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  1. #1
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    Default Gunbroker 1905 Spandau Gew.98

    It would have been a good one if the stock hadn't been sanded...

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=108539124

  2. #2
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    Geeze louise, the prices on these are getting stupid---though this Spandau is more realistic than that recent 17 Amberg.

    Am I blind, or does this rifle not have a spot of blue on it?

  3. #3
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    Beautiful stock - too bad someone "improved" it.

    If that Gew would have had an original sling attached (in good shape), and un-sanded stock and a nice unit mark on the disc, that price would be a little more appropriate. But just barely!

    T
    “The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”
    - Thomas Jefferson

    Not a single one of my guns shot anybody yesterday, or the day before that. I guess my guns just aren't the "bad" ones.

  4. #4
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    Alamo, there's a good chance that the disc is unit marked, just been flipped to hide the marking---which is fortunate, since the disc apparently got sanded along with the wood. Lots of pre-war gewehrs got their discs flipped or replaced so as not to give intel to the opposition. Of course, not all pre-war gewehrs were unit marked.

    The disc in my rifle linked below was flipped, and the unit marking likely hasn't seen daylight since before the Great War started...

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=61142

  5. #5
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    Default

    Ken, yes, not a hint of bluing left.

    007alex, stop, look, & listen...the stock has no dings or any marks showing use, the serial # on the bottom of the buttstock is almost gone, and the proofs on the right side of the buttstock no longer exist.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by feldmutze View Post

    007alex, stop, look, & listen...the stock has no dings or any marks showing use, the serial # on the bottom of the buttstock is almost gone, and the proofs on the right side of the buttstock no longer exist.
    Mike ; It's almost a waste of breath to explain these details anymore. You have more patience than me on such matters.

  7. #7
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    Dear Billdildoe: well, but only "almost". There are always new people coming to the boards, and they will benefit from patience. You were a newbie once too ;-).

    Carcano

  8. #8

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    007alex, stop, look, & listen...the stock has no dings or any marks showing use, the serial # on the bottom of the buttstock is almost gone, and the proofs on the right side of the buttstock no longer exist.[/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Billdildoe View Post
    Mike ; It's almost a waste of breath to explain these details anymore. You have more patience than me on such matters.
    Don't you think you could have gave the same info without being a sarcastic ass? I think we all come here out of a similer interest in firearms as well as a willingness to learn. If peoples comments about something you posted in a public forum cause you such grief then why even bother.

  9. #9
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    I didn't start the thread to have it turn into a crapfest. Bill's comment was mild, not dirrected towards any individual, & he didn't reference any newbie being an "ass" or anything such, so the sarcastic ass comment wasn't really necessary, now was it?

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by feldmutze View Post
    Ken, yes, not a hint of bluing left.

    007alex, stop, look, & listen...the stock has no dings or any marks showing use, the serial # on the bottom of the buttstock is almost gone, and the proofs on the right side of the buttstock no longer exist.
    My appologize's , the comment was directed to you and they sarcastic way you told alex to " stop, look, & listen ". I as well am a newbie and still have trouble with the quote things.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcano View Post
    Dear Billdildoe: well, but only "almost". There are always new people coming to the boards, and they will benefit from patience. You were a newbie once too ;-).

    Carcano
    Carc ; When you/me were "newbies" in collecting there was no internet or similar mass communication fornication. As well in those days asking questions of your peers generally taught one , or at least enabled you to use what god gave you to look/read between the lines. Times have changed. There is a plethora of armchair commando generations that take print over hands on and argue to the point of absurdity. You know the type that need to be spoon fed data their way or nothing else.
    I have related many times over the years about such strange fellows that when you try and show them - it blows up in your face with their rudeness and absolute ignorance of reality.
    Talking shop - Love it . Talking shop to idiots with preconceived notions that refute fact for facts sake...me no like . nor me no tolerate with as much civility as I get.
    Now for another adult beverage and another coat of thinset before the flooring.

  12. #12
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    Everybody have a beer, we do this for fun remember. In the case of this rifle, it is pretty obvious to me that the stock has been sanded. Can I prove it? Depends on what level of proof you want, beyond any doubt, beyond a reasonable doubt, by a perpondance of the evidence? I don't have a notarized, date stamped photo of it being sanded post war, so I can't meet the strictest standard. But I think I could meet the other two, and I am far from being as knowledgable as some others who frequent this board.

    1) pictures are fuzzy
    2) metal finish appears to have little if any blue left
    3) stock finish appears to be in mint condition
    4) stock numbers are faint and not consistent in appearance with known unaltered originals.

    based on the above I can logically conclude that the rifle has seen extensive handling, use, enough to cause extreme blue wear. The stock has no apparent dings, dents that would be consistent with the amount of wear that is on the metal.
    Even if we assume the smooth finish is from extremely even handling over the entire wood surface, any rifle carried, used this much would have normal handling nicks and dings.

    In short the appearance of the wood and metal just don't match. It is like putting a new production blued sight hood on a well worn K98k, it stands out like a sore thumb.

    In this hobby we don't deal in absolutes, but known patterns. The rifle shown doesn't conform to expected patterns, so it is suspect until shown to be correct. If we reverse the burden of proof, as is done in a court of law, we would still be trying to "prove" that K98ks didn't leave the factory with blued butt-plates, or that the M44 with skull and crossbones stamps, shown on another location on Gunboards, isn't a German capture item as the seller alledges.

    Having said all that, I would love to own the rifle in question. It appears to be a legit numbers matching, and to me, that is more important than unsanded wood, but that is my personal preference and others I respect see it much differently.
    Last edited by runner; 08-31-2008 at 12:39 AM.

  13. #13
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    Default Speaking from personal experience .....

    When the time comes that any one of you guys talking here gets sick, becomes disabled, loses his house, loses everything he owns, has to break into his safe and sell off his most beautiful possessions, just to survive ......................... then you'll see these conversations the same way i do.

    Respectfully, I'm just happy for you that you've got the extra life's energy to spend it this way.

  14. #14
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    Default what?! How'd I get in this forum????

    Sorry guys, I must have clicked a wrong button -- for some reason I thought I was in the WTS forum. I defer to you here --- these forums *are* the proper place to argue about details such as you guys were all doing .... IMO, that's part of the legitimate fun of collecting. Mea culpa. Hope you all can accept my apologies for butting in wrongly. Now, which way is it back to my room at the nursing home ......... ?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishin2Morrow View Post
    When the time comes that any one of you guys talking here gets sick, becomes disabled, loses his house, loses everything he owns, has to break into his safe and sell off his most beautiful possessions, just to survive ......................... then you'll see these conversations the same way i do.

    Respectfully, I'm just happy for you that you've got the extra life's energy to spend it this way.
    Good point, we need to keep things like sanded/not sanded stocks in perspective. Sounds like you have/had some tough times. I hope for your recovery, both physically and financially.

  16. #16
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    Alex, your reaction to the original comments on this topic are way out of proportion. While I thought that "Bill's" comment was forgetful of the fact that we are all still learning something about these wonderful old firearms, no one accused the seller or buyer of being ignorant, less intelligent or inferior to anyone else. Those were assumptions you made.

    What was conveyed was simply the opinions (educated one's I believe) of a few collectors based on the images available and their own experiences with Gew 98's. More importantly, was was said was merely that some of us would not spend over $700 dollars on a rifle that appears to be modified in a significant way. So what? What difference does it make to you that I don't want to purchase a particular rifle for a specific price, because of my own preferences? That is not a judgement on whether you would or should buy or sell this rifle.
    I don't collect Japanese arms. Does that mean I'm accusing all collectors of Japanese milsurps of being idiots and wasteful of their money? Evidently, it does in your mind.

    Runner's comments were spot on as was the suggestion to relax and enjoy what is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby.

    T
    “The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”
    - Thomas Jefferson

    Not a single one of my guns shot anybody yesterday, or the day before that. I guess my guns just aren't the "bad" ones.

  17. #17
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    What a raving lunatic.. you need a psych eval as bad as anyone I have ever come across- even for a forum.


    Quote Originally Posted by 007alex View Post
    what does it mean "to have been a good one" ... who the hell is this guy trying to say what's good and not... just state facts...

    and thanks that you brought to our attention that this rifles stocks has no markings, so what... sooooooooooooooo whattttttttttttttttttttttttt...


    It's a 1905 Gew.98, what does it mean to be good or bad, that's just an opinion, we don't need opinions, keep it to yourselves...

    this forums are for asking questions not deciding who has what that is good or bad, we can say is it fake, cause you don't want that... but what's good or bad... what book can I open, which would say this rifle is bad or good...

    it would have been good if the stock wasn't that way, meaning it's not good... why would any admin ever let a post like this be posted still amazes me... it OUT RIGHT DEGRADES THE OWNER'S PROPERTY... and some might say he just said something, but false statements have ruined many things in history that much we know...

    keep your freakin opinions to yourselves....


    keep your freakin opinions to yourselves.....



    do i need to repeat again =)




    alex

  18. #18
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    Gentlemen, we take this truth to be self evident; that all Mausers (1898-1918) were created equal. What happened since then is another story entirely, and we should be able to discuss the relative pluses and minuses of each piece with dispassionate civility, recognizing that not all are equally knowledgeable on the subject. I know that I have learned alot from everyone on this board, and thank you all for it.

  19. #19
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    Take your medication, 007alex, please... or at least 3 pills of valerian.

    We don't won't to see another university shooting, do we, and you seem close on the verge of breaking. Just calm down and put a cover over the keyboard, that will be god for everybody. :-)

    Regards,
    Carcano

  20. #20
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    Tex, it probably could have read "stop, look, listen, & learn" (if that's possible)....


    "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
    Mark Twain
    US humorist, novelist, short story author, & wit (1835 - 1910)

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by 007alex View Post
    This is amazing, how can you prove that that stock has been sanded and not just over handled?


    I mean I got the serial number on my Chilean 1895 almost wiped out but looks as if the stock cartouches were put on their yesterday. The stock has never seen sand paper or any kind of harsh cleaning, yet the serial number is almost gun... well partially at least!

    I don't see any sand paper scratches anywhere on that rifle and the wood metal fit seems fine????????????????????????????????

    To do that much sanding to remove every bump and scratch and then smooth it out would have to leave some wood-metal fit opening and negative reciprocations and all looks good.

    Yes, yes... I understand... you guys are not scientists and I don't blame you... You say the marks are gone but there is no way you can disprove the possibility that they could of been just over handled and rubbed out over a long and systematic harsh life... how do you know it was sanded here... how can you disprove it wasn't sanded over seas???

    And again Billy, you show up your face??? Just amazing... where are my 3 Gew.98's for $600. I am still waiting.

    What is it... I just don't get it... are you people jealous that they're not buying your rifles? Tell me I want to know... why do you guys always have to poke your heads into others business...

    yes the markings are not there, how do you know what happened, where, what, by whom, HOW DO YOU KNOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW...

    You guys don't like it fine... you guys want stuff with markings great... go get it.... but for the millionth time stop degrading people's properties without having sufficient proof!!!

    HOW CAN SOMEONE FOR 100% TELL THAT THAT RIFLE DIDN'T NOT GET HERE LIKE THAT...

    The slightest chance that any modification was done after WWII and man are there proves of modifications, that's that... None of you in here, including myself, can prove beyond reasonable doubt that that rifle was ever sanded and if it was, it was done here in the US ...

    You guys are forgiven... I understand that there all alot of uneducated non-scientist people out there, who jump to conclusions...

    I mean why do you guys care how much these buyers pay... You're so worried, bust out one of your all matching Gew.98's with all respective markings and sell it to them for $250... I MEAN WHAT THE PROBLEM... THIS NEVER GETS SOLVED...

    I MEAN CAN'T YOU LOSERS (billy,feld) BE MORE LIKE JOHN WALL, DOCAV, MAUSERDAD, JIMMYC and all the other respectable guys, who give facts based on actual historical and serious up close observations, and don't degrade people's properties based on pre-mature assumptions... If they can't rule it out for sure, they just say the simplest thing, which you gentlemen have a hard time saying because maybe you guys are so proud of yourselves... WE... JUST... DON'T... KNOW... 4 words, can you guys count =)

    that's fine...




    Alex, you need to relax a little, no one has said anything that should have upset you this much. For what it is worth not much I know, I agree with Bill. The rifle has been sanded and the price paid was well over it's current value, especially with the sanding, it totally destroyed its value as a collectible. As you learn more about collecting, whether its rifles or anything, high dollar goes to the "un-fooled with". To bad really, it was a nice rifle before the guy got to it with the sandpaper. If the purchaser is happy with it fine, its really non of our business. You need to be careful about your remarks.
    Last edited by TP; 08-31-2008 at 09:38 AM.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by 007alex View Post
    ...................
    No one cares about your opinions...
    ...................
    take care
    alex

    Alex, others are beginning to feel the same way, please leave this alone.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by 007alex View Post
    what does it mean "to have been a good one" ... who the hell is this guy trying to say what's good and not... just state facts...

    and thanks that you brought to our attention that this rifles stocks has no markings, so what... sooooooooooooooo whattttttttttttttttttttttttt...


    It's a 1905 Gew.98, what does it mean to be good or bad, that's just an opinion, we don't need opinions, keep it to yourselves...

    this forums are for asking questions not deciding who has what that is good or bad, we can say is it fake, cause you don't want that... but what's good or bad... what book can I open, which would say this rifle is bad or good...

    it would have been good if the stock wasn't that way, meaning it's not good... why would any admin ever let a post like this be posted still amazes me... it OUT RIGHT DEGRADES THE OWNER'S PROPERTY... and some might say he just said something, but false statements have ruined many things in history that much we know...

    keep your freakin opinions to yourselves....


    keep your freakin opinions to yourselves.....



    do i need to repeat again =)




    alex



    "why would any admin ever let a post like this be posted still amazes me..."

    Well Alex, so that people can exchange ideas and show examples of what is and is not the appropriate way to handle a collectible firearm. You have singlehandedly managed to blow this post way out of proportion. Also, I don't sit and watch the computer 24/7, if I did I might have managed to keep you from making such a fool of yourself. Please, in the future, be more careful with your posts.

  24. #24
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    TP ; my hat's off to you. This stuff is priceless !. All I need to do is read your posts and not the manifesto(s).

  25. #25
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    Default i think it's a mistake

    i think it's a mistake saying price was over current value, no one here has any authority to say what current value is, fact is the gun had many pictures for people to see what they were buying, the fact that some continue to say nearly every rifle sold that is not 100% original shape or form is moot. value is set by what people will pay for an item. fact is this is about the average price paid for a rifle thats not 100% original condition. people scoff at the 100% original items getting over $2000. they say they paid too much there too. i see value at what current market price is, and gunbroker and auction arms are setting the value, not the people here who arent willing to pay those prices. i see no value in boardmembers opinions as to value, as i am sure when they sell their rifles, they wont sell them for the "value" they say they are worth here, but rather the value thay can actually obtain for the rifle.

  26. #26
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    Jeeze, big deal! Early, all-matched GEW98, sanded stock, no blue, $780. I wouldn't pay that for it unless I really wanted it, but somebody did, and there was no intent to deceive the buyer that I saw, so what's all the hubbub, bub?

  27. #27
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    This thread is a hoot! It's not every day you get to see such a monumental meltdown and gush of verbal diarrhea! Thanks alex!

    FACT: Many members opine that the auction rifle is sanded and has the bluing chemically removed. These members collectively own hundreds of unaltered Gew98's, and have decades of collective experience with Gew98's.

    It's hard to fathom that such a wealth of collective experience is wrong on this matter.



    FACT: The seller of this rifle included almost 50 quality images in his auction, way more than enough to acertain the actual condition of the rifle. There are numerous "tells" that point to this rifle being sanded and un-blued----way too many to list.




    Quote Originally Posted by 007alex View Post
    .....but I am right and that's that =)......
    Spoken like an open-minded student, ready and willing to learn from his peers!

  28. #28

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    I don't have anything to contribute to this tread but just wanted to say it's awful to see such acrimony.
    The correct abbreviation for reproduction is REPRO NOT REPO!

    It's a TURRET Press NOT a TURRENT Press!

    Disrespect is not a verb!

  29. #29

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    Okay, that's it. This is closed.

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