Serbian Model 1910 Model Carbine - Jon Speed
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Thread: Serbian Model 1910 Model Carbine - Jon Speed

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    Default Serbian Model 1910 Model Carbine - Jon Speed

    During Jon Speed's search for information on the Brazilian contract, he discovered information of value on the Serbian M1910 Carbine. What follows is Jon Speed's work and words:

    PS In next EM will send pic of a Special Serb Muster carbine 1910 model that appears similar to the Mauser 1907 for Brazil. Serbia bought 200 of these carbines. Also Mauser used up Inventory parts from one model that could be used or modified for other Muster examples.

    Paul, Here is Glass plate image for a Serb Model 1910 Model Carbine, Note short bayonet- The Serbs ordered these along with the 32,000 Model 1910 in Contract. Note it appears similar to Mauser 1907 Carbine for Brazil. When I look in Mauser Inventory data I see lots of parts left over from all previous contracts for most Models. Regards, Jon
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.jpg  

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    Paul, back to the Serb 1910 Cavalry carbine image I sent you. I remembered John and I had a talk after a person had Offered Mr. Ball some photos of such a carbine with SN = K 417. This was used in the last Ball book under Serbia and was described as an unknown model etc. No question this was a rare example so all this forced me to pull out my 1911 files and yearly reports where I found the notes for 300 Cavalry carbines with date of May 18 1911 as shipped out. I then used this date and pulled out the huge Sales book covering this period to look for proof of a direct sale to Government or through dealer and struck pay dirt! Its great when we can Confirm such items of arms History. As for SN K 417 on the Rifle in Balls book Mauser started SN from 1 or 10 or 100 or 1000 or more depending on book keeping needs at the moment. Since we know now that 325 is the Total Number recorded maybe the SN started at the 100 series ? Anyway nice to be able to tie this story up with real data. Every time I am forced to go back into sales books New data pops up but every time I need a subject to look for and an app. time period so I had the 1911 date for old report and could jump into sales book and there it was. Jon

    1. Here is the Sales book Listing with dates of Direct sale to Serbia of 300 Cavalry carbines in first group then 3 other sales of 20 then 3 then 2 for Total 325. This was a limited Production of this configuration. In the text its Named as Kav.=Cavalry Carbine.

    2. Close up shows 300 units etc.

    3. Then one of Paul Mauser best Dealer friends a German Carl Schmidt whose family had been in Brazil since the 1880 period and had their own Import/Export firm and also handled weapons of all kinds to various lands and groups specially in Central and South America. He was in on sales to Costa Rica, Bolivia, Brazil etc. An Entry in sales book 1909 shows Schmidt buying 100 Cavalry carbines Model 07 for some group outside Army in some country etc. Lots of small deals occurred to use up inventory arms and parts etc.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P1070678.jpg   P1070680.jpg   P1070682.jpg  

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    Paul, I only came in to the site talks on the DWM Carbine to show the Oberndorf 1907 Brazil Carbine that had similar features to the DWM example. Since DWM and Mauser shared a lot of data on rifle production as well as any useful feature aspects on the various contracts they worked on etc. The Serb 1910 is sort of a spin off on all this as this model has similar features of the Brazil 1907 since Mauser just used up parts and had machine set ups to make more parts etc.

    The whole event activated my search methods in my files which resulted in the findings on the 325 Carbines for Serbia Model 1910 for which we now have confirmed data. For me its all about how one get drawn into certain talks and how this can stimulate the mind into looking harder for real data etc.

    Regards, Jon

    PS, here are the docs that got me looking into 1911 Files of Mauser more closely and main doc close up shows data on the 32,000 Serbia Model 1910 rifles and below the 325 Carbines that I never knew about. You have the Glass plate images of the carbine 1910 with short bayonet and the Sales book entry for the carbines. The Original agreement for the Serb 1910 deal was written up between DWM and Serbia and signed off by the Loewe appointed DWM Board head Mr. Kosegarten. I have this contract which is in a general form and lists all the aspects of any final production deal etc. In the sales books you can track each group of Model 1910 rifles as they went out in small groups etc. Jon
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2.jpg   3.jpg  

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    Paul, whats interesting with DWM I saw in Mauser Running accounts books where they have Headings for all the main parts of these books Dedicated to DWM and Loewe etc. Under the DWM data lists we see DWM ordered Mauser C 96 pistols, Sporters, 1910 Pocket pistols and such things direct from Oberndorf. There was one well known Presentation C 96 Engraved that went to president of Mexico and the inside lid of this on velvet lining said from DWM so a few years ago I was asked about if DWM ever ordered C 96 and this lead to finding some of these in the accounts books. for this period. Obviously DWM gave away a lot of Gift items to various officials around the world just like Mauser and other firms etc.. One of my favorite Rifles I still have is the DWM Boar 7X57 Presentation sporters SN 552. This is only DWM product I own.

    Regards, Jon

    

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    Paul, for the DWM talks here is only list I have that shows the main DWM deals and folks can see the 10,000 Brazil Carbines along with 50,000 Rifles in 1908 period. This doc I showed John Wall some years ago and he put it up on GB site back then so it has been shown before on various talks etc. Jon
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    Paul, since I have been talking about the Serb Mausers here are some cool docs never seen before.

    1. Contract (Specification Requirements) first signed by DWM Board head Mr. Kosegarten in 1907. This project was given to Mauser in 1910 for 32,000 rifles and now we know 325 Cavalry carbines.

    Cover page with DWM wax Seal and Kosegarten signed.

    2. Last Sign Page signed off by Kosegarten and the Serb Rep with large Serb Seal above

    3. Cover page for whole package in Serb Language and Seal of Serbia dated 1907

    I will send 2nd E M with 3 more Serb /Mauser docs, then 3rd EM with last Glass Plate image of the Contracted Model 1910 Rifle so you have whole story covered etc. Jon
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 5.jpg   7.jpg   8.jpg   6.jpg  

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    Paul, last 3 Serb Related docs

    1. Back page of Serb Contract in Serb Language shows lareg MAUSER paper stamp Sealed Over with Serb Stamp.

    2. Mauser 1911 Inventory List of Completed arms shows in yellow 394 Rifles Serb Model 1910 , Under this 164 Cavalry carbines and under this Costa Rica rifles Model 1910 and other arms below.

    3. Serb Model 1910 Rifle parts still in inventory but no left over Carbine parts

    3rd EM will have Serb 1910 Model Rifle and bayonet from Glass Plate. Now you have whole story with docs. It was fun doing this but now that's it. Take care and this time I kept MB load less then 10 each etc. Jon



    Paul ,another image I had sent John for him to use in any next Edition of Ball book. Serb Muster for Contract 1910 Rifle with short bayonet etc. This goes nicely with the carbine you have. Jon

    
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 10.jpg   1.jpg   7.jpg   9.jpg  

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    The uploads are scrambled, read the descriptions to associate them to the right pictures.

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    Paul, here is super high res pic of the Serb 1910 Cavalry Carbine with short bayonet so you don't have to look for this in my previous EM etc. This will Compete the Serb 1910 story nicely. Regards, Jon

    Paul, one last item on the Serb 1910 story. A 2.5% Commission payment was made to the Serb Rep on the 1910 deals. Mans name was Brankovich. As on most export deals all types of payments were handed out to get deals working just like Today. Its cool to be able to track such activity in the Mauser Financial files like this example. Jon



    
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    Mr. Speed,

    Do you have technical information regarding the 1910 Serbian? Blue prints? The Contract (Specification Requirements) that you mentioned?

    I am looking at the Serbian to see what can also be learned about the Costa Rican.

    thanks so much!

    (I typed up a new post asking several questions about the Serbian and Costa Rican, but you beat me to it!)

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    Great info. Thanks for your all's time and sharing.
    mauserdad
    John 3:16 & 17 KJAV 1611
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    Exceptional! Thanks so much.


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    Default Jon Speed Reply

    Paul, the one guy on GB site asked if I had drawings of Costa Rica or Peru or Serbia models and I do Not. I do have all the General specifications for barrel steel quality, barrels steel testing values, Proofing of barrels and systems, steel for all other parts, wood, inspection process etc etc. The Turk rifles Model 1887, 1890, 1893 and 1903 had the most proofing and inspection marks ever applied on Export rifles. The Turk inspectors in Oberndorf wanted to really be part of whole process at every stage etc.

    For the data collectors the standard for barrels were that a number of barrel blanks were selected from each lot and went through extensive testing which included a proof test load at 5500 ATM and barreled actions in the white were final proof tested at 4200-4500 ATM. Jon

    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Mr. Speed,

    Do you have technical information regarding the 1910 Serbian? Blue prints? The Contract (Specification Requirements) that you mentioned?

    I am looking at the Serbian to see what can also be learned about the Costa Rican.

    thanks so much!

    (I typed up a new post asking several questions about the Serbian and Costa Rican, but you beat me to it!)

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    MD & TP, Jon is glad to provide these glimpses of Mauser Oberndorf's past dealing with contract sales, - and that Gunboards-Mauser provides the platform for this purpose. I think most experienced collectors agree that TP and JPS provide the best "collector" friendly site for sharing such material and this is why Jon Speed always specifies this site for his educational displays.

    Quote Originally Posted by mauserdad View Post
    Great info. Thanks for your all's time and sharing.

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    Many thanks to Jon Speed for providing this impressive data and pictures !!!

    And thanks to you, SimsonSuhl, for posting this data !

    very best regards, Chris

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    We are very fortunate that he is willing to satisfy our whims. I have found for whatever reason many collectors with primary sources are near militant in prohibiting anyone from looking at them. The fact Mr. Speed will take the time to answer questions and post documents is greatly appreciated!

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    A big A+++++ to SimsonSuhl's posting and for his contributions. I sure miss my friend John Wall.
    mauserdad
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    John Wall was the heart of this forum and his loss can't be overstated...

    Jon Speed is well known for his indispensable contributions with book projects, projects that may have begun with modest goals have often taken on greater ambitions once his help (archive and connections, - and possibly more important his grasp of 19th and early 20th Century economic and industrial history) has been offered.

    He definitely doesn't have plans to keep his material-archive secret or take it to his grave, however his time is limited and he does want to have some control in how it is shared.

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    Meant to put this link up the other day:

    http://ww3.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCG...ABASE=60805800,

    Ball looks to have used this in his book.

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    Here now the original documents posted above and their English translations:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1_Serb_P1070678.jpg 
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Name:	Serbia_02.JPG 
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ID:	1897938
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Name:	Serbia_03.JPG 
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ID:	1897922
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ID:	1897914 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Serbia_04.JPG 
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ID:	1897906
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ID:	1897882
    Last edited by 7x57; 01-23-2017 at 07:06 AM.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    More documents and their English translations:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	11_Serb_P1070678.jpg 
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ID:	1898058 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Serbia_07.JPG 
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ID:	1898050
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Name:	Serbia_08.JPG 
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ID:	1898034 This document is also interesting because of the information on Chinese 6.8 mm and 7.0 mm M08 rifles and their ammo!
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ID:	1898026 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Serbia_09.JPG 
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ID:	1898018
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    And this document (in Russian language) has nothing to do with the Serbian Mausers (slipped erroneously among the Serbian documents due to its cyrillic writing), but is nevertheless an interesting one, being the Imperial Russian document granting the Mauser company with the right to exclusively use their trademark on automatic and semi-automatic firearms in Russia for ten years.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1898114 Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1898106 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Serbia_06.JPG 
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ID:	1898098
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Thank you so much! It takes me so long to go through these, this is VERY appreciated!

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    Default Jon Speed update

    Paul, I just realized I left out important doc on the Serb story. The 1911 Yearly report that shows the 32,000 Model 1910 Serb Rifles sold as well as other models.

    Then 2nd page of report shows the Barrel Blanks and Stocks available for 5 Main model rifles and the chart shows the Salary and Material costs to work the final item.

    Also note that other models of Carbines that were sold to dealers that were similar to contracted versions and other items of interest etc.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.jpg   2.jpg  

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