Turkish Winchester 1866 Musket
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Thread: Turkish Winchester 1866 Musket

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    Default Turkish Winchester 1866 Musket

    I've come across the first photo of a Winchester from the Russo-Turkish War on the lost bulgaria site.
    Does anyone know of any Russian documents describing their capture and use?

    Officers of the 3rd Guards Infantry Division during a break, probably in the camp near Yaram Burgas (today Kumburgas, Turkey), 1878
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    The 1866 muskets are a total enigma. Turkish documents state that 48,314 of them were delivered along with 18,425 carbines (or were they?). Yet there are no photos and memoirs depicting their use except the above photo from the Lost Bulgaria site (Изгубената България). Nothing. It is known that the Turkish army declared the 1866 unfit for military use. Only the paramilitary units and some officers used them in very small quantities, but they were all carbines, no muskets were ever mentioned.

    Russian documents show around 200 1866 Winchesters among the captured weapons at Pleven (Plevna). In his memoirs Osman Pasha, the Turkish commander at Pleven, states that the Winchesters were only issued at the very last days of the defense during the last attempt of breakout - and only to the "artillerymen and officers". Furthermore, he states the use of Springfields (muzzle loaders - see tables below), which were replaced by Sniders (underlined in red).

    The tables below show Turkish small arms purchases during this period. Note the large amount of muzzle loaders (seshane) bought by Turkey, the last batch in March 28, 1877! What happened to all these Winchesters? Why were they not used when clearly guns were needed if the Turks were buying muzzle loaders from all over the world - USA, France, Belgium, Austria?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Snider Conversions in Turkey 1.jpg   Snider Conversions in Turkey 2.jpg   Page 203 Otbranata_na_Pleven.jpg  
    Last edited by Nick; 12-20-2016 at 10:32 AM.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Great info Nick! I remember hearing about them being deemed unserviceable but whenever I see the muskets, they are in museums (Albania, Romania, Turkey, Austria, etc) have the tughra, and have been used HARD

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    They may have been used hard (like all Turkish guns), but by whom, when and where? I have read many memoirs from the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78: Russian, Turkish and by foreign observers. They only mention occasional use of carbines by the irregulars and not a single word of the muskets. While the carbines pop up in Bulgaria, there is not a trace of muskets, which supposedly were three times more, 48K vs 18K. Different muzzleloaders (Springfield, Colt, etc.), Snider conversions, Peabody-Martini and Remington RB could also be found in Bulgaria, but no 1866 muskets, no documents about them, no memoirs, no pictures. BTW, the 1866 Winchester carbines that I have seen in Bulgaria have no tughras; some of them were delivered after the war judging by their serial numbers.
    Last edited by Nick; 12-19-2016 at 04:11 PM.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    excuse me, what is with the winchester paper's ? do they show that this thousends of muskets and carbines were realy made and sold to turkey?

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    Looks like the Turks were buying those rifle muskets for Sniderizing, a pretty cheap and easy conversion for them to make, much less costly than buying more Martinis or Winchesters.
    In all the western accounts of Pleven, the Winchesters play the pivotal role in repelling the Russkies! Please don't tell us that the accounts that have been quoted and referenced for the last 150 years are wrong!
    "Get your facts first and then you can distort 'em as much as you please"--Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
    Looks like the Turks were buying those rifle muskets for Sniderizing
    I believe I read they were buying the muzzleloaders cheap and having them converted in Belgium before delivery.

    And Nick, I met the proprietor of a gun shop in Prague back in August who had an 1866 musket he'd got in Bulgaria, tughra intact! (Zbrane-Dave.cz)

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    Very interesting and informative thread! I've never heard of any solid facts about the Winchester carbines (i.e. factory letters about purchase/delivery) to the Turks through their many agents but muskets also? Staying tuned for further education. Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
    Looks like the Turks were buying those rifle muskets for Sniderizing, a pretty cheap and easy conversion for them to make, much less costly than buying more Martinis or Winchesters.
    Yes, the muzzle loaders were bought to be converted to the Snider system, but the majority still weren't by the end of the war. There is a special chapter in the Turkish book "American Arms Deliveries for Turkey" dedicated to the Snider conversion, termed "needle gun" (igneli tufek) by the Turks because of the long firing pin of the Snider. See Table 4 above for more details. In his memoirs from the siege, Osman Pasha writes that the Springfields were replaced with Sniders as the latter had longer range. Quote: "The infantry was armed with rifles of different systems: Peabody-Martini, Snider and Springfield. Because the latter could not shoot farther than 700 meters, they were exchanged for Sniders, which were available at the stores" (underlined in red). Although it is not implicitly clear that the said Springfields were muzzle loaders and not Snider conversions, the logical conclusion is that they were - otherwise why would they not shoot as far as the Sniders?

    Quote Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
    In all the western accounts of Pleven, the Winchesters play the pivotal role in repelling the Russkies! Please don't tell us that the accounts that have been quoted and referenced for the last 150 years are wrong!
    The "accounts quoted" weren't really accounts, but canards - see the book by Storz that I mentioned. Many writers just copied them without any actual research. Can anyone quote an actual eyewitness account from the siege of Pleven that describes the Turkish Ramboglu with two rifles, a Winchester and a Peabody-Martiny? I bet no one can. Cause it didn't happen. The book "The Defense of Pleven" by Osman Pasha is very detailed in describing armament and battles. It was translated in Bulgarian in 1901 with a reprint from 5 years ago (I have both). Yet Osman Pasha mentions the Winchesters only once - I posted it above. I do have many accounts from eyewitnesses, participants, observers, officers, etc. and these are the ones I take seriously.

    Here is a scan of the cover of the Turkish book "The Defense of Pleven". The book was written by Ghazi Osman Pasha, by General Muzafer Pasha, adjutant of the Sultan and by Colonel Talaat Bey, adjutant of Osman Pasha. The book was translated by two Bulgarian officers, Ivanov and Kozlovski. This is one of the most important documents regarding the siege and defense of Pleven as it comes from the defenders themselves. Most of the Western accounts are pure belles-lettres.

    So, could someone quote an actual account of the two-gun Turk at Pleven?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Otbranata na Pleven - Cover.jpg  
    Last edited by Nick; 12-20-2016 at 10:01 AM.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyten View Post
    I believe I read they were buying the muzzleloaders cheap and having them converted in Belgium before delivery.
    These conversions were done in many places, including Tufekhane, the Turkish arsenal; little uniformity exists. Many different muzzle loading models were converted, some of them Austrian in cal. .54 as opposed to the standard .577. I have two of these .54 Snider cartridges, the slight bottleneck is obvious - third & fourth from right in the picture below.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Balkan Cartridges C.jpg  
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highrider View Post
    Very interesting and informative thread! I've never heard of any solid facts about the Winchester carbines (i.e. factory letters about purchase/delivery) to the Turks through their many agents but muskets also?
    The book "The First Winchester" contains some correspondence between Winchester and the Turkish representative Azarian & Sons regarding these purchases. I have not seen any shipping documents, though.
    Last edited by Nick; 12-22-2016 at 11:35 AM.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post

    The "accounts quoted" weren't really accounts, but canards - see the book by Storz that I mentioned. Many writers just copied them without any actual research. Can anyone quote an actual eyewitness account from the siege of Pleven that describes the Turkish Ramboglu with two rifles, a Winchester and a Peabody-Martiny? I bet no one can. Cause it didn't happen.
    Well, there we go, everything we know is wrong! Anecdotal stories of the battle have been the lynchpin of the entire moral of the superiority of the repeater over the single shot rifle for generations. Maybe the Russkies spread the lies in attempts to explain their tremendous casualties, thereby diverting the blame for their general's poor tactical decisions. In the meantime, it DOES mean everything we know IS wrong, at least about the superior firepower of magazine fed weapons. Or at least about the battles of the Russo-Turk war. I suggest we all turn any firearms with magazines into lamps, and go back to our beloved Martini Henrys, Peabodys and etc.,for any future conflict.
    Seriously, good info Nick, excellent to have other perspectives. So, you are saying that, according to Turkish sources, the Winchesters had no influence, or little influence, on the battles at Plevna, and caused nothing but trouble for their soldiers? Dang.
    "Get your facts first and then you can distort 'em as much as you please"--Mark Twain

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    Russian and Romanian losses during the siege were normal for any army, attacking fortified positions. After several unsuccessful attacks the commander of the Russian army at Pleven was eventually replaced by Gen. Todtleben, who tightened the siege and reduced the unnecessary losses from head-on attacks. But all this is well described in many books, I won't go further...

    Wiki's article on this battle is full of BS: Berdan 2 rifles being "outclassed" by the Winchester repeaters (really?), the "old Krnka" (how old, being a model of 1869?) is compared with Peabody-Martini, instead with its equivalent, the Snider (which is older than the Krnka).

    "The old Krnka was soundly outperformed by the more modern single shot Turkish Peabody-Martini rifles and it became clear that the new Berdan rifle had also been rendered obsolete even as it was being introduced into service, outclassed by the Turkish Winchester repeaters
    ."

    Quote Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
    So, you are saying that, according to Turkish sources, the Winchesters had no influence, or little influence, on the battles at Plevna, and caused nothing but trouble for their soldiers?
    What I am saying is that I haven't seen any true accounts of the "devastating fire from the Winchester repeaters" at Pleven. What is more, I haven't seen any accounts about their more or less widespread use in this war. Of course not, since the Turkish military didn't consider them fit for military service. I recommend reading the little chapter about this in Storz's book "German Military Rifles: from the Werder rifle to the M/71.84 Rifle".

    PS. Some guns from the Russo-Turkish War. Missing from the family picture are Berdan 1 and the Evans, so I am showing them separately.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Berdan+No1-1R.jpg   Evans with Bayonet 1R.jpg   Russo-Turkish+War+Guns.jpg  
    Last edited by Nick; 12-19-2016 at 07:51 PM.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Wiki's article on this battle is full with BS:
    Well, there's another surprise! I consider everything published on-line, especially in Wikipedia, to be absolute truth.
    "Get your facts first and then you can distort 'em as much as you please"--Mark Twain

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    I know, but there are just too many wrong things with this article. The writer should be aware that he/she actually doesn't know much on the subject and is simply repeating other people's BS.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by feuerwerker View Post
    excuse me, what is with the winchester paper's ? do they show that this thousends of muskets and carbines were realy made and sold to turkey?
    Yes, they do. There are several books where I cross-referenced this information:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Winchester Books 2.jpg  
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Here are a few scans from Dieter Storz's book that summarize the Winchester legend. The key points are:

    1) Talaat Bey "states categorically that the Turkish infantry did not use Winchester rifles".
    2) The source of the false accounts on the Winchesters at Pleven is named, the French book from 1878 "Guerre d'Orient. Russes et Turcs".

    I arrived at the same conclusion independently through many other sources. Dieter Storz summarizes it in a way that should put an end to the fantasies about the "devastating power" and "pivotal role" of Winchester 1866.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Pleven Rifles 1.jpg   Pleven Rifles 2.jpg   Pleven Rifles 3.jpg  
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Thanks for those excerpts. I did have reason to recently read von Herbert's excellent tome, and indeed his only real mention of the M66 is his issue of one for the final breakout attempt; he said he carried a saber, a dagger, two revolvers with 100 rounds, and a Winchester with 80 rounds--but he was not a staff officer, and did not have a complete view of the battle at all times.
    That being said, the story of the use of repeaters at the siege by the Turks, true or not, was in place long before the internet arrived--in fact WHB Smith's "Book of Rifles" from the 1940's, and his "Small Arms of the World", from circa 1960's, even have the Plevna story in the introductions.
    "Get your facts first and then you can distort 'em as much as you please"--Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
    That being said, the story of the use of repeaters at the siege by the Turks, true or not, was in place long before the internet arrived.
    Of course - the legend was created in 1878 by the French! Still a legend despite being old. Just like the Soviet legend about their "victory" at Prohorovka (near Kursk), which in fact was a terrible defeat for them.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    in "Under the Red Crescent" Charles Ryan mentions using a Winchester while riding out with some Circassian soldiers against the Russian Cavalry in Plevna. He was a surgeon but I dont think that he would have been given a rifle that wasnt issued to the regiment he was riding with. He doesn't specify whether or not it was a musket or carbine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyten View Post
    .. some Circassian soldiers ...
    Irregulars, mentioned above.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    As to where the Winchesters ended up, reports from the Red Sea Italian Colony of Eritrea (1887 onward) relate that (Turkish, Armenian and Arab) Merchants had quantities of "Winchesters" available for who ever could afford them. It is also recorded that the Italian Officers of the Eritrean Ascari Cavalry ( armed with the famous 500 Vetterli Vitali M1870/88 CARBINE), used "Winchesters" (Calibre unknown, model unknown.).

    Doc AV

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    have a special interest for this corner since reading Henry de Monfreid

    some years ago there was a story about a winchester 66 in a european gunmagazin (believe it was in DWJ) that was brought back by an austrian soldier from the bosnia crisis 1908

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    Many 1866 Winchesters were imported after the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78. I have seen three M66 in Bulgaria (small sample, I know), two of them had serial numbers that place them outside the Turkish contract. Just like not every Martini-Henry fought at Rourke's Drift, not every Winchester in the Balkans fought the war.
    Last edited by Nick; 01-02-2017 at 04:42 PM.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Irregulars, mentioned above.
    the only photo I have of "irregulars" with rifles (not muzzleloaders) are these zeybeks with Sniders. They are from the Aegean and must've been armed differently from the Circassians I guess

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    There is a very interesting analysis of the small arms used during the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78, "Comparison of the Turkish armament with the Russian". It was released during the final months of the war. It discusses the effectiveness and the reliability of the small arms as witnessed during the war. Compared are Berdan rifle and carbine, Peabody-Martini, Snider, Krnka, Winchester (M1866) and Smith & Wesson No.3 revolver.

    The Russian assessment of the Winchester carbine is that the gun is a very poor infantry weapon: "In terms of ballistics the carbine cannot even be compared with the infantry rifles... It is more appropriate to be compared with our revolver Smith & Wesson... Although the Winchester carbine is easier to use on horse and has a higher rate of fire than our cavalry carbine [Berdan 2] it is significantly inferior to it due to its weak cartridge". They state that only some cavalry units were armed with the Winchester carbine. The muskets are not even mentioned.

    It is a very interesting read - if you read Russian, of course, I don't have it translated in English. It is always interesting to hear what the actual users have to say about the real battle performance of the guns.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Turkish Guns in the War of 1877-78 (Cover).jpg  
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    ...The Russian assessment of the Winchester carbine is that the gun is a very poor infantry weapon: ... Although the Winchester carbine is easier to use on horse and has a higher rate of fire than our cavalry carbine [Berdan 2] it is significantly inferior to it due to its weak cartridge...
    It is always interesting to hear what the actual users have to say about the real battle performance of the guns.
    The real purpose of the Win 66 was exactly a pistol caliber carbine with a very high rate of fire, so the Russians got that much right. Yankee cavalry used the predecessor, the Henry rifle, to huge advantage during the late unpleasantness of 1861-65, with the same caliber round as the 66, and it was highly regarded. Cavalry fights at close range and a high rate of fire in those melées is a good thing, regardless of the "weak cartridge". But the US didn't keep it after the WBTS, either, and issued a single shot rifle caliber cavalry carbine. Ask Custer about fighting with single shot carbines against a force armed with Henrys...but I digress.
    I'm curious, how did the Russkies regard the infantry weapons, i.e., Berdan(s) vs. Martini?
    Last edited by FGD135; 01-02-2017 at 11:44 AM.
    "Get your facts first and then you can distort 'em as much as you please"--Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    2) The source of the false accounts on the Winchesters at Pleven is named, the French book from 1878 "Guerre d'Orient. Russes et Turcs".I
    I blame the French for most things.
    "Get your facts first and then you can distort 'em as much as you please"--Mark Twain

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    An excellent and informative thread! Thanks Nick, Cyten, Doc, FGD135 and feuerwerker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
    I'm curious, how did the Russkies regard the infantry weapons
    On Snider vs. Krnka:

    "Considering that the Turkish bullets instead of clay had a wooden wedge, which changed its dimensions with time, and that the Turkish gunpowder was of lower quality than the British, there is no reason the Turkish conversion guns would be more accurate than our Krnka rifles.... Regarding the Krnka and Snider rate of fire, they are absolutely the same.... Krnka has the advantage of having a lighter bayonet."


    Peabody-Martini vs. Berdan 2:

    "At distances of up to 1200 paces the Berdan has a flatter trajectory due to its lighter bullet. Comparing the accuracy it is difficult to tell whether or not the Peabody has any advantage. Its 50% grouping (diameter of the group of 50% of all bullets on target) falls between those for the Berdan recorded in the US and in France... The sights are similar to Berdan's... At first glance the Peabody-Martini appears to be a very clever design, but in reality it has several shortcomings: the extractor works on impact... not very good with lower quality cases; 2) firing pin protrusion is critical when using drawn cases; 3) carrying the rifle loaded is dangerous; 4) disassembly and assembly of the breach require high skills, which is hard to expect from the regular soldier.

    The Berdan has the following advantages: 1) the extractor works better; 2) FP protrusion is easy to adjust; 3) Berdan is safe
    r to carry loaded due to the bolt's safety; 4) easy disassembly & assembly... The only drawback of the Berdan 2 rifle is the relatively weak main spring at 13 pounds."

    The report also quotes the conclusions of the French military commission after the Peabody-Martini was tested there. Also quoted are the results from the US tests of the Martini-Henry, where the rifle exhibited extraction problems.
    Last edited by Nick; 01-02-2017 at 03:16 PM.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
    I blame the French for most things.
    I blame all graphomaniacs who reproduce old myths instead of verifying them against actual eyewitness accounts.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
    Ask Custer about fighting with single shot carbines against a force armed with Henrys...
    I seriously doubt the outcome would have been any different even if he had the Henry. Once the magazine is empty it's a single shot gun. The overwhelming numeric advantage of the adversary would still be the major factor.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Some comparison pictures:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Krnka vs Snider Extraction.jpg   Sharpshooter & Infantry Krnka 6R.jpg   Sharpshooter & Infantry Krnka 7R.jpg   Krnka Cartridges 1.jpg   Krnka Deconstructed 1.jpg   Krnka Deconstructed 2.jpg  

    Krnka Deconstructed 3.jpg  
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    "At distances of up to 1200 paces the Berdan has a flatter trajectory due to its lighter bullet. Comparing the accuracy it is difficult to tell whether or not the Peabody has any advantage. Its 50% grouping (diameter of the group of 50% of all bullets on target) falls between those for the Berdan recorded in the US and in France... The sights are similar to Berdan's... At first glance the Peabody-Martini appears to be a very clever design, but in reality it has several shortcomings: the extractor works on impact... not very good with lower quality cases; 2) firing pin protrusion is critical when using drawn cases; 3) carrying the rifle loaded is dangerous; 4) disassembly and assembly of breach require high skills, which is hard to expect from the regular soldier.

    The Berdan has the following advantages: 1) the extractor works better; 2) FP protrusion is easy to adjust; 3) Berdan is safe[/I]r to carry loaded due to the bolt's safety; 4) easy disassembly & assembly... The only drawback of the Berdan 2 rifle is the relatively weak main spring at 13 pounds."

    The report also quotes the conclusions of the French military commission after the Peabody-Martini was tested there. Also quoted are the results from the US tests of the Martini-Henry, where the rifle exhibited extraction problems.
    That is extremely interesting and appears to be a good review of the two. The remarks about the extraction problems with the Peabody seems to mirror the issues the British had with their early MH. Early Peabody's had safeties, however, so that remark must have applied to the later version.
    I've never heard of mainspring problems with the Berdan II, so I'm assuming that remark is suggesting that BII mainsprings fatigue and cause light primer strikes over time, have you seen this mentioned elsewhere?
    Last edited by FGD135; 01-02-2017 at 02:29 PM.
    "Get your facts first and then you can distort 'em as much as you please"--Mark Twain

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    The only main spring concern was the reliability during freezing weather if a thick lubricant were used. It also required "more sensitive primers". No actual problems associated with the main spring were reported.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
    Early Peabody's had safeties
    Which were removed as they caused problems for the illiterate Turkish soldier; its "complexity" outweighed the advantage of carrying a loaded gun safely.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    So did the 1874 Peabody Martini (by Providence Tool)...also removed by the simple expedient of snapping off the Button and leaving the internal spring. The First Martini Henry (Mark I) also had the safety Button, deleted in Later Marks.

    On the "Weakness" of the M1866", the Dutch also made this comment in 1868-9, when testing many rifles, that the Winchester was Weak in both Cartridge, and Mechanical construction ( Martens & De Vries).

    Doc AV

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocAV View Post
    On the "Weakness" of the M1866", the Dutch also made this comment in 1868-9, when testing many rifles, that the Winchester was Weak in both Cartridge, and Mechanical construction ( Martens & De Vries).
    Which is exactly what the US Government thought about the 1860 Henry. The feds didn't buy a single one, although they funded a state purchase of 1,700 Henrys. And that's during the War of Northern Aggression, when they were buying anything that could shoot!
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

  40. #39

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    In the war against Russia, the Ottoman Empire was defeated and roughly20,000 or maybe more Winchester guns were lost to the enemy or otherwise disappeared.Serbian army received 880 M1866 Winchester booty weapons. Russia, Bulgaria, andRomania also captured a lot of weapons during this time. The numericalinformation is not available, however, the quantities were large. At the end ofthe war, the Ottoman army only had 30,000 or less Winchester guns left. Theremaining guns were restored, Arabic serial numbers were engraved to the lockhousing. The new numbers were engraved to the rear sights. In addition, therewere engraved with division codes on the butt plate. I do not have the informationif all the weapons which were left over from the war were given this treatment.These engraved arms can be seen on the Internet and in the auction catalogs.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauser 71/84 View Post
    In the war against Russia, the Ottoman Empire was defeated and roughly20,000 or maybe more Winchester guns were lost to the enemy or otherwise disappeared.Serbian army received 880 M1866 Winchester booty weapons. Russia, Bulgaria, andRomania also captured a lot of weapons during this time. The numericalinformation is not available, however, the quantities were large. At the end ofthe war, the Ottoman army only had 30,000 or less Winchester guns left. Theremaining guns were restored, Arabic serial numbers were engraved to the lockhousing. The new numbers were engraved to the rear sights. In addition, therewere engraved with division codes on the butt plate. I do not have the informationif all the weapons which were left over from the war were given this treatment.These engraved arms can be seen on the Internet and in the auction catalogs.
    Source, please (obviously a copy-paste excerpt). Too many non-facts have been written by just anybody who wishes to write on the subject, but without actual research.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

  42. #41

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Total amount M 1866Winchesters delivered to Ottomans were 48,314 muskets

    and 18,425 carbines.
    This looks to be the right amount.
    Facts have been difficult to find I have investigated serial n/o' of Winchesters supplied to Ottomans.
    How many Turkish Winchester you have had in you hand.
    regards
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 009a.JPG  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauser 71/84 View Post


    How many Turkish Winchester you have had in you hand.
    I have personally handled two. And that proves what exactly? I have yet to see a serious source on the battle use of the Turk contract Winchesters - care to quote any? Not on deliveries, they are well documented, on their battle use, especially at Pleven.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

  44. #43

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    Plevna may be well documented.
    all captured winchesters in Plevna and other war booty materials and weapons were suplied to Russia.
    I have had those in my hand more than 20
    and I know more than 50 what had supplied to Ottomans
    If you give me the serial N/O M 1866 winchester and photo of it I can say if it is a part of Ottomans delivery

  45. #44

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    What special thing is muskets what had captured in Plevna
    interesting question ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauser 71/84 View Post
    Plevna may be well documented.
    It is and I quote the memoirs of the Turkish defenders at Pleven. Do you have something better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mauser 71/84 View Post
    If you give me the serial N/O M 1866 winchester and photo of it I can say if it is a part of Ottomans delivery
    Thank you, but I have several Winchester books with this information - see previous page.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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