1911A1...........in 7.62x25?
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Thread: 1911A1...........in 7.62x25?

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    Default 1911A1...........in 7.62x25?

    This strange animal belongs to Zeebill, and he and I have been sorting, selling and buying some of the collection of our late friend Kevin Carney, over the past 2 years he has been gone. Kevin was a big chinese collector, and had North China Arms and Antiques out of his home back in the 90's. Alot of the stuff he has somehow were connected to china, so we have found some neat stuff. This piece is one of them.

    It's a 1911A1 that is chambered in 7.62x25. Has a colt frame, and a Ithaca slide. I've shot it a few times, and I have to say it is alot more fun than a regular 1911. Only thing in the gun that has been changed is the mag and barrel, the mag is I believe made from a Tokarov magazine, but we haven't compared the two to see exactly what has been changed. The barrel has me scratching my head. It has fresh looking lathe marks on the barrel, and the chamber end has grind marks, but you can still make out the "COLT 45 A". Bore in it is brand new, no marks pitting or anything! The mag holds 9, but will only reliably run 7, any more than 7 it stovepipes them.

    Gun has no import marks, is all USGI from what I can tell. Grips are some form of plastic, and the finish looks like a parkarizing over a old pitted finish. She's loose and got alot of miles on her. It has faint chinese characters on the right side leaving me to believe this to be a chinese conversion?? Who knows.

    Kinda want to put this on some steel and see how it does...














    RIP Kevin Carney 10/3/14

    They'll always be a empty chair at the gunshows for you buddy.

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    Hopefully you will get some replies about this one. A 1911 in 7.62x25 is something I've always thought would be super cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaegermeister View Post
    Hopefully you will get some replies about this one. A 1911 in 7.62x25 is something I've always thought would be super cool.
    Even cooler to shoot
    RIP Kevin Carney 10/3/14

    They'll always be a empty chair at the gunshows for you buddy.

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    Hi Joe,
    Here's a mag that came in a Yugo Tokarev without an added safety. It stuck a quarter inch past the grip and didn't cycle snap caps. I asked a dealer in vintage mags if he could ID it and he told me it was for a pistol like yours.

    Len
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails image.jpg   image.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Len S View Post
    Hi Joe,
    Here's a mag that came in a Yugo Tokarev without an added safety. It stuck a quarter inch past the grip and didn't cycle snap caps. I asked a dealer in vintage mags if he could ID it and he told me it was for a pistol like yours.

    Len
    Very interesting! I will have to take pics of this mag i have and compare...

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    Similar conversions were found in VN, but the ones I've seen were very poor looking compared to yours. A translation of the Chinese characters might be helpful.
    Always looking for interesting 7.62x25 Tokarev and 7.63 Mauser cartridges!!!
    Member: International Ammunition Assoc. (IAA), European Cartridge Research Assoc. (ECRA). Ask me about membership!

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    sold on about 6yrs ago,

    Dad had it in his inventory,

    Rem Rand , mostly correct too, in 7.62

    barrel looked like it was sleeved , as in the locking lugs looked right, but there was a line where you could tell it was drilled out and an insert crudely installed,
    mag well had been beaten larger, and had actually cracked or split a bit on the front strap (you could see thru the split, just splinter of light)

    no mag, and never had the chance to shoot it,

    IIRC the breech face on the slide was brazed or silver soldiered up a bit, ,

    even had the original keyes grips,,


    he had bought it from a Vietnam Vet, I cannot remember how much I sold it for, (Sold it on gunbroker)
    what's so funny about peace love and understanding?

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    Is the barrel sleeved ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DK PHILLIPS View Post
    Is the barrel sleeved ?
    Not from what I can see. I may have to borrow it from bill and get more barrel pics. Won't see it again until Friday.

    outside of barrel looks turned on a lathe still has the marks.... Chamber end still has "COLT 45 A" legible in left side. Does the barrel thread into the lug portion?
    RIP Kevin Carney 10/3/14

    They'll always be a empty chair at the gunshows for you buddy.

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    I've had two in my Vietnam collection over the years and both were very nicely done, not crude at
    all as some might expect. The fastest way to detect is to look at the mag well which had to be machined out to accept the different magazine.

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    As Badash5946 stated, several of these are known to have come back from Vietnam. But, it is my understanding that these are a Chinese conversion.
    Several hundred were imported from China in the late 80s or 90s ( until the ban went into effect). The story at that time was the communist chinese inherited lots of 45s given as aid to the nationalists during WW II. After a few years they ran out of .45 ammo or it simply was too difficult to readily get it everywhere given the rudimentary Chinese transportation in the 50s. So, the .45s were converted as described because they had tokarev ammo for their tokarevs. Yours is one and I have an import one.
    The magazine looks like a stretched out tokarev magazine. Looks like they simply made a tokarev mag longer.
    the ones from Vietnam were apparently given by the Chinese to the Vietnamese as foreign aid.
    They are a neat and most unusual gun. Rarely come up for sale and priced accordingly.
    Anyway, that's what I was told by the importer and other Chinese exporters at that time. Works for me.

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    I own a similar 1911A1 with bring back papers from Vietnam. Remington frame with a Colt slide

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    With 45-colt markings and the bore larger than 7.62...Sieving is the method that comes to mind!
    Adding meat to the bore for filling up the 45 diameter to 30 cal. Proportions.
    Wondering if one was fitted with a new made in that cal. Barrel ....how accurate they could be made?
    [Off topic a little Didn't colt make a few (short run) in 9 mm Steyr ?) ]
    Very interesting find....with a good history supported to the war in Nam.

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    In the early 1970's I acquired one from a Viet Nam vet who was looking to get an outboard motor for his boat. I bought it and sold it about a year later. It was one of the hand made jobs. I didn't think it safe to shoot so I didn't try to fire it. Sold it to VN collector.
    Bill


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    Quote Originally Posted by colt thompson View Post
    I own a similar 1911A1 with bring back papers from Vietnam. Remington frame with a Colt slide
    This is one I would love to see. They are not often found with the papers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DK PHILLIPS View Post
    With 45-colt markings and the bore larger than 7.62...Sieving is the method that comes to mind!
    Adding meat to the bore for filling up the 45 diameter to 30 cal. Proportions.
    Wondering if one was fitted with a new made in that cal. Barrel ....how accurate they could be made?
    [Off topic a little Didn't colt make a few (short run) in 9 mm Steyr ?) ]
    Very interesting find....with a good history supported to the war in Nam.
    Hmm - yes, only way a .45 Auto barrel would work with 7.62 would be using a liner. Some of those can be fitted almost undetectably;

    I would judge not a new-made barrel (surely my choice if given one) because of the partially removed .45 Auto marking;

    Conversion would probably entail replacement of the .45 Auto ejector for one intended for 9 mm Parabellum or (maybe) .38 Super. Same for extractor;

    Magazines would be a bit of a chore, as Tokarev magazines would likely require mods both the mag well - has to be lengthened - and magazine (TT33 lips are intended to work with the feed lips that are integral to frame + firing mechanism of Petter type; possibly invented by Tokarev and then copied by Petter);

    9mm Steyr made by Colt? Don't know. Should have been possible as case diameter and LOA is similar enough to .38 ACP/.38 Super to work, just have to be careful to headspace on case mouth (like Starline .38 Super Comp currently available). I think either Star or Astra (and/or possibly Llama) made some 9mm Steyr and 7.63 Mouser back in the 1930s. I would like one of those.
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

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    I can see the line on the breech face and feed ramp where the liner was installed. Really, that is the only way using an original barrel. I've seen a couple of these over the years and they usually use a modified Tok magazine. Mag wells are either squished to lengthen them as Lyman stated or, I have seen them filed to gain the length which resulted in a paper thin front strap.
    Over 40 combat veteran with no patience or tolerance for stupid shit, proceed at your own discretion

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    Quote Originally Posted by WpnsMan View Post
    I can see the line on the breech face and feed ramp where the liner was installed. Really, that is the only way using an original barrel. I've seen a couple of these over the years and they usually use a modified Tok magazine. Mag wells are either squished to lengthen them as Lyman stated or, I have seen them filed to gain the length which resulted in a paper thin front strap.
    Here's a couple of shots of one I sold a couple of years ago. It had actually been fitted with a shoulder stock. Unfortunately I can't find any head on shots of the barrel but you can see how the mag well was modified for the Tok mag.

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    You guys have really outdid yourself on this one!!! WOW, thanks for all the info. I'll be back at zeebills on Friday, and will try to get some more pics of barrel, breech face, and the mag well. Bill I think did mention he might have found a import mark....

    I'm trying to drag him in here, but he likes to live in the mosin board
    RIP Kevin Carney 10/3/14

    They'll always be a empty chair at the gunshows for you buddy.

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    Oh, and for posterity sake, what does something like this run for if you can even price it?? Bill isn't gonna ever sell it, but interesting to know the market...
    RIP Kevin Carney 10/3/14

    They'll always be a empty chair at the gunshows for you buddy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe7170 View Post
    Oh, and for posterity sake, what does something like this run for if you can even price it?? Bill isn't gonna ever sell it, but interesting to know the market...
    Unfortunately mine never sold that high on Gunbroker. Even with the shoulder stock system it only brought $1300 - 1400; I can't recall exactly. If one had paper, who knows though.

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    Several years ago someone was selling new 1911 barrels in 7.62x25 on Gunbroker. I was seriously looking into buying one but did not after researching what the conversion entailed. If I recall correctly there were around a dozen available and was listed for over half a year. The price was reasonable at around $90 to $125.

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    Bill brought that down when he came to visit last week.
    The mag well looked like it was hogged out on the front end, but nicely done. The frame metal was very thin in comparison to a .45 ACP 1911 frame in the rounded section of the magazine well.
    The magazine itself appears to be a regular 7.62x25 Tokarev magazine with no modifications that I could tell.
    NACO NJ were the marks I could make out on one side of the frame.
    So I am going to assume Navy Arms Company.
    The slide had some extra work done around the ejection port toward the front lower section of the opening.
    The Chinese markings were in a box shape that is seen in the pictures Joe posted above.
    The grips are unlike anything I've ever seen before, but fit the frame nicely.
    I didn't think to look for a liner/sleeve/insert in the barrel, it just looked like a very thick tube of rifled steel.
    Over-all it's a very interesting piece and appeared to be very solid and safe to shoot. I saw nothing that looked like it was homemade or jungle workshop about it.
    It had an arsenal look to the entire piece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WVchuck View Post
    Bill brought that down when he came to visit last week.
    The mag well looked like it was hogged out on the front end, but nicely done. The frame metal was very thin in comparison to a .45 ACP 1911 frame in the rounded section of the magazine well.
    The magazine itself appears to be a regular 7.62x25 Tokarev magazine with no modifications that I could tell.
    NACO NJ were the marks I could make out on one side of the frame.
    So I am going to assume Navy Arms Company.
    The slide had some extra work done around the ejection port toward the front lower section of the opening.
    The Chinese markings were in a box shape that is seen in the pictures Joe posted above.
    The grips are unlike anything I've ever seen before, but fit the frame nicely.
    I didn't think to look for a liner/sleeve/insert in the barrel, it just looked like a very thick tube of rifled steel.
    Over-all it's a very interesting piece and appeared to be very solid and safe to shoot. I saw nothing that looked like it was homemade or jungle workshop about it.
    It had an arsenal look to the entire piece.

    Thanks for the input Chuck! Yeah, I hadn't noticed alot of the stuff on it, but then again I have not really handled all that many USGI 1911's, so as far as they go I'm a newbe. I know the 1911 design, as almost all my STAR pistols are based on the 1911, but as far as a usgi .45 1911, it is foreign to me. I did study that barrel quite closely when I cleaned it Saturday, and your right, it didn't look lined right off the bat, the rifled part anyways, looked solid thick and fresh turned on a lathe. The chamber end had me confused though with the old partial markings, and grind marks....
    RIP Kevin Carney 10/3/14

    They'll always be a empty chair at the gunshows for you buddy.

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    See Joe if you shut your mouth when you are dumb about something there are enough smart people on here to write and comment on things that in the end people will not know how dumb you really are! I was really in the dark about this and only found threads that seemed like maybe they were stories with nothing like the info people have added on this thread. I will say one thing in certainty this pistol seems very well made and shoots like a dream other than using my usual two handed hold this gun has a nasty habit of throwing empties right back in your face. As WVChuck said it appears to have import marks on it and they also appear to have a coating that is covering the whole pistol over them other than the J in the NJ stamping. That is puzzling to me?

    I do know I will not sell this one for sure as I am a horrid pistol shot and this gun sends bullets where I want them to go which is a great feeling. All the possible history with this pistol is totally fascinating and I hope we can even find out more about it as we go on. Thanks for all the help folks! Maybe if I absorb all or part of this info I might be considered smart in a one horse race somewhere? Bill
    zeebill live from the hills of West Virginia!

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    Ah Bill, what would you do without me?? Guess you'd still be trying to describe the pistol to everyone!! See you'd only find all this out with pictures bill!! And about that horse race, they wrote a song about that..... Something like the old grey mare she ain't what she used to be.......



    I'll try to get more pics of the frame, import marks, barrel lining, breech face, anything I can Friday I recon. Gunshow we're doing this weekend has wifi, so I should be able to upload to you folks from the show
    RIP Kevin Carney 10/3/14

    They'll always be a empty chair at the gunshows for you buddy.

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    I'm learning more here in WVa About a gun I did not know existed ...thanks

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    Years ago an FFL friend got in one from Century Arms. He played with it for a month or 2 and then sold it.
    My idea of border control is m-60 machineguns every 100yds with interlocking fields of fire.

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    Years ago I saw a barrel offered on the internet and decided to take up the challenge of adapting it to one of my 1911s.
    I used my 38 super since it has the same cartridge rim diameter and thus allowed the extractor and ejector to fit.
    I was able to get four rounds in an unmodified 38 super magazine - at an angle since the ammo was too long for the
    magazine; but they fed and functioned from the mag to chamber ok.

    First issue I encountered was failure of the slide to cycle, due to the low mass of the bullet (vs 38 super). Tied
    different strength recoil springs and settled for 10 pound and it worked fine.

    Next problem was an inability to eject a loaded cartridge, it was just too long for the ejection port; this created a sticky situation as I was also unable to move the slide to the rear as the ejector prevented rearward movement. Not wanting to alter my original pistol in any permanent way, I decided to stop there and worked out a technique for removing loaded cartridges: first remove the mag, then pull the slide back as far as it goes, then push the cartridge down from the top out thru the bottom of the handle (hard to do with just 2 hands).

    Am thinking of handloading some cartridges using a .32 acp bullet to get the cartridge length down to where the loads
    can eject.

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    I have a slide and barrel that has been modified like that. Bought it a long while back. I was told is was a bring
    back from Vietnam. I thought about finding a 1911a1 frame and modifying it to complete the slide and barrel, but just can't bring myself to messing with an original 1911a1 frame. Maybe someday I'll get lucky and find a frame that's already been modified to complete the gun. That would be the day after I win the lottery.

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    That thing is drool over worthy! Thanks for sharing.


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    Quote Originally Posted by CWheat777 View Post
    I have a slide and barrel that has been modified like that. Bought it a long while back. I was told is was a bring
    back from Vietnam. I thought about finding a 1911a1 frame and modifying it to complete the slide and barrel, but just can't bring myself to messing with an original 1911a1 frame. Maybe someday I'll get lucky and find a frame that's already been modified to complete the gun. That would be the day after I win the lottery.
    Get something like a Rock Island and modify that frame, would be my solution.
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

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    Conversion work was done in China. Navy Arms imported a number. I looked at what they had in the storeroom and bought one without a magazine and later a mint version with magazine. The magazines are US issue reworked so that the sides are not parallel but wedge shaped. The extent of rework to the slide would seem to exclude Vietnam jungle workshops from contention. Possibly China shipped some South.

    I have a US carbine reworked by China to 7.63 Mauser as well. And there are the Japanese rifles they converted to 7.62x39mm.

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    [QUOTE=breakeyp;6471810]Conversion work was done in China. Navy Arms imported a number. I looked at what they had in the storeroom and bought one without a magazine and later a mint version with magazine. The magazines are US issue reworked so that the sides are not parallel but wedge shaped. The extent of rework to the slide would seem to exclude Vietnam jungle workshops from contention. Possibly China shipped some South.

    I have a US carbine reworked by China to 7.63 Mauser as well. And there are the Japanese rifles they converted to 7.62x39mm.[/QUOTE

    I have a Japanese 38 carbine out in the shop that is converted to 7.62x39mm with a chrome lined SKS barrel on it complete with the blade bayonet from the same Kevin Carney collection. We also have a few other conversions in the collection of the same sort. Bill
    zeebill live from the hills of West Virginia!

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