Turkish Winchester 1866 Musket - Page 2
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Thread: Turkish Winchester 1866 Musket

  1. #46

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    You do not tell what special is the winchesters captured from plevna.
    Yes you have several books so I also have
    You have earlier put the table in this webb where are the list of Turkish orders of winchesters.
    What book is table from.Attachment 1961673

  2. #47

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    Missing from the family picture are Berdan 1 and the Evans, so I am showing them separately.
    What is serial no of this Evans rifle ?
    Evans rifles were not in use in Russo-Turkish war

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    I sold and Evens non military in ronoake va show back in the middle 1990's...excellent condition.

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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauser 71/84 View Post
    Missing from the family picture are Berdan 1 and the Evans, so I am showing them separately.
    What is serial no of this Evans rifle ?
    Evans rifles were not in use in Russo-Turkish war
    You should know that this model was not serially numbered. Only the old model had serial numbers. The numbers on the new model are assembly numbers. Why do you need to know the number of my Evans?

    And yes, the Evans fought in the Russo-Turkish war. There is a book on that company that cites archival documents and deliveries to both Turkey and Russia.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

  6. #50

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    Attachment 1961993This evans of yours have never seen Russia. I have had in my hands 22 Evans muskets and carbines.
    All Evans supplied to Russia have serial no's , Evans had supplied to Russia about 300 weapons for tests. Biggest serial no' I have seen is 268.
    Those serial no's have put in the weapon By Russians.
    If you look the photo you see differences in you carbine and the picture.
    This one is supplied to Russia. Navy accept the Evans for use and made order 10 000 but Company was in bankropt.
    so no more Evans was supplied. Today main part of those are in museums in Russia
    we have 5 Evans in Finland
    This is the Evans history in Russo Turkish war. So not in there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauser 71/84 View Post
    Attachment 1961993This evans of yours have never seen Russia. I have had in my hands 22 Evans muskets and carbines.
    All Evans supplied to Russia have serial no's , Evans had supplied to Russia about 300 weapons for tests. Biggest serial no' I have seen is 268.
    Those serial no's have put in the weapon By Russians.
    If you look the photo you see differences in you carbine and the picture.
    This one is supplied to Russia. Navy accept the Evans for use and made order 10 000 but Company was in bankropt.
    so no more Evans was supplied. Today main part of those are in museums in Russia
    we have 5 Evans in Finland
    This is the Evans history in Russo Turkish war. So not in there.
    Your photos are not displaying here. At least not for me.
    "Get your facts first and then you can distort 'em as much as you please"--Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauser 71/84 View Post
    This is the Evans history in Russo Turkish war. So not in there.
    This is what one Finnish book says (yes, I have it and I am completely unimpressed with it). There is a lot more to the story of the Evans in Russia, with which four cruisers were armed, but that's a different story. This thread is on the Turkish Winchesters.

    The Evans was used by Turkey during the Russo-Turkish War and some of them were captured by the Russians. Judging by your rather categorical "So not there" I don't think you are familiar with this part of the battle use.

    Here are some scans of the quite mediocre Finnish book on the European rifles. It appears you are the author? I apologize for being straightforward on my opinion. My opinion is also shared by several Russian historians who found many mistakes on the subject of the Evans.

    PS. The numbers on the New Model Evans are not serial numbers, but batch/assembly numbers.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Military Rifles in Europe 1867-1886, p 185.jpg  

    Military Rifles in Europe 1867-1886  Cover.jpg  

    Military Rifles in Europe 1867-1886, p 184.jpg  

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

  9. #53

  10. #54

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    There are stories and stories.
    Russians had only ab 300 Evans for tests and you see in pictures what is different in carbines yours and the book.
    Amount what Turks have Evans I do not have any indictions.
    Russian Historians it would be good to know the names.
    Thank you for constractive worlds of the book.
    You have not the first who say there are some mistakes. I agree today I know more than 2 years ago.
    Tell me one book where are no mistakes.

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    This thread would be so much better if we could actually POST PICTURES!!!
    In Memorium:
    GM1c - LST 941

    You can view pics of my collection here.

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    I have been reading this thread with some interest although I am an admitted amateur in this area. I believe it is documented that Winchester did make those muskets and carbines in the quantities noted. And if so where did they end up and what was the disposition of them after they were deemed no longer serviceable? I remember 40 + years ago seeing some surplus ads for Winchester muskets but these were not extensive. Unless they were destroyed they apparently have vanished into thin air. Is it possible the are still stored away in some obscure govt. warehouse somewhere?
    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by italiansport View Post
    Unless they were destroyed they apparently have vanished into thin air.
    That's my feeling, too. Where did they go, so many of them? We know the Turkish military didn't accept them, despite the guns being purchased in large numbers. Only the use by the irregulars has been documented.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

  14. #58

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    Those winchesters are in the markets you can see them in auctions.
    I have collected serial no's of those war booty winchesters and made stydy of those serial no,s
    Fact is that 90 % of M1866 winchester muskets made 1871-1877 have been in Ottomans use
    How many of those have Turkish engravings difficult to no but not thousands.
    Also same are carbines.maybe 60 % or more.
    There are not any stock of the weapons.

  15. #59

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    Fact is that Serbians got 800 as war booty
    so also Bulgarians. Russians got more than 200 All Russian museum have those winchesters
    We have ab. 12 in finnnish collectors what are war booty ones.
    St Peterburgs artillery museum have 12 Winchesters.

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    Paavo,

    Indeed there are many Winchesters handed over as captures or reparations (the Serbians didn't fight at Pleven or any other major battle in the Russo-Turkish War). The thread is about the rarity of the muskets, which is rather puzzling, considering that the Turks purchased three times as many muskets as carbines. Sometimes I think this is a typical Oriental hoax, money was spent, the goods were declared delivered, but in reality the money went into somebody's pockets and the goods were only delivered on paper. Remember that the purchase of the Winchesters was not handled directly by the Turkish ministry of defense (or whatever they called it), but by a private firm. Also remember the story with the purchase of the Peabody-Martini rifles, where the Turkish officials demanded kickbacks in order to approve the deal.

    Then the thread branched off to the alleged use of the Winchesters at the defense of Pleven, which was refuted by the Turks themselves. Another persistent canard...

    So if you have any historic documents regarding the use of Winchester 1866 in the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78 I would love to see them!
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

  17. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauser 71/84 View Post
    Russians had only ab 300 Evans for tests.
    Most likely these were the rifles with which the four Russian auxiliary cruisers were armed. In 1877 Russia purchased four ships from the US - Zabiyaka, Asia, Africa & Europe ("Забияка", "Азия", "Африка" и "Европа"). They were intended to raid British merchant ships as with the start of the war England declared that they will not abide by the "privateer convention" and will attack all Russian ships. The boarding commands of these four ships were armed with the Evans. 300 rifles is a large number for just testing. Your book shows a carbine and a musket with modified lever lock by the Russians. The likely reason was the somewhat weak action of the Evans, which could unlock if worn (but that's just a plausible theory).

    Here is the Evans action, not near as strong as Spencer's:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Evans 17.jpg  

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

  18. #62

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    Hello Nick
    Interesting theory, but not work
    I have collected serial no's of war booty winchesters and I found weapons from all contracts (5)
    so you theory that contracts have only made in paper is not right.
    70 000 M 1866 is not big amount compared 600 000 peabody
    Aboult Evans there are some stories, but Russian bought test set what includes carbines and muskets.
    As in my book there are those 3 types of weapons they are a part of this lot.
    Evans did not made the serial no's but I have had in my hands 21 weapons of this lot.
    They all had serial no's and stamp in same tool.
    Biggest is 268 and all of those are in exellent condition so they have not been in the sea.
    I have seen this boat history maybe right.maybe not.
    Those weapons, if right, are not in Russian museums
    The book I made is European military rifles what had accepted oficially use of army.
    as I say in the book Evans was accepted By navy for replase the Albini Baranov rifle.
    Then note the time when the test lot was ordered 1877.
    From what Turkish book is the page where are the orders of winchesters you have in earlier noets.
    When I finnish my work with those serial no's of Turkish winchesters it is surprise for you

  19. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauser 71/84 View Post
    From what Turkish book is the page where are the orders of winchesters you have in earlier noets.
    See post #16, the book is shown there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mauser 71/84 View Post
    When I finnish my work with those serial no's of Turkish winchesters it is surprise for you
    I love surprises!
    Love puns, too: "When I finnish my Finnish book"...
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

  20. #64

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    Results will publish some were else
    In english
    thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Yes, they do. There are several books where I cross-referenced this information:
    Nick,
    You picture a Turkish book which illustrates a Springfield M1866 trapdoor on the cover. Did the Tuerks actually obtain/use this model?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Turk book.jpg  


  22. #66
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    No reports on acquiring Trapdoors, just Winchesters and a large amount of Springfield muskets (I have also seen Colt Special Muskets in Bulgaria, captures or surplus guns). I also wondered why the main picture would be a gun that wasn't in Turkish inventory.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    I've just come back from the History Museum in Pleven (Plevna). Fantastic museum documenting from prehistoric times till the early 20th century. Relevant to this discussion was the exhibit on the captured Turkish weapons from the 1877-78 war.
    There were Peabodies, Sniders, and 6 Winchester 1866 muskets, no carbines. managed to get the serial number off one (114323) which puts it at 1872 manufacture date.
    This is pretty good evidence that they (1866 muskets) were in fact used at the battle of plevna.

    Attachment 2220914Attachment 2220922

  24. #68

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    Thank you for this info.
    I have got all those serial no's from plevna museum.
    Those Winchesters have given to museum 1903-1907 from Russia as well other war booty weapons, gorlovs gatlings ETC.
    I am not able to open the Attacments.
    Did you regognice that those weapons was without rear sights. Interesting.
    In Peterburgs artilley museum also was 6 muskets without rear sights.
    I have made the article ready and I hope it will be published the next issue of Man at Arms magatzine
    pro

  25. #69

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    Hello
    They sent me s/n of 5 muskets and this S/N was not in list.
    this musket is made in 1973 and belonged in the second Ottomans order.
    pro

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyten View Post
    This is pretty good evidence that they (1866 muskets) were in fact used at the battle of plevna.
    No, it is not. I have visited that museum several times - it is in Pleven, but the samples are not necessarily from that battle.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Not sure why the attachments didn't load, ill try now from my phone instead.

    Nick, was going off of what the curator told me. That these were direct samples of war booty from the battle
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P_20170512_132348_1494598642108.jpg  

    P_20170512_132108_LL_1494598673779.jpg  

    P_20170512_132202_1494598691431.jpg  


  28. #72
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    Some of the items are from the siege, but most aren't. The Gatlings, for example are not.

    The inventory of the captured guns at Pleven lists around 200 Win 66, don't remember the exact number.
    Last edited by Nick; 05-12-2017 at 08:21 PM.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

  29. #73

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    Attachment 2221450Hope you see the text.
    as you see in photos muskets häd no rear sights.
    The Winchesters are from Plevna battle. eaven nick is telling something else.
    Winchesters what have rear sights left are not from Plevna battle.
    pro

  30. #74
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    Paavo's attachment:

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Thanks Nick for raising this topic.
    What is completely overlooked in discussions of Plevna is the extent and complexity of the Ottoman defences. There has been a reference (not attributed) of two US officers/observers advising the Ottomans on defensive measures. If that was so and they had experience of Richmond, it may explain why these defences were so formidable. No frontal attack would have any chance of a victory, irrespective of arms then available, and it was not until a later change of command that an successful indirect attack was made.
    Also, there is no focus on the artillery used in the defence, which included the latest Krupp pieces in significant numbers.
    Certainly in my mind the "Furphy" about Winchesters arose with publication of the French article some years after the event.

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    Having read a number of eye witness accounts about the siege at Plevna, they all support the statements made by Nick.
    On the issue of armament, there is a report in the Sydney Morning Herald, dated Friday 17th August 1877 at page 3, relating to this issue.
    It states the Redi battalions were armed with Martini Henry rifles (made by Peabody - my note) with the rest of the infantry and militia being armed with Sniders.
    The artillery were equipped with Krupp cannon and were using modern tactics (sic).
    The Cavalry had sabres and Winchesters. vide: trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13398441.

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    I have always wondered how Turkey was able to buy large quantities of Mausers,when they had a history of default with Peabody and Winchester,which also supplied war materials other than rifles.In fact a shipowner seized a cargo in lieu of payment for transport,not very inspiring stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by staffy View Post
    The Cavalry had sabres and Winchesters. vide: trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13398441.
    Thank you, very interesting article.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Paavo's attachment:

    Still don't see it.
    "Get your facts first and then you can distort 'em as much as you please"--Mark Twain

  36. #80

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    Dear Friends
    Interesting decussions who had used M 1866 winchesters in the war 1877-1878.
    It had any question for me.
    I was investigating is it possible to say what winchesters had ordered Ottomans.
    Now I can say yes. It is possible to say if the M 1866 winchester is a part of Ottomans order.
    What is needed is the photo of wapon and S/N and I can definetly say had the weapon beein it Ottomans hands
    Paavo

    .Attachment 2229042

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    Quote Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
    Still don't see it.
    It comes and goes... The site is acting up again, I am tired of notifying the IT guys about the attachment problems.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    As an aside from this thread, there is an interesting comment by Archibald Forbes who was with the left attack commanded by Schahovskoy(sic) and gives an eye witness of the events.
    On the previous day there was no forward movement "... but a long council of war, from which old Krudener(sic) went away gloomily, predicting defeat; for he had remonstrated against the attempt which was to be made, and which was to be carried out only in obedience to peremptory orders from thee headquarters of the Grand Duke Nicholas ....... Failure was a forgone conclusion from the outset". 'Souvenirs of some Continents', Archibald Forbes, chapter entitled 'Where was Villiers'.

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