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Thread: What Rifle is good for Caliber .308???

  1. #1

    Default What Rifle is good for Caliber .308???

    I want a new .308 rifle....what rifle would be a good bolt action or semi???? As for the price just reasonable under 500 ish..thanks thanks

  2. #2
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    There are tons of bolt guns, fewer semi's are in that price range. Around here CETMEs are about the only semi you'll find in that price range and about 20% IMO need some work to run...
    When your smiling the whole world smiles with you

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    In Milsurp, the Enfield 2A or 2A1 comes to mind. Very accurate and a great buy IMHO. We really enjoy ours.
    Now officially collecting Mosin M38s!

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    One of the gun shops I go to has a rebarreled Enfield ,not sure which model, chambered for the 7.62 NATO.

    I don't really like the looks of it though. the wood has a very dark tone, and the metal parts look like they just have some kind of black paint on them.

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    It's hard to beat the off-the-shelf accuracy of a Savage Model 110 rifle (there are many variations, but all are based upon the original 110 action). The AccuTrigger™ is pretty sweet, too. Usually they come with a decent (at best) scope in the 3-9x34mm range, but they can be fitted with any of a variety of optics. Some come with iron sights, some not. Some are heavy/bull contour, others are slender sporter contours. Some are fitted with wood stocks, others synthetic. And, you can get one at most any shop anywhere in the U.S. for $300-500 depending upon model.
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    If it has to be .308 have a look at the 'Israeli' K98 conversions.
    Great rifle in a reasonable caliber.
    Can't go wrong.
    Why, just imagine, that rifle with the Numrich Arms ZF41 scope set up.
    OK, total set up a tad over your budget, but what a rig? Awesome.

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    If you want a reliable and acceptably accurate semi, look no further than a Saiga .308. Well within your budget and you can convert it to be more "evil" without much work.

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    I agreee...the economy Savage 110, althought the cheap scopes will break you can always upgrade as time and money allow. Plus, you don't have to worry about banging it up on those hunting trips like the treasured Weatherby.

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    Skywarp made an excellent suggestion. Those had slipped my mind and I was thinking on the high-dollar side of semi-autos, which is outside your given parameter. Another sturdy rifle that you may encounter in 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester is the modified Chilean Steyr M1912/61 bolt action short rifle. It is a solid M98 Mauser and unlike most of the current Israelis, the bores are usually in excellent condition. Prices seem to be in the $225. to $300. range. Semi-autos are just relatively pricey, but you might want to get one before availability could change.

    Note: When looking for a .308 Win.-chambered weapon, avoid "Guardia Civil" M1916 carbines (basicly a M93/M95 type action) that are marked "7.62". (They were originally chambered for the 7x57mm Mauser cartridge.) Notice that they are not marked for the "NATO" cartridge. I believe that they were chambered for the 7.62x51mm "CETME" cartridge, a "lighter" round safe for them. Also, some .308 Winchester loads will exceed the chamber pressure of the 7.62x51 NATO round. Both will chamber and fire in the M1916, but that action was designed for about 38K to 40K PSI. Some .308 Win. rounds can have chamber pressure approaching 60K PSI. If you get a M1916 carbine, use appropriate light loads in it. Use your head for something other than a hat rack. DDR
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 7.62CETMEbaAR.01.jpg  
    Last edited by DudleyDR; 10-16-2008 at 05:13 PM.
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    You might find a Saiga for under 5 bills.
    I really like mine.

    видеодон

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    Sometimes you have to "make" your budget afford some things. An opportunity may present itself only once. DDR
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    Quote Originally Posted by DudleyDR View Post
    Skywarp made an excellent suggestion. Those had slipped my mind and I was thinking on the high-dollar side of semi-autos, which is outside your given parameter. Another sturdy rifle that you may encounter in 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester is the modified Chilean Steyr M1912 bolt action short rifle. It is a solid M98 Mauser and unlike most of the current Israelis, the bores are usually in excellent condition. Prices seem to be in the $225. to $300. range. Semi-autos are just relatively pricey, but you might want to get one before availability could change.

    Note: When looking for a .308 Win.-chambered weapon, avoid "Guardia Civil" M1916 carbines (basicly a M93/M95 type action) that are marked "7.62". (They were originally chambered for the 7x57mm Mauser cartridge.) Notice that they are not marked for the "NATO" cartridge. I believe that they were chambered for the 7.62x51mm "CETME" cartridge, a "lighter" round safe for them. Also, some .308 Winchester loads will exceed the chamber pressure of the 7.62x51 NATO round. Both will chamber and fire in the M1916, but that action was designed for about 38K to 40K PSI. Some .308 Win. rounds can have chamber pressure approaching 60K PSI. If you get a M1916 carbine, use appropriate light loads in it. Use your head for something other than a hat rack. DDR
    Thanks for the education DDR.

    Are the Steyr 1912s rebarrelled to 7.62 NATO, or were the chambers sleeved and bored out to 30 cal? I heard there was some erosion concerns with the barrels that were sleeved.
    Now officially collecting Mosin M38s!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken in Iowa View Post
    Thanks for the education DDR.

    Are the Steyr 1912s rebarrelled to 7.62 NATO, or were the chambers sleeved and bored out to 30 cal? I heard there was some erosion concerns with the barrels that were sleeved.
    Buy a 2 groove barrel and you're fine, those are the redone 03a3 barrels and are solid throughout. The 4 groove barrels are rebored and have the chamber insert brazed in.
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    I believe I saw an add recently for bolt action .308s from Russia; I believe they are Izmash. I do love my Savages, however. Mine are 7mmMag and 30-06, but I "need" to get a .308. Also, a 6mm and a 6.5mm just to keep a good balance. My 7mm especially is a real tackdriver. Mine came before the Accu-Trigger, so if you see a good buy on an earlier one w/o the AT don't pass on it.

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    Savage.Accu trigger for sure.You won't be sorry.

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    At this point Im going to get the savage, but whats the Accu Trigger?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Futurecollector View Post
    At this point Im going to get the savage, but whats the Accu Trigger?
    Search the Savage web site for more information. You want us to buy and shoot the thing for you, too?
    Just looking...... Membership Chair, Dormont Mt. Lebanon SC, PA. Visit us at : http://www.mdi.net/dml/

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    The Howa 1500 in .308 is great gun with a good trigger right out of the box. You can buy them in various barrel lengths and profiles. I have a 24" heavy barreled version, and the emphasis is on heavy. You would have to be a really big Mountie to take one hunting.

    I agree with the other posters that a new Savage with the Accutrigger wins hands down when it comes to value for money.

    The Saiga in .308 is also a lot of gun for the money IF you get one with a good trigger.

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    The Howa 1500 is also sold as the Weatherby Vanguard. Less than $400 at Walmart. I love mine - but the one I got is in 300 Weatherby Magnum, not a wussy .308 - but the ammo cost makes reloading mandatory.
    A very slick, uncomplicated design, and very accurate. Thanks to early complaints about the factory trigger pull Weatherby's made it easier to adjust and also lightened and made much crisper the factory setting.
    I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a sestertius in any one day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DudleyDR View Post
    Skywarp made an excellent suggestion. Those had slipped my mind and I was thinking on the high-dollar side of semi-autos, which is outside your given parameter. Another sturdy rifle that you may encounter in 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester is the modified Chilean Steyr M1912 bolt action short rifle. It is a solid M98 Mauser and unlike most of the current Israelis, the bores are usually in excellent condition. Prices seem to be in the $225. to $300. range. Semi-autos are just relatively pricey, but you might want to get one before availability could change.

    Note: When looking for a .308 Win.-chambered weapon, avoid "Guardia Civil" M1916 carbines (basicly a M93/M95 type action) that are marked "7.62". (They were originally chambered for the 7x57mm Mauser cartridge.) Notice that they are not marked for the "NATO" cartridge. I believe that they were chambered for the 7.62x51mm "CETME" cartridge, a "lighter" round safe for them. Also, some .308 Winchester loads will exceed the chamber pressure of the 7.62x51 NATO round. Both will chamber and fire in the M1916, but that action was designed for about 38K to 40K PSI. Some .308 Win. rounds can have chamber pressure approaching 60K PSI. If you get a M1916 carbine, use appropriate light loads in it. Use your head for something other than a hat rack. DDR
    DDR,

    I know this is going to start yet another long thread about 308 vs. 7.62x51 pressures, but you can't, repeat... can't compare CUP to PSI readings. They cannot be directly compared. The two systems of measurement are not compatible, despite the fact that the numbers look similar.

    The only way you can compare the pressures is to measure ammo samples in the same pressure test barrel using the same methods and equipment.

    Someone else here may be able to provide actual test data, but my understanding has been that some lots of military 7.62x51 are actually higher pressure loadings than commercial 308 rather than the more commonly held belief of the opposite condition.
    There is always a well-known solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong.
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    I 2nd DDR's advice about the Chilean 1912 modified with the o3-a3 barrel to 7.62 Nato, mine is exceptionally accurate although the exterior is a little rough, mine came with a great trigger and fast firing pin spring too. The Savage 110 is a great choice too, my heavy barreled 100fp in .308 is easily way sub-moa with handloads.
    Veritas vos liberabit

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    Another vote for savage here. I just picked up a brand new savage model 111 in 270win at a local shop for $475 out the door. The trigger on it is sweet!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Futurecollector View Post
    At this point Im going to get the savage, but whats the Accu Trigger?
    The Accu-Trigger is.......................SWEET.
    Ukko Boudreauxski.
    Speed is fine, but accuracy is final.
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    - Townsend Whelen

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    You could always go for a Tikka T3 Lite in .308. I have one and it shoots wonderful. You won't get the rifle and a good scope for $500, but I think the extra money would be well worth it. The first two rounds I ever put through it went through the exact same hole at 50 yards. I got some 3/4 M.O.A. groups with it one day with my anemic (and archaic) 4x40 Tasco I have mounted to it.

    I did adjust the trigger down to 2 lbs, but that's the only "modification" I did to it. Reducing the trigger weight is covered in the manual, and is as easy as rotating a hex-key bolt.
    Last edited by phatcyclist; 10-04-2008 at 12:02 AM.

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    MilSurpFan: Just where did you see me use or get the idea that I was comparing PSI with CUP? I am comparing apples with apples - PSI with PSI. To do what you suggest would be an erroneous and worthless comparison...I agree.

    "DDR,

    I know this is going to start yet another long thread about 308 vs. 7.62x51 pressures, but you can't, repeat... can't compare CUP to PSI readings. They cannot be directly compared. The two systems of measurement are not compatible, despite the fact that the numbers look similar.

    The only way you can compare the pressures is to measure ammo samples in the same pressure test barrel using the same methods and equipment.

    Someone else here may be able to provide actual test data, but my understanding has been that some lots of military 7.62x51 are actually higher pressure loadings than commercial 308 rather than the more commonly held belief of the opposite condition."


    Here's what I know from sources that I trust...


    7.62x51 NATO and U.S. commercial .308 Winchester are technically not the same cartridge, nor or they necessarily interchangeable. Here are the differencies:


    .308 Winchester chamber headspace:

    Go: 1.630"
    NoGo: 1.634"
    Field reject: 1.638"


    U.S. Army 7.62x51 chamber headspace:

    Go: 1.635"
    Field reject: 1.6455"


    SAAMI .308 Winchester chamber pressures:

    MAP: 62,000 PSI
    MPSM: 66,000 PSI
    Minimum proof pressure: 83,000 PSI
    Maximum proof pressure: 89,000 PSI

    U.S. Army 7.62x51 chamber pressure:

    Maximum: 50,000 PSI
    Proof: 67,000 PSI


    This is why some early 20th century milsurp Mauser rifles converted to "7.62" and not using the 7.62mm CETME cartridge could have very short lives when used with some .308 Winchester ammo or 7.62.51 NATO ammo. Those cartridges exceed the design parameters of the original cartridge (7x57mm Mauser). Those cartridges were never intended to be used in that action. DDR
    Last edited by DudleyDR; 10-17-2008 at 09:08 AM.
    +2,100 (2,082+18)

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    I had a Savage 110 in 7mm Rem Mag. It shot sub MOA groups right out of the box. That was way before the accu trigger. the Accu trigger is very sweet and is standard on Savages now.

    That said I'm seriously eyeing up a Saiga! :D
    Billy

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    Quote Originally Posted by DudleyDR View Post
    MilSurpFan: Just where did you see me use or get the idea that I was comparing PSI with CUP? I am comparing apples with apples - PSI with PSI. To do what you suggest would be an erroneous and worthless comparison...I agree.

    "DDR,

    I know this is going to start yet another long thread about 308 vs. 7.62x51 pressures, but you can't, repeat... can't compare CUP to PSI readings. They cannot be directly compared. The two systems of measurement are not compatible, despite the fact that the numbers look similar.

    The only way you can compare the pressures is to measure ammo samples in the same pressure test barrel using the same methods and equipment.

    Someone else here may be able to provide actual test data, but my understanding has been that some lots of military 7.62x51 are actually higher pressure loadings than commercial 308 rather than the more commonly held belief of the opposite condition."


    Here's what I know...


    7.62x51 NATO and U.S. commercial .308 Winchester are technically not the same cartridge, nor or they necessarily interchangeable. Here are the differencies:


    .308 Winchester chamber headspace:

    Go: 1.630"
    NoGo: 1.634"
    Field reject: 1.638"


    U.S. Army 7.62x51 chamber headspace:

    Go: 1.635"
    Field reject: 1.6455"


    SAAMI .308 Winchester chamber pressures:

    MAP: 62,000 PSI
    MPSM: 66,000 PSI
    Minimum proof pressure: 83,000 PSI
    Maximum proof pressure: 89,000 PSI

    U.S. Army 7.62x51 chamber pressure:

    Maximum: 50,000 PSI
    Proof: 67,000 PSI


    This is why some early 20th century milsurp Mauser rifles converted to 7.62x51 NATO can have very short lives when used with some .308 Winchester ammo. DDR
    Fair enough, I did not explain myself sufficiently... you didn't specifically meniton CUP, however the 38,000 - 40,000 figure you mentioned for the Mauser actions is CUP, not PSI measured using modern methods and equipment. I should have specifically mentioned that to avoid ambiguity.

    I've been told that the pressure figures listed by the Army were measured with a copper crusher (CUP) as that was all they had to use at the time. So, despite the "PSI" in the documents, it is CUP.

    My understanding is that when tested side by side in the same pressure test equipment, military 7.52x51 and commercial .308 loadings have very similar pressures with many lots of military ammo actually being higher than commercial. That's the only way to accurately compare the loads since the specs are not using the same measurement methods.

    There are a variety of sources that I have gotten this from. I have run across a number of articles and posts from people who test ammo professionally, and they indicated that the pressure differences are much smaller than indicated by just comparing the raw numbers out of context.

    Notice that 308 in a 7.62x51 rifle is not listed by SAAMI as an unsafe combination though 5.56 in a .223 is:
    http://www.saami.org/Unsafe_Combinations.cfm

    Also, the current specs for 7.62 NATO list a "Service Pressure Pmax" of 60,190 psi:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_EPVAT_testing

    Also, there are less formal descriptions available:
    http://www.smellysmleshooters.net/ammopressure.htm


    So, though I do agree 100% with you that firing full-house loads in a Guardia Civil 1916 or FR-7 is poor choice, it is not because commercial ammo is loaded to a higher pressure specification.
    There is always a well-known solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DudleyDR View Post
    MilSurpFan: Just where did you see me use or get the idea that I was comparing PSI with CUP? I am comparing apples with apples - PSI with PSI. To do what you suggest would be an erroneous and worthless comparison...I agree.

    "DDR,

    I know this is going to start yet another long thread about 308 vs. 7.62x51 pressures, but you can't, repeat... can't compare CUP to PSI readings. They cannot be directly compared. The two systems of measurement are not compatible, despite the fact that the numbers look similar.

    The only way you can compare the pressures is to measure ammo samples in the same pressure test barrel using the same methods and equipment.

    Someone else here may be able to provide actual test data, but my understanding has been that some lots of military 7.62x51 are actually higher pressure loadings than commercial 308 rather than the more commonly held belief of the opposite condition."


    Here's what I know...


    7.62x51 NATO and U.S. commercial .308 Winchester are technically not the same cartridge, nor or they necessarily interchangeable. Here are the differencies:


    .308 Winchester chamber headspace:

    Go: 1.630"
    NoGo: 1.634"
    Field reject: 1.638"


    U.S. Army 7.62x51 chamber headspace:

    Go: 1.635"
    Field reject: 1.6455"


    SAAMI .308 Winchester chamber pressures:

    MAP: 62,000 PSI
    MPSM: 66,000 PSI
    Minimum proof pressure: 83,000 PSI
    Maximum proof pressure: 89,000 PSI

    U.S. Army 7.62x51 chamber pressure:

    Maximum: 50,000 PSI
    Proof: 67,000 PSI


    This is why some early 20th century milsurp Mauser rifles converted to 7.62x51 NATO can have very short lives when used with some .308 Winchester ammo. DDR
    I'm glad you posted this up, as it needed to be said.

    7.62x51 and .308 Winchester are two different cartridges. Their case dimensions are very close, but because the civillian cartridge has a higher maximum chamber pressure, you shouldn't fire the commercial loading in converted milsurps (or any older milsurp).

    A Savage would be a good rifle, so would a Remington 700. I suggested a Tikka T3, which is roughly the same price range as the other two rifles I just mentioned. Sako/Tikka guarantees the T3s will group less than 1 M.O.A before they leave the factory, you won't get that promise from any other manufacturer close to that price range. I have one in .308 and love it, and I get 1/2-2/3 M.O.A groupings all day long with my various target and hunting loads.

    Please don't fire the .308 Win in 7.62 NATO guns, the likelihood that it would create a problem is low, but why risk it?

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    And I did not witness the tests, so I cannot/will not vouch for the method used or the accuracy of its calibration. In principle, we are on the same page - being safe and not foolish. I think that I recall a DSA steel receiver withstanding over 100K PSI during testing. There must have been a reason for going to such a high level. DDR
    Last edited by DudleyDR; 10-17-2008 at 09:11 AM.
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    Default Spanish FR-8

    Check out the FR-8. Cool lookling well built Mauser/Cetme carbine.
    Procrastinate now!

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    Here is another one. Cabella's and some other dealers are selling Remington's classic Mauser 98 sporters for just under $500, which is cheaper than a similiar model 700. No problem getting one in .308 Winchester either...

    Last edited by cousinkix1953; 11-16-2008 at 12:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by videodon View Post
    You might find a Saiga for under 5 bills.
    I really like mine.
    I'll second this.
    Where did you get that mount and scope?
    Last edited by Rmac58; 11-16-2008 at 04:30 AM. Reason: grammer

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    If i was going to get a 'modern' boltgun in .308, it would be a remington 700. For C&R... probably an enfield 2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zul View Post
    If i was going to get a 'modern' boltgun in .308, it would be a remington 700. For C&R... probably an enfield 2a.
    The Savage 110 and its variants are cheaper (comparing like rifles) than the Remington, have an excellent reputation for accuracy and have a number of safety features for gas venting during case failure that the competition simply cannot match. Not to mention the nice trigger.

    Now that being said, I still haven't bought one myself yet. These Mosins keep distracting me. Even so, as a former mechanic, I always look at the Savage rifles and think "such an effective mechanical design".
    There is always a well-known solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong.
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    you already have your answer many times over. savage is the way to go!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MilSurpFan View Post
    The Savage 110 and its variants are cheaper (comparing like rifles) than the Remington, have an excellent reputation for accuracy and have a number of safety features for gas venting during case failure that the competition simply cannot match. Not to mention the nice trigger.

    Now that being said, I still haven't bought one myself yet. These Mosins keep distracting me. Even so, as a former mechanic, I always look at the Savage rifles and think "such an effective mechanical design".
    + 1
    The separate rotating bolt head is Mosin like and an intelligent design. My next modern rifle will be a Savage 10 FP in .308 with the HS Precision stock .
    Ukko Boudreauxski.
    Speed is fine, but accuracy is final.
    - Bill Jordan

    Only accurate rifles are interesting.
    - Townsend Whelen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rmac58 View Post
    I'll second this.
    Where did you get that mount and scope?
    I forget where I got it.
    ...maybe Kalinka?
    It's a 4x with a lighted reticle.
    I have the "regular" 4x on my PSL.

    видеодон

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    Quote Originally Posted by videodon View Post
    I forget where I got it.
    ...maybe Kalinka?
    It's a 4x with a lighted reticle.
    I have the "regular" 4x on my PSL.
    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zul View Post
    If i was going to get a 'modern' boltgun in .308, it would be a remington 700. For C&R... probably an enfield 2a.
    Either model is good enough for me too; but that 700 BDL is gonna cost more like 700 bucks instead of 500 or so for the 798 Remington 98 Mauser clone...

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    Quote Originally Posted by singleshotcajun View Post
    + 1
    The separate rotating bolt head is Mosin like and an intelligent design. My next modern rifle will be a Savage 10 FP in .308 with the HS Precision stock .
    Ditto, I think I will look around at some prices today.

    regards
    badger

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    +1 on the Savage accu trigger. Try and get the one with iron sights for back up or the Scout model.
    Also consider CZ products or even a Remington pump action if on a budget. I'm a big propronent of back up iron sights, as you never know when an inexpensive scope is going to crap out on you, rifle get dropped, etc.... BeSwift

  42. #42
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    912

    Default I'm partial to .308/7.62



    These are two of my favorites; an FN Special Police Rifle and a DPMS Panther Arms LR308. I have (and should be able to) shoot sub-moa with them (3/4" three shots at 100 yards).

    Although not cheap the FN SPR is based on a pre-64 Model 70 action; and comes in the McMillan stock. I replaced the Mueller scope with a Millet scope and added a Harris bi-pod. I wouldn't want to hump this in the woods all day but I like it alot. Obviously it likes match ammo and I have bought reloading dies in .308 but haven't taken that plunge yet...I have about 1,000 once used cases and 500+ bullets.

    In my opinion .308/7.62x51 is one of the best all around rifle cartridges (and light machine gun - nothing beats .50 Browning though) available. In addition to the two pictured above I also own a BM59 (essentially an M1 Garand modified to take 20 round magazines) in 7.62, another DPMS - an AP4 (semi-auto M-Forgery in .308), and two FN FALs. In the summer of 2007 I had 55,000 rounds of Lake City 7.62 but sold all but 5,000 rounds for my own use..

    Remington makes this gun, the Model 700 VTR (Varmit Tactical Rifle) in .223, .270, and .308. Mine is in .223 but I would have preferred the .308. The exterior of the barrel is triangular that eventually becomes round by the fore end of the stock. There are 3 cuts at the muzzle for a built in compensator - it does hold the muzzle down when shooting but makes it very loud.


  43. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    822

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MEJ1990TM View Post
    One of the gun shops I go to has a rebarreled Enfield ,not sure which model, chambered for the 7.62 NATO.

    I don't really like the looks of it though. the wood has a very dark tone, and the metal parts look like they just have some kind of black paint on them.
    That sounds like an Ishapore 2A/2A1. If so, it isn't "rebarreled." They were built as .308s from the beginning.

    The wood of a 2A/2A1 is luan mahogany. And the black paint comes off.

  44. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Houston area
    Posts
    721

    Default

    How about an Israeli Mauser in 308 NATO. This was one of Century's "fair" grade specials, with the right load this one with a butt ugly and worn bore shoots pretty good.

    http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k3...ech%20Israeli/

    Last edited by singleshotcajun; 11-17-2008 at 10:55 AM.
    Ukko Boudreauxski.
    Speed is fine, but accuracy is final.
    - Bill Jordan

    Only accurate rifles are interesting.
    - Townsend Whelen

  45. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    253

    Default

    I like my Saiga .308. I don't know of a better semi-auto for the money. But, you better move fast, because all guns are going up, drastically.

    I have an Indian Enfield in .308; and although it is a fine bolt action rifle, and accurate, I think one would be better off with a Savage 110, because it is easier to mount a good scope on the Savage than on a milsurp like the Enfield.

    Rifles shooting .308 are good all around rifles; but you can't use the rifle to it's full long distance potential without a scope. But, that's my opinion.

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