Turkish M87 Bayonet Low Serial Number
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Thread: Turkish M87 Bayonet Low Serial Number

  1. #1
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    Default Turkish M87 Bayonet Low Serial Number

    Just received my M87 this morning. This one's made by Alex Coppel. I bought it because I already have a V.C.Schilling & a W.K.C. manufactured M87's. Since I already have three M90's, and three M03's, I got myself an extra Christmas/Hannukah Gift!! Needs a bit of clean up. I looked all over for the serial number. I happened to check out the pommel, because my W.K.C. made M87 is serial numbered on the right pommel! My V.C.Schilling is serialed in the normal place, right cross guard. To my great surprise, it's marked on top of the pommel by mortise, number 003! Lowest number I've ever seen! Seller never noticed it. I fortunately got a Turkish frog for it the other day.Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
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    Very nice indeed! I used to have the full-set of the 1887 makers but have reduced them to just two examples (can't remember which makers off-hand!) as I needed the space - we four live in a small 2-bedroomed flat...!

    Odd place for the serial number though - not seen one there before.

    Julian

    PS: I trust that you celebrate all the holidays, and so both the Eastern and Western Christmases as well???!!!

  3. #3
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    Hi Julian, I didn't realize that the top of scabbard by mouth has sort of a rim on it's circumference. You can see it on PIC 3. This will be my last M87, I have two others. I believe that being number 003, it's very early production. Also, blade lacks a sharp false edge. As I previously mentioned, my M87's are from Alex Coppel, VC Schilling, & WKC. According to Vol III of Carter's "German Bayonets", page 300, besides the three I mentioned, he also listed Simson & Co, &J.P. Sauer as maker's. The contract called for 500,000 rifles which needed bayonets, & 50,000 carbines. Never saw an M87 carbine! As we know, the M90 rifle came out, Turkey cancelled the M87, & received M90's. I have VC Schilling, Simson & Co, & J.P. Sauer on my three M90's. As far as I can make out, I have WKC, and one J.P Sauer on my three M03's. My wife of 36 years is Fay, she's Greek Orthodox. She was born there. I'm also Greek on both sides, but we're Jewish. So, we have Christmas decorations, & a Menorah. Most Greek Jews were pretty tough, & fought in Greek Army repelling the Italian Invasion in 1940. After the German's invaded many became Partisans & continued fighting. Again, Happy Holiday to you & your's!!
    Last edited by GreekMan44; 12-25-2016 at 02:59 PM.

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    I finally got to cleaning up my Turk M87! I sprayed the scabbard a few days with LEXOL to soften the leather. It was hard, seam split in places, and shrunk about 1 1/2 inches. I put metal clamps (used in office to keep papers together) at least it got rid of the space between seams on scabbard back. Now it only has 1 inch shrinkage. Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1820258 Big job was eliminating the rust. Fortunately, it was surface. I used NOXON on the grips to break down years of hardened grease, down to wood grain. I removed it from the rivets as well. The markings now show up, the NOXON removed the grease that dried in them. Next, I used a furniture restorer to make the "thirsty" wood grips look good. Finally, a Turkish frog I got week before the bayonet. I anticipated I would win it!

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    Congrats, it looks great ! I have one of my own, so if you permit me a begginers question: How can you know wich maker is, are they specific markins ? I examined my piece and is all written with arabic letters...

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    Hi Hadrius, Glad to see a new member! I previously posted the list if the Solingen companies that made the early Turkish Mauser bayonets. That's how I know them.. They were published in Carter's book of German Bayonets, Vol 3. I'll see if I made a PIC of it. Regards, Jack, And welcome aboard!! I just found the Turkish maker's list, a few of my bayonets (not including my new M87) and my favorite Turkish Soldier's PIC!Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #7
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    Thank you for the fanastic info GreekMan ! It's very hard to find here, that kind of knowlege, or specialised chemicals for restoring. Using your pics, I managed to decipher that my piece was manufactured in 1895 (1311 arabic year), by Simson &Co - Suhl. The serial number is not yet visible, I will try to clean it, then I will upload some pictures. I also have some ploblems wih the scabbard wich is largely split on the sewing. I am very excited about finally finding out what the markings on my bayo mean ! Thank you again !

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreekMan44 View Post
    ... my favorite Turkish Soldier's PIC!
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    That's a nice collection that you have there Jack! Makes me wish that I hadn't parted with my 'spares', but I needed to make room for my growing collection of 98/05's... The photograph is a fun one - and if you don't have a date for it then it was taken before 1908/1909, when the Turkish army (except possibly the Imperial Guard) dropped the fez these guys have and adopted the Kabalak headgear.

    Julian

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ID:	1826425Hi Julian, Another thing I forgot to mention, one of my M90's & one of my M03's have the quillion bent toward the blade about 1 inch or so. I would imagine the Turkish quillions on the M87 as well are the largest ever on a sword bayonet. They probably got stuck on other equiptment. I have the M35 cutdowns, and collected them with the regulation & modified quillions as well. With the addition of this M87, I have 3 of each uncut M87, M90, & M03 bayonets. I recall them being modified with quillion bent when I bought them in the 1970's & 80's in Athens Flea Market! Thanks for your comments. I'm showing 4 examples!
    Last edited by GreekMan44; 12-29-2016 at 08:59 AM. Reason: PIC's

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    Hi Hadrius, You can remove dried grease with an ammonia based product like NOXON. I have been using it almost 50 years to degrease bayonets & gun parts. You need a leather preservative like LEXOL. My new M87 is split in back by seam for about 3 inches. Send some PIC's of your bayonet. Regards, Jack

  12. #11
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    Nice bayonet Jack, my M87 was cut down, can you read the arabic year on the base of the blade, on my bayonet?
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    Thank you in advance, Panos

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    Yasoo Panos, The manufacturing date is 1206=1888. The serial number on the cross guard reads 88341. I picked up a lot of similar Turkish bayonets at the Monesteraki Flea Market in Athens many years ago. I used to bring home at least 10 Greek & Turkish bayonets, & one M09 Turkish Cavalry Sword! I also got my Greek converted Turkish M90 bayonet to fit the Greek M03 Mannlicher. I never saw an altered M87, nor did I ever find one in Athens. Interesting bayonet. When I first saw your PIC's your bayonet looked like a British P07! Nice bayonet, Jack
    Last edited by GreekMan44; 12-29-2016 at 06:10 PM.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreekMan44 View Post
    Hi Hadrius, You can remove dried grease with an ammonia based product like NOXON. I have been using it almost 50 years to degrease bayonets & gun parts. You need a leather preservative like LEXOL. My new M87 is split in back by seam for about 3 inches. Send some PIC's of your bayonet. Regards, Jack
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hi Greekman, unfortunately NOXON and LEXOL are not available in Romania, I was thinking about ordering them, but since the petroleum based liquids are banned by the postal service, I will manage somehow.... Here are some pics of my bayonet. Regards, Adrian

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    Hi Adrian, The muzzle ring looks to far away from grips to be an M87. I believe you show the later M90. Hard to read the Turkish date, looks like 1311 or 1893. Last date on the M87 is 1890. You have the same problem as me on the open seam on the back. Too bad you are not able to buy LEXOL or NOXON. Good Luck, Jack
    Last edited by GreekMan44; 12-31-2016 at 02:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreekMan44 View Post
    Yasoo Panos, The manufacturing date is 1206=1888. The serial number on the cross guard reads 88341. I picked up a lot of similar Turkish bayonets at the Monesteraki Flea Market in Athens many years ago. I used to bring home at least 10 Greek & Turkish bayonets, & one M09 Turkish Cavalry Sword! I also got my Greek converted Turkish M90 bayonet to fit the Greek M03 Mannlicher. I never saw an altered M87, nor did I ever find one in Athens. Interesting bayonet. When I first saw your PIC's your bayonet looked like a British P07! Nice bayonet, Jack
    Thank you Jack, in my collection I have also all the alteretions from turkish bayos to Greek rifle Mannlicher Schoenauer and some M1890 and M1903 unaltered.

    Happy new year.

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ID:	1833489Hi Panos, Chronia Poula!!! I'm showing an Ex-Turkish M03 altered in 1922 to fit the Mannlicher. I need to find the M90 alteration. I'm wondering if Balkan Country bayonets still show up at the Monesteraki Flea Mkt in Athens. In '88, a guy had a warehouse full of Greek M34 helmets. They were infront of his store on the curb! I bought 7 of them, all the room I could spare in my luggage. I had to make room for my bayonets. I probably paid about $10 each. Kept the Olive colored one & the Dark Green one (For Police) and sold the others at a Gun Show for $100 each! I have all makers of the T-Back M03/14 bayonets. Also The M78 Gras & the conversions. I do favor Greek & Turkish bayonets! Some old pictures. Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1833273 Good collecting, Regards, Jack
    Last edited by GreekMan44; 12-31-2016 at 03:23 PM. Reason: PIC's

  18. #17
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    You have a very good collection Jack (and huge also). In now days are very difficult to find bayonets in good condition at the Monastiraki flea market. That includes helmets and other militaria. If you find something good, the prices are very high. You were lucky back then and you bought all the good staff in very cheap prices. Nowdays you buy cheaper from the internet auctions, than the flea markets.

    Regards Panos

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    Hi Panos, Thanks for reply. Last time I visited Monesteraki, the dealers had crappy bayonets, rusted, no scabbards. We are lucky with Militaria & Gun shows in the US. You get your best buys, those people who buy at shows put stuff on EBAY!! Regards, Jack

  20. #19
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    Here is my low number M1887. Not as low as GreekMan's, but still fairly low, 863 (or is it 8630?). Most importantly, it comes with this long handle!

    Can you tell me who the manufacturer is - Weyresberg, Kirschbaum & Cie?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Mauser 1887 Bayonet -1.jpg  

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    Last edited by Nick; 04-19-2017 at 09:02 AM.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Hi Nick, yes the manufacturer of your piece seems to be WKC - Solingen, although the writing looks a little different from the "official" one. Congrats for the find !

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    I agree with Hadrius, manufactured by Weyersberg Kirschbaum & Company, Solingen. Serial number 863! Nice bayonet! The Turks "Turked" them with 10" blades, and either modified muzzle rings, or put on a new one. I have both versions. Interesting that they all appear to be made in 1890. Good to find an unaltered one with scabbard after being 127 years old! Pano's alteration looks like it still fits an Model 1887 rifle.

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    The rifles are even harder to find than the bayonets. Here is the bayonet's counterpart:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Mauser 1887-1R.jpg  

    Mauser 1887-8.jpg  

    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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