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the war on cash

13K views 128 replies 35 participants last post by  IamElmerJFudd 
#1 · (Edited)
I don' want this to turn into a conspiracy thread, there is a real effort to reduce the amount of cash in circulation for control purposes and there is a real marketing effort to make buying and selling more convenient by using digital devices. They are two separate things, both cash and digital/ cell phone/ debit or credit card / electronic online transfers have legitimate advantages and obvious and hidden disadvantages, for the buyer , for the seller, and for governments.

Most people imho don't really think about it a whole lot.. most folks just go with the convenience and don't question it, a lot of folks don't even carry cash anymore.. many stores , if the power goes out, or the internet goes down, just close instead of staying open and taking cash for goods. When I shop on Amazon or some other online stores when I check out I get a little box asking me if I want to share the fact I bought my favorite and hard to find cream rinse for my hair with all my friends on facebook , and I am not even on facebook .. I'm old fashioned.. I send formal hand written notes to all my friends when I buy cream rinse, like we all did back in a more gentile time before the internet and data mining. Back then only the post office monetized my shopping habits by selling me stamps to send all my formal handwritten notices to my friends bragging about my latest purchases of breakfast cereal and toilet paper. I used to use a 10 star rating system to express my joy and satisfaction at my latest toothbrush.. but alas, now I am restricted to a mere 5 star rating system that cannot possibly full express the nuances of my happiness or displeasure ( and what does it tell a child today, when a Teacher merely gives one gold star for the child's best effort? kids know what a one star rating means ).

Anyway I digress, Negative interest rates to make it cheaper for governments to borrow gadzillions of dollars affordably.

Over night changing the currency http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/18/news/india/india-cash-ban-explainer/ http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-08/how-cash-crisis-greece-affecting-ordinary-people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenisation_and_Economic_Empowerment_Act https://www.theindependent.co.zw/2016/06/17/alternative-solutions-liquidity-cash-crisis/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ially-removes-local-currency-from-circulation
https://zimnews.net/zimbabwe-money-crises-starts/

here in the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_denominations_of_United_States_currency
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-plot-to-kill-the-100-bill-1455667926
http://www.wsj.com/articles/end-the-100-bill-uncle-sam-says-no-1466155982 for the time being, however the EU will stop issuing the 500 euro note in 2018 .. so this does as some traction ..

you could wake up one morning and find you have a deadline to turn in your $100 bills for smaller denominations. Already some stores and businesses have stopped taking cash altogether http://theconversation.com/if-cash-is-king-how-can-stores-refuse-to-take-your-dollars-63516

Like gun control, cash control isn't about controlling cash. it isn't impossible for it to happen here http://www.friesian.com/notes.htm In fact we have changed our currency 6 times , some with mandatory turn in and exchange dates after which they were no longer legal currency.

Technically our paper money is good for all debts public and private.. but as I pointed out, some businesses just don't take them any more.

Keeping a stash of cash at home under the mattress is not risk free from currency change.
 
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#2 ·
There's not going to be a cashless society in the US.

How will the .gov/politicians get and give bribes? How will ransoms get paid? How will people get their drugs?

The point being, there will always be transactions where someone doesn't want it traced, for whatever reason. People being people will come up their own currency outside of the electronic realm.

Cash is still king and always will be.
 
#14 ·
Cash is a nuisance. Even tiny transactions stick you with worthless change to drag around into combat.
I can't imagine that any respectable bribe or ransom or drug buy can still be done in cash. You've seen those photos on Mexican Mafia cash houses where even the space behind the drywall is loaded with bundles of cash. The international banking system is much more efficient and for the most part anonymous. The few news items you see are trivial window dressing to convince the sheeple that something is being done.

I for one don't much care about my purchases being tracked, although I do use supermarket club card ID that belongs to about 20 people at an old employer who gave a fake name and the work phone.

I think Bitcoin is a scam. When there was 1 to 1 parity with a dollar (or even a euro) it might have been legit, but the swings changes that.

If The Man wants me he won't need an excuse, anyway.
 
#3 ·
I'm sure their will be. the question then, Is how do you acquire it/ earn it/ trade for this alternative currency?.. and how do you spend it? How do you determine it's worth? Where do you get it.. which is all beside the point

The point is most folks have some cash, some preppers have a stash of cash, what happens if the government declares it worthless, and the government is the only avenue to redeem it for the new recognized official currency?
 
#7 ·
that is a little limited for everyday use, barter has it's place.. but the stuff that has happened for centuries usually had more or less fixed value per unit of trade, so many cowry shells would get you a flint spear, so many top grade buckskins would get you a musket.. going to a gun show in the mid 1700's you needed to know how many pack animals to load with the number of buckskin you needed to bring to get the AR-1 of the day.
 
#8 ·
one of the things that concern me .. is simply how easy some real BS gets into the system and causes some folks to prepare in some highly ineffective ways

Some folks are presumably buying copper bullion as a prep, I say this because some folks are definitely selling copper bullion for whatever purpose... here is the chart on copper http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/copper/all/ hit an all time high of around $4.50 a pound a few years back , about twice the current spot price. Folks are selling copper bullion https://www.goldenstatemint.com/1-oz-copper-rounds-bars/ one ounce rounds for a buck, a buck+ an ounce, that's $16+ a pound, almost 4 times it's all time high. All time high for silver for example was around $50 and ounce currently about $16.50 don't think anybody would buy it right now for $150.00-$200.00 an ounce.. If you want copper . there are 145 copper pennies in a pound about a $1.45 face value , about $2.65 spot price for a pound. even the new zinc pennies are worth 0.7 cents each $1.25 a pound.

Things that make you go "hmmmmmm"
So, since it's a big news story now with India .. I thought, start a thread, and see where folk's heads are at in a "hope for the best prepare for the worst" Survival Forum discussion. or not .. whatever
 
#19 ·
I hadn't thought of calling pure copper bullion, but I do some casting and bronze is something like 88% copper, then zinc to lower the melt temp, and Tin, small amt of lead and you get a "Gunmetal Bronze." Grey without polishing out of the mold and almost gold when polished- a nice art Bronze. Brass is straight 90% copper and 10% tin.
I used to take scrap copper when I was an electrician to the best paying scrapyard in this area and sometimes get $3 a lb. They call electrical wire EC for electrical contractors wire, and it must be pure-or bullion-as you say. The EC brought in the best price per lb.
I needed some to make a casting and called the same scrapyard and they wanted $17 per lb. I don't know what the spot was then but I looked up copper on the net and bought 4- 5lbBars- and it had the same appearance as a gold or silver bar- a design with the refineries mark and marked 99.999 % copper. I don't remember exactly what it cost but it was comparable to the $17, except MORE. With copper spot price being waaay less than the stamped bars. I can't see us using copper bars for $$,
Then I looked up what the first European/Americans used for $$ after they sailed here to 1st Colony, where wampum was made by Indians and the value of that was the time it took to make small round's of shell with a hole in the center.
The Settlers had no way to earn European silver money here and in a short time ran out of European money to send back with returning ships to buy goods from Europe. Copper was mentioned as a metal that Indians and settlers were able to occasionally find nuggets of or trade for. It must have been hard to find copper. They picked one person to tool their coins-pound the copper flat-however he did it the person who made the coins could keep one for every ten he made as payment. And they used a system of those first made coins, wampum, and barter. Like we started out in a economic depression, until we had stuff to sell.


one of the things that concern me .. is simply how easy some real BS gets into the system and causes some folks to prepare in some highly ineffective ways

Some folks are presumably buying copper bullion as a prep, I say this because some folks are definitely selling copper bullion for whatever purpose... here is the chart on copper http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/copper/all/ hit an all time high of around $4.50 a pound a few years back , about twice the current spot price. Folks are selling copper bullion https://www.goldenstatemint.com/1-oz-copper-rounds-bars/ one ounce rounds for a buck, a buck+ an ounce, that's $16+ a pound, almost 4 times it's all time high. All time high for silver for example was around $50 and ounce currently about $16.50 don't think anybody would buy it right now for $150.00-$200.00 an ounce.. If you want copper . there are 145 copper pennies in a pound about a $1.45 face value , about $2.65 spot price for a pound. even the new zinc pennies are worth 0.7 cents each $1.25 a pound.

Things that make you go "hmmmmmm"
So, since it's a big news story now with India .. I thought, start a thread, and see where folk's heads are at in a "hope for the best prepare for the worst" Survival Forum discussion. or not .. whatever
 
#9 ·
As long as micro economy's barterers use it as a place value near its face worth....
.it matters not...
what retailers, govt. says... it's valueless if your not doing business with them.

Example counterfeit 100's over seas....as it goes through the systems it's as good as real.
How long would it take to call in all or notes?
Whom would it hurt over seas?

How it effected our standing in the world if we tried to introduce BLUE to replace GREEN BACKS...
First with world trade....then others countries doing the same...to get back at us...

AN ECONOMIC WORLD DEPRESSION WOULD GET EVERY ONE, in trade, savings, worth, and REAL value of commence unhinged..........TIME TO DO IT......NOT ENOUGH.......EXCEPTENCE WOULDNT HAVE A CHANCE!


No need to worry about this till all can play on the same electronic field of cashless existence!

Cash, minerals, guns ammo, supplies food shelter water...may not be bought with PAPER...
when other needs are present in bartering trading or exchanging comities......even gold silver may not shine as bright.....
 
#10 · (Edited)
DK hmm yes and no .. A local use of a once national currency might work on a limited basis in a total shtf .. but as we see in India, and Zimbabwe, and every time we have changed currency here or in any of the countries of the former USSR when they started up their own currencies or when the EURO was introduced.. the country however the borders or government might have changed , nation government continued to exist and levied and collected taxes sometimes they will exchange the old currency for the new at a reasonable rate, sometimes not.. and however well it might work locally.. a lot of things simply aren't made locally and have to come from the next town or county or state over the hill or across the river, and they will want something useful to them.

I am always fascinated when folks talk of barter.. barter with what? what do you have that will be worth something to somebody that has what you want? and how much of it do you have? And if it is basic necessities that everybody needs what if somebody else is offering the same but for a better deal? And if it is something you need to stay alive, that everybody needs to stay alive , that sounds like something that can be used up, like food or medicine .. or even ammo.. it is something that gets expended and then it is no more.. how do you tell if you have enough, much less extra to get you thru the shtf or crisis and how much extra you have to trade, and how do you know how long the crisis will last? I am seriously asking folks who are pro barter , what do you have that you plan on bartering with and can you literally make a living with it, or make a living with it plus what you have stocked up and for how long?

the other category of valuable thing is something that can be used with people outside the group that accepts whatever local currency is agreed upon or can be used with outsiders vecause they need it to get stuff from yet other outsiders .

When folks say barter ... what kind of stuff do the folks that say barter have that would be worth something to other people who have what you want? Is it something you can make? or grow? or find? or mine? and how much of it do you have? and what do you do when it runs out?

I have a pretty large supply of pool shock . I can make thousands of gallons of chlorine bleach at your standard store bought strength, for example.. folks will need it for water purification and for disinfecting sooner or later.. I would call that a trade item for bartering.. I have boxes and boxes of Harbor Freight quality common hand tools hammers saws wrenches above and beyond my own needs, same with knives. I have the proper chemicals in a form that I can literally order them and get them thru the mail because unmixed/ unprocessed they are stable and safe to make proper primers berdan and boxer.. just need the expended primer and I can remanufacture it , and of course cast bullets and if you have the right brass I can make serviceable ammo from salvaged powder and even some salvaged primers of any caliber in about 25 common calibers, as long as there is ammo that nobody can use or there is no demand for, I can make ammo in calibers they want. I can find and make quite a bit of herbal medicines and wildcrafted food as well as smaller amounts of stuff I grow and use myself that will be excess or deliberately grown for trade, that I now give way to friends neighbors and the Church .. and having the trees and bushes that produce food, in many cases I can supply not just seeds that will breed true but cloned or otherwise propagated food plants. I get my stock of fish hooks in bulk (http://www.jannsnetcraft.com/jig-hooks/812330.aspx and other places less than a penny a piece) and next I am getting the proper gear tools and components to make proper professional snares. http://www.fntpost.com/Categories/Trapping/Snares+Slides+and+Supplies/Tools+for+Snaring/ http://www.fntpost.com/Categories/Trapping/Snares+Slides+and+Supplies/Cable/ http://www.fntpost.com/Categories/T...Supplies/Snare+Swivels,+Washers+Tie-Off+Ends/ you get the idea ..you can get a lot in a foot locker

That is the kind of stuff that I consider trade goods , that I can trade for something I might need locally. It's not a full list, but if dollars become worthless or if dollars have to be turned in for new currency with the implied loss of value. Nations don't put whole countries thru the turmoil and inconvenience like they are doing with India right now http://fortune.com/2016/11/24/india-rupee-currency-ban-forex/
https://www.geo.tv/latest/121475-Currency-crisis-deepens-in-India-70-dead-in-16-days a lakh is 100,000 rupee about $1,500 The average annual income in India is about 600-650 dollars. So a lakh is two, two and a half years average wages.

People are losing a lot of purchasing power and the government is covering a lot of debt and recovering a lot of unpaid taxes. A lot of times if a government fails and a new government takes it's place they have little reason to assume either the debts or honor the old governments currency, and folks are just bankrupt if their wealth in currency or in the banks is inflated into nothingness .. But there is a new government, new laws, new taxes , new official currency. Those that have something to sell or exchange or a job can make the new money, but any savings in the old currency are worthless.
 
#47 · (Edited)
I am always fascinated when folks talk of barter.

DK hmm yes and no .. A local use of a once national currency might work on a limited basis in a total shtf .. but as we see in India, and Zimbabwe, and every time we have changed currency here or in any of the countries of the former USSR when they started up their own currencies or when the EURO was introduced.. the country however the borders or government might have changed , nation government continued to exist and levied and collected taxes sometimes they will exchange the old currency for the new at a reasonable rate, sometimes not.. and however well it might work locally.. a lot of things simply aren't made locally and have to come from the next town or county or state over the hill or across the river, and they will want something useful to them.

I am always fascinated when folks talk of barter.. barter with what? what do you have that will be worth something to somebody that has what you want? and how much of it do you have? And if it is basic necessities that everybody needs what if somebody else is offering the same but for a better deal? And if it is something you need to stay alive, that everybody needs to stay alive , that sounds like something that can be used up, like food or medicine .. or even ammo.. it is something that gets expended and then it is no more.. how do you tell if you have enough, much less extra to get you thru the shtf or crisis and how much extra you have to trade, and how do you know how long the crisis will last? I am seriously asking folks who are pro barter , what do you have that you plan on bartering with and can you literally make a living with it, or make a living with it plus what you have stocked up and for how long?

the other category of valuable thing is something that can be used with people outside the group that accepts whatever local currency is agreed upon or can be used with outsiders vecause they need it to get stuff from yet other outsiders .

When folks say barter ... what kind of stuff do the folks that say barter have that would be worth something to other people who have what you want? Is it something you can make? or grow? or find? or mine? and how much of it do you have? and what do you do when it runs out?

I have a pretty large supply of pool shock . I can make thousands of gallons of chlorine bleach at your standard store bought strength, for example.. folks will need it for water purification and for disinfecting sooner or later.. I would call that a trade item for bartering.. I have boxes and boxes of Harbor Freight quality common hand tools hammers saws wrenches above and beyond my own needs, same with knives. I have the proper chemicals in a form that I can literally order them and get them thru the mail because unmixed/ unprocessed they are stable and safe to make proper primers berdan and boxer.. just need the expended primer and I can remanufacture it , and of course cast bullets and if you have the right brass I can make serviceable ammo from salvaged powder and even some salvaged primers of any caliber in about 25 common calibers, as long as there is ammo that nobody can use or there is no demand for, I can make ammo in calibers they want. I can find and make quite a bit of herbal medicines and wildcrafted food as well as smaller amounts of stuff I grow and use myself that will be excess or deliberately grown for trade, that I now give way to friends neighbors and the Church .. and having the trees and bushes that produce food, in many cases I can supply not just seeds that will breed true but cloned or otherwise propagated food plants. I get my stock of fish hooks in bulk (http://www.jannsnetcraft.com/jig-hooks/812330.aspx and other places less than a penny a piece) and next I am getting the proper gear tools and components to make proper professional snares. http://www.fntpost.com/Categories/Trapping/Snares+Slides+and+Supplies/Tools+for+Snaring/ http://www.fntpost.com/Categories/Trapping/Snares+Slides+and+Supplies/Cable/ http://www.fntpost.com/Categories/T...Supplies/Snare+Swivels,+Washers+Tie-Off+Ends/ you get the idea ..you can get a lot in a foot locker

That is the kind of stuff that I consider trade goods , that I can trade for something I might need locally. It's not a full list, but if dollars become worthless or if dollars have to be turned in for new currency with the implied loss of value. Nations don't put whole countries thru the turmoil and inconvenience like they are doing with India right now http://fortune.com/2016/11/24/india-rupee-currency-ban-forex/
https://www.geo.tv/latest/121475-Currency-crisis-deepens-in-India-70-dead-in-16-days a lakh is 100,000 rupee about $1,500 The average annual income in India is about 600-650 dollars. So a lakh is two, two and a half years average wages.

People are losing a lot of purchasing power and the government is covering a lot of debt and recovering a lot of unpaid taxes. A lot of times if a government fails and a new government takes it's place they have little reason to assume either the debts or honor the old governments currency, and folks are just bankrupt if their wealth in currency or in the banks is inflated into nothingness .. But there is a new government, new laws, new taxes , new official currency. Those that have something to sell or exchange or a job can make the new money, but any savings in the old currency are worthless.
I think in a barter society perhaps I could barter my expertise as an electrician/plumber/mechanic for some food stuff that you have or some expertise that you may have - doctor/dentist/nurse etc.
On another tack and without becoming paranoid, I do note with interest that when the sh*t hits the economic fan, you are limited on your ATM cash withdrawals. Example Greece, Cyprus, Zimbabwe and most recently India. Perhaps it isn't such a bad idea to have a bit of cash money stashed away under the bed?
 
#11 ·
here is some of the latest on Venezuela https://mishtalk.com/2016/11/24/venezuela-currency-loses-45-this-month-as-hyperinflation-escalates/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/markets/2016/08/27/doomsday-inevitable-venezuela/89335716/

https://www.thenation.com/article/why-is-venezuela-in-crisis/

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/21/world/americas/venezuela-oil-economy.html?_r=0

here is the take way, especially for preppers/ folks preparing for shtf .. as bad as it is the government is still intact. there are still police and taxes and laws , in fact there are more laws just trying to keep a lid on things/ maintain some semblance of civil order... this is far more often the case than the lawless wild west shtf scenario I see far more often on survival forums as how it will be..

The other take away that applies here in spades is that Venezuela gets 80% of it's operating money , both for government and to pay for imports that they don't make locally from one single commodity, Oil. Nobody wants anything else that they have, if you look at it from a barter perspective. And that is sort of how you have to look at it.. the rest the world wants dollars for their goods.. they don't want your VCR collection or your 8 tracks or guns or salt and pepper shaker collection or your beanie babies.. they want dollars or gold or oil , something they can use/ spend for stuff they want that Venezuela doesn't produce .

this has been going on and getting continually worse for decades now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela

Their systems are intact.. it just that 80% of the population can't afford or can't find the basics at any price. If you need dollars for certain government approved categories of things, or belong to certain government subsidized groups you can get a dollar for 10 bolivars .. when I say a dollar I mean what a dollar will buy outside of the country , so you can import it or pay for your kids education abroad, if you are not part of the right group or purpose you can't buy dollars at the official rate you have to get them at the black market rate of a couple thousand bolivars to the dollar... sometimes there are three rates sometimes two and the rates and categories change almost monthly .. the reason the government can do this is they control and get the proceeds for everything the country exports like oil. Private industry is almost nonexistent. Make no mistake, a country , an economy, can totally collapse and still have a government totally in control. And the basic control mechanism is the money and the police/ military. And that government can be both the primary reason for the collapse and still not be able to provide even the most basic necessities of life like Clean water or food. In fact as often as not, the primary driver for out of control inflation is the constant pay raises for the military/ police to ensure their loyalty and how they spend their comparatively generous pay buying up the subsidized basics and reselling them on the black market.

Look at Syria, somebody claims to be in charge of every inch of that country , some places the government, some places ISIS, some places this or that rebel group , and each has some degree of international support .. a supply chain of greater or lesser efficacy that does not run on bartering chickens. Folks leave and become refuges, most of them pay the equivalent of two years wages in hard currency, mostly euros out of Syria , two years local wages is about what is costs for a Coyote to bring you to the US from South America or a snakehead to smuggle you into the US from China or Asia, usually in dollars. But they also take gold or antiquities .. or especially gold antiquities, they don't do it for a brick of 22's.
 
#12 ·
Agree.....roulette wheel of possibilities, sernero's......and

its prepaying with preps in place before the fall that will make you safer and more content in knowing you did some things right over shadowing things not thought of or followed through on......

These same preps will make us targets ...too..
GUNS, AMMO PROTECTIVE SHELTER, CLEAN WATER, FOOD......,
 
#13 ·
the worst thing regarding cash is that it's the governments money, not the peoples. YOU pay tax on virtually every transaction since govt has tight control over business.
Print private cash, no tax, trick is getting people to accept it as valuable. The amount of $$$ we currently give away to govt is astronomical, take it back and adopt private cash.
Once it's trading on the market it will be accepted. Crazy, but why? Save us $1000's a year.
Govt would love to eliminate cash and tax every transaction, make us slaves to the system, the machine
 
#15 ·
In this neck of the woods cash carry, work done, cars fixed....cash TALKS with reduced prices...cards tax full prices looser in reality....weather they pay the tax's is up to them, HAND SHAK INSTEAD OF RECIETS!
My motto...."What's in your pocket?"
 
#18 ·
Way back when, my budget for lunch was 25 cents. I could buy a hot dog, French fries and a coke for that much money. Occasionally, I would spend a dime more and get a milk shake instead of a coke. Today, that same lunch costs a LOT more in today's paper or plastic money. The "reason" according to the talking heads, is "inflation". That is only a little true. A bigger truth is that "way back when" I bought that 25 cent lunch, I paid for it with "real" money, a 90% SILVER 25 cent coin. Then US coins were real wealth because they were made of rare and valuable material, silver for most coins of a dollar or less in value. Today, US coins are made of much more common and near valueless metals. But even that, is not the real reason for inflation. The true truth about inflation, is that it is a product of the Federal Reserve Bank system, which has never been audited in it's more than 100 years of existance and represents a very heavy and very hidden tax.:)
 
#20 · (Edited)
Ike are you familiar with this web site? http://www.coinflation.com/ about half way down the page they list all the old US silver coins and the current worth of their metal content . A quarter is currently worth $2.97 and usually sells for $3.10-$3.20 apiece retail just for the silver in it, assuming no numismatic value. Some folks buy what is called pre 1964 90% silver junk coins ( junk only means no special numismatic value regardless of condition .. junk silver coins can be anything from a slick [ date not readable] to BU [brilliant uncirculated] and are valued only for their silver content) to use as "money"/ barter material come shtf.

The real shame though is the silver Dime, it is worth $1.20, if we made a silver dollar today it would have to be 25% smaller than a Dime.

BUT here is the real shocker.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage are you familiar with Seigniorage ? Seigniorage is the profit the government makes between the cost of making a coin or paper bill and it's face value it spends at. Read the link. The metal to make a modern quarter is worth three and a half cents and it costs about 3 cents to make .. so 6-7 cents .. the government pockets the 18-19 cents profit.. detail in the link , to be fair you also have to consider the cost of shipping the money to a bank , but with 4000 quarters to a "Bag" "Bags" hold $1000 face value of coins and weights about 55 pounds the per quarter shipping cost, even in an Armored Car with armed guards is not even a penny about 38 bags a ton at $40 a bag ( at a penny a quarter) is $1,520 a ton , that should cover shipping nicely Armored Car can carry what 4 or 5 tons maybe?
 
#23 ·
Boys and Girls...you lose cash and you lose privacy. If you want to be controlled
and regulated...go to plastic. If its none of governments business what you do
with your money (legally ..not talking crime), then you cherish liberty and you best
fight the move to plastic.

The less government is in your lives...the better you will be.
 
#24 ·
Amen and God Bless you milprileb, oops I meant a very secular +1
 
#25 ·
Speaking as someone who works in this area of financial transactions, what the government is worried about is not cash nearly so much as digital transactions, and that from the standpoint of hackers and electronic theft of id information and accessing financial accounts electronically. The "ease" of digital transactions pushed by the banks (i.e. your debit card) has turned into a national financial nightmare. As more and more people move back to cash and checks to avoid ID theft, cash is not going to disappear in anyone's future. Digital "money" has been shown to be extremely vulnerable. If people continue to move away from it and, in your scenario, the government gets rid of cash, how will consumers continue to make purchases? No my friend, currency is not going away. Currency will not go away unless and until someone somewhere "hack-proofs" digital financial transactions. And that is nowhere on the horizon.
 
#26 ·
Ammoup.. you make a good point, but remember we are talking high inflation rates as well as the boner the Indian Government pulled of trying to switch currency with only days to make the exchange and insufficient new bills to cover the action.. just losing 20 or 30% of ones savings could be a crisis for some much less the 435% inflation rate Venezuela took this month.. even Russia 50% inflation that basically happened in a week when sanctions were announced would be a personal disaster for anybody living paycheck to paycheck ..

Plenty of scenarios fall under this general category and they all amount to serious hardship with everything in the world still merrily humming along for some folks... it could be very much like losing your job, but still having to go to work everyday.
 
#27 ·
Copper always goes up in war time - munitions use a lot of copper. It dropped shortly after WWII, rose during our Korean conflict, went crazy after the gold standard was taken away until the end in VietNam, and rose again during our actions in the Mideast.
I am not saying to sell your horded pre 1982 pennies, but buying large amounts of copper bars is not wise. Car emblems used to go into the melting pot, now most are plastic or stamped. Original cast emblems are worth much more than scrap, especially from muscle cars. Cast aluminum can be recast easiely as can cast iron - if we ever start building again, these are what will rise in value.
 
#28 ·
For me, and keep in mind I have hundreds of pounds of lead, base metals investing, hoping for a price rise, just takes up too much room and weights too much.. I can see certain allots for certain purposes , like leaf springs for knives and old files for firesteel .. but just scrap for scraps sake .. there will always be enough around for my needs . we had a thread on here a couple years back about using aluminum cans for casting parts .. the problem with that is there are many kinds of aluminum , but basically just two categories aluminum alloy for drawing, and aluminum alloys for casting, neither does the other job well. Alloys or silver and gold and the related purities is also incredibly important to it worth , either as an investment or for bartering .. and to complicate things, Gold and Silver do not even use the avoirdupois weight system they use troy weight 12 ounces to the pound and the pounces are bigger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_weight it is not unheard of , even now in good/ normal times, on places like ebay.. either out of the sellers ignorance or deliberate intention to defraud to sell the lighter avoirdupois ounce of precious metal at the price of the heavier troy ounce.
 
#29 ·
I've got to admit that I skipped/glanced at the posts, however, I just finished reading Orson Wells' "Homage to Catalena" where he stated that durring the uprising in Barcelona small denomination coins had become scarce. That created the problem of a shoper not being able to buy or wanting to buy enough items to use a large coin and the shop keeper not being able to make change. Save small gold/silver coins!
On another note, I once met an American Communist that was holding Titanium to sell if war between US and USSR broke out; he'd sell to the US at high prices. Well, as we know, the USSR fell apart and their titanium ore was on the open market to where it is almost given away! Titanium toothpick anyone?
 
#32 ·
:)
 
#34 ·
And....crickets.

This is what she does, an agent provocateur who will entertain you with views on everything from agriculture to zoology.
Usually with War & Peace sized diatribes.

But not a damned thing of useful substance...
Bless her heart.
 
#38 ·
spoke too soon .. but got the war and peace thing right :) some useful things take more than a bumper sticker and some I had already posted , but repeated just for you .. you contribute so much you are worth it.

Highly recommend folks take gewhere's sage advice to heart and follow each of his well thought out survival tips ;)
 
#36 ·
The theme being the war on cash. Kind of alludes to making our cash worth less. I get a feeling that there is a lot less Gold in Ft Knox than thought, that the FED is multinational. I WONDER and have no real grasp I can be sure is right on HOW so many credit card companies send me offers every month where they PAY ME like $200 to get their card. Assuming a lot of people who want to LOOK like they have money more than have it jump on all the free credit accounts they can get paid to take and purchase what they will never pay in full for:
Add that we have built a port on the West Coast that can Unload the largest container ship ever made that comes to America from China FULL, and returns empty-I wonder WHY a country that we are told we owe 18 billion or more dollars to would keep sending stuff if they weren't getting paid?? That somehow the Billions we owe is to ourselves:
That there are new housing tracts being built here where 1/4 Mil is an average for a house on a LOT with a house next door. I am puzzled at how anyone can afford to buy one-except that once again Banks are loaning money to people that they know won't be able to pay.
And I see that harry Reid's son is a wheel in a company trying to sell state lands to China.
The war on cash-perhaps the same as war on our economy-one step closer to war with weapons.
Because our anti constitutional reps in both houses are in both parties and work for the same lobbyists- our government has almost been bought by the same thinking people that think we are as big as the ocean and the ocean is too big to be polluted.
The Pres promised China if we could not pay our bill we would give them land here in payment. There is a war on the value of the American Dollar and that is a prellude to sheeple GIVING away a country. From the white house down we are awash with traitors.
The NYS Militia, all farmers and citizens of the newly declared United States were told to be at Militia meetings and fights or be hanged or hide in Canada. Cong. Lee of the 1st Congress said all farmers on the frontier were members of the US Militia.
Today- if the need for boots on the ground to defend the USA became a must that required calling to arms the young men-and women- would anymore than a handful show up?
Banks in other western countries are telling their depositors they can not have the money they deposited except in small quantities.
While installing 3 internet hookups in each classroom of America as per Al Gores idea I was met by a Red Chinese HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER- He put the propoganda rush on me that Red China had a form of Government far superior to ours- and they had NO CRIME. He's telling this crap to high school kids.
The war on cash is more than a war on bulky coins and printing paper and streamlining our banking and puchasing and taxing system.
Our President finally admitted he's a Muslim, and he met the German Chancellor who told the Syrrians to all come to Germany.
She's tossing out-deporting another 100,000Muslims and I have no doubt they will be heading this way.
We are letting the army of Invadors just come in and paying them, but may have to do away with Social Security to do it.
War on cash-basicly paying a people who have sworn to destroy us come here.
Destroying our RR system and scrapping the track was the stupidest thing a nation dependant on fuel oil could do.
And WE destroyed our steel mills by selling the WWII Ghost Fleet to the countries we rebuilt with brand new up to date steel mills.
War on cash is a war on our economy is the 1st step in a war to destroy and take over us. And it is complicated because I believe every comment made is true here..
 
#41 · (Edited)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_reserves_of_China
China holds about 2 trillion dollars of our debt. mostly in US Treasuries and bonds not 18 billion

We buy about half a trillion dollars of Chinese stuff and year and they buy about 120 billion dollars of our stuff a year .. mostly because their average income per person is only about $14,000-$15,000 a year while ours is like $54,000 .. they end up with a couple trillion dollars and they have to do something with them so they buy US treasuries and get a pathetically low interest on their investment https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-china-trade-deficit-causes-effects-and-solutions-3306277 https://www.treasury.gov/resource-c...interest-rates/Pages/TextView.aspx?data=yield

same interest rates US citizens and investors get same as the Japanese get US investors hold about 10 Trillion dollars of our own debt , every pension fund hedge fund in America buys them.. you might have some yourself if you have a mutual fund or a 401k we don't owe them like an outstanding debt... they have excess dollars from trade and they can do whatever they want with them spend them invest them anywhere they want, it helps us most if they invest in our bonds .. best international investment in the world in many folks opinion and by many metrics is US Government Bonds and Treasuries .

They can sell them and get their dollars back at time they want. World wants more than we sell . fortunately for the world our congress wants to spend more than they take in in taxes so we can sell more bonds every year to make up the difference, the alternative is higher taxes or less spending by Congress .. it's kind of bad for us.. it's our tax dollars that pays the interest to China Japan the California teachers union the Alabama state workers pension fund

but being in Congress is very stressful and most Americans , based on our private debt, understand how relaxing retail therapy can be. ask anybody here, do you need 100 firearms? .. no.. but do you want 101 firearms? yes and where do they come from?.. why from all over the world of course, and don't we all wish we could get more Chinese ammo? oh hell yeah.
 
#37 ·
If you are asking about government policy, anything we do is going to be painful.. it will be more painful if we wait and keep building debt with government deficits .. but personal debt is part of this .. as far as eventually the system collapsing, if we changed policy now, balanced the budget by cutting spending , preferably the military size and government salaries and foreign wars .. lifted some restrictions on exporting oil and nat gas and just getting the public behind the basic idea that if they wan American jobs, especially manufacturing then it iis up to the people to buy American made stuff to cut the balance of trade deficit .. maybe a little off the top means testing for SSI, not getting SSI would not hurt folks making over a million a year bring back the estate tax .. tax overseas profits based on how they are spent stateside with very low low taxes if spent f infrastructure and job creation do the $15 minimum wage to make as many minimum wage workers ineligible for government benefits .. we literally have thousands of M1 Abrams we don't want http://www.military.com/daily-news/...n-buys-abrams-tanks-the-army-doesnt-want.html but because the mean jobs in key districts ...

I could go on... but nothing I can do but write my congressman ...I doubt much will change certainly not enough

So .. I recommend prepping.. if you read my posts in this thread about having meaningful but inexpensive things to trade with , just some things I am doing.. I got solar electricity.. I plan on charging folks cell phones and pads and notebooks.. there may not be internet or phone service , but their might be, bit if their isn't there are still folks with lots of music DVD's games books ever survival how to's on their hard drives . I have every mother earth news on CD's .. personal electronic devices they are still useful for things other than phone calls and internet..
any way.. I have useful stuff I can trade with and I have gold with a 3200 years track record and silver with a 2800 year track record of preserving wealth to better times.. even the dark ages ended at some point any new government will have to have collateral and /or reserves until their new currency proves reliable i'd bet what little gold and silver I have on a new government's currency so long as it resembled the ideals of the old government, I wouldn't be impressed if it continued the practices ..

Folks say they are going to barter.. that's great, but I asked with what? what have they set aside for trade that they don't need yet something everybody will want.. extra what? I got 79 cents 2 dram bottles with an eyedropper in quantity atnd can make all the fresh commercial strength chlorine bleach .. two drops to a quart and 74 drops to a dram . I can trade bleach so you can drink the water for food or jewelry and refills

I have an answer to "with what" for myself, snares , knives , tools , fish hooks ( cost me less than a penny apiece), wild crafted food, herbal medicines , reloaded ammo ,, I can make nets .. fish nets, bird nets, real snares, I have my answers to trade with what other people will need ,, my problem is what will they have to trade with . the family silver, silverware, jewelry, old tools and knives .. stuff I can trade locally .. stuff I can use thru the blackmarket, stuff I can trade for a hard currency, and if push comes to shove stuff I can pay that people who assist people to a more stable country will accept.

That all I am saying. whatever the calamity or why .. I plan on bartering and I prep by having stuff to barter .. if money becomes worthless I have the stuff that has been a store of wealth for thousand of years thru the collapse of empires and whole civilizations , mush less a mere national government or an economy. I plan to barter and I prep to barter.. I train to barter at flea markets, craft shows and gunshows.. not just from the customer side, but from the vendor side where the power is unequal in my favor.

A lot of folks don't think it can happen here .. it was always such a nice quite country, nothing bad ever happened here in this country .. I mean neighborhood .. how many times have you heard that on the news from startled and fearful neighbors who can't believe horror happened on their block. Who, just 8 years ago couldn't believe a third or even half the houses on their block were abandoned and in foreclosure that their business or factory was shut down... their city or county or pension fund blew up and went bankrupt. or their bank failed or their 401k collapsed

hey.. it's just a discussion of one type of possible shtf .. it's a though exercise.. f folks just want to throw in a quick .. i'll barter and not think it thru past that and answer with what.. that is their business , prepping is not mandatory , prepping for an economic disaster is not mandatory .. there are all sorts of shtf you can prep for that doesn't mean being part of half the population that can't afford to eat or live indoors while the rest of the country happily goes about their business , which is basically what happens in a civl way / economic collapse , collapse of an Empire like the USSR where all sorts of former satellite countries had to rethink their currency and budget and trade and economic policies while a lot of folks slept in the subways or froze on heater grates on the sidewalk.

An failed state a bankrupt state with an intact government is far more common than most folks think .. I listed half a dozen and linked articles to show what the hardships are .. we came damn close in 2008 .. to have a fail country and no government and no economy is truly a rare thing comparatively .. the wild west kill or be killed shtf where you get to shoot strangers at 800 yards because they might be coming for you cheese and 90% of folks are dead anyway from starvation ... heck look at Syria , that has been going on for 5 years now armies and rebels and militias and major world powers all trying to kill each other and they have barely killed 500,000 out of 22 million that means a year into any decently serious SHTF there are still going to be a lot of people that are going to need toilet paper and batteries. trade and bartering and emigrating refuges and bribing and smuggling and black markets are going to happen. There are millions and millions of refugees millions more homeless and a half million dead. folks are going to need stuff.. even in the worst of all possible shtf. And worst case and you have to run across a border or two portable wealth will help get you there and set yourself up where you land.

but of course it can't happen here..
 
#39 ·
You are 100% Correct!!

I don' want this to turn into a conspiracy thread, there is a real effort to reduce the amount of cash in circulation for control purposes and there is a real marketing effort to make buying and selling more convenient by using digital devices. They are two separate things, both cash and digital/ cell phone/ debit or credit card / electronic online transfers have legitimate advantages and obvious and hidden disadvantages, for the buyer , for the seller, and for governments.

Most people imho don't really think about it a whole lot.. most folks just go with the convenience and don't question it, a lot of folks don't even carry cash anymore.. many stores , if the power goes out, or the internet goes down, just close instead of staying open and taking cash for goods. When I shop on Amazon or some other online stores when I check out I get a little box asking me if I want to share the fact I bought my favorite and hard to find cream rinse for my hair with all my friends on facebook , and I am not even on facebook .. I'm old fashioned.. I send formal hand written notes to all my friends when I buy cream rinse, like we all did back in a more gentile time before the internet and data mining. Back then only the post...
You are absolutely 100% correct when you say there is a war on cash going on right now. I am not sure if the naysayers here are illiterate ignorant, willfully ignorant, or lack the imagination to realize what would happen if cash disappeared, or if the feds issued a new currency and required that you bring in the old currency to exchange for the new currency before the old currency is declared unusable. The tax people would have a field day if it appeared you had more cash on hand than your tax filings indicate you should have. And bartering is NOT an answer. Bartering is clumsy, dificult to do, and VERY inefficient.

In any event, the federal government makes that very clear they want to get rid of cash transactions with the policies and regulations issued almost weekly. Cash is an anathema to the feds because it is untraceable and they have no way of knowing when and where it changes hands. It fuels the underground economy which means the feds don't get their "share" (read: "taxes") and that is intolerable. Earlier this year, Louisiana prohibited the use of cash in yard and garage sales, requiring all transactions be made via credit cards. They admit the reason they did that was because all that cash changing hands was not being taxed. This is not a "conspiracy theory". It is going on as we speak and I have no idea, short of gold and silver with thier intrinsic value, what to do about it.
 
#40 ·
The US government has a lot of federal held property and it was specifically for future Americans. Selling our property and natural resources is a point that has to be made and stopped. Private individuals should be able to buy property to live on, but I feel they must be citizens if they want to mine, drill for oil/water or cut timber to sell for profit.
 
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