this cold, I'll head back up to see if the rig is still available.

    Merry Christmas, Dave

  22. #67
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    6,979

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Shy View Post
    Bill,

    Well -- while without seeing photos I can't be sure (ie, I need to see the markings and physical characteristics of the pistol) it is most likely that you have an early Type II pistol from very late 1945 or, more likely, 1946, with a s/n in the original s/n series. According to MAB, the switch in production from the Type I to Type II model D took place on 11 June, 1945, at s/n 103431 in the original (first) s/n series.

    The Moroccan marked model Ds I have seen are all Type I pistols or Type II pistols from the original s/n series. I have not seen any Moroccan marked pistols from the restarted (second) s/n series. These pistols all fall in the s/n range 100000 - 118000, but this range also includes pistols without the Moroccan mark.

    On the Moroccan mark -- while I refer to it as Moroccan and it is widely accepted that the "palm tree" is the mark of the Kingdom of Morocco, then a French protectorate, this has never been firmly established as far as I know. In fact, one collector has written that he may have kicked this off some years ago when he and other collectors were speculating on the meaning of this mark (which is also found on Unique pistols from the same period) and he said that it reminded him of a Moroccan mark he'd seen in some other context. Clearly this mark is related to the French military (which includes the Gendarmerie), and clearly the pistols come from the post-liberation period of French military rearmament, but it is possible that it is not actually related to the Kingdom of Morocco but to something else.

    Bill
    bill,

    Thanks for all the good info. I'll post photos first chance I get.

    Regards,
    Bill

  23. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,416

    Default

    Oh Bill, the holster is light brown, looks like a standard WWII 'breakaway' with a spare mag pouch on the front. It is very thin yet supple leather in great shape. It has a butt flap like the postwar P38 holsters did. Would a holster with a butt flap be correct for a prewar MAB D?
    Dave

  24. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Walla Walla, WA
    Posts
    27

    Default

    Need a little help here with my Mab D. Seems to always light strike the first round and won't fire . Eject that one and sometimes the rest of the mag will fire, not always. Looking at the primer of the light strike ejected bullet and you can barely see the firing pin hitting the primer. On the shells that do fire ,they have a nice dent from the firing pin. Any ideas as to why Fpin is light striking almost always on the first round chambered????? As far as I know pistol is all original D. I did swap a C slide onto it further up in this thread #39 but it's been awhile and have it backto stock now. I took off C slide and now have this problem. thanks ,rj

  25. #70
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    308

    Default

    I am happy to report that another L prefix MAB has surfaced.

    L476 popped up at my local Cabelas. Unfortunately in vet bringback style, chromed with Plexiglas grips. Mechanically excellent though. I will be restoring it as and when I can.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •